Superstition Toponymy with Prof. Aubrey Drury

somehiker

Silver Member
May 1, 2007
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Ultimately, I believe that the Dons are going to be recognized by acidemia as keepers of lost history. I understand the eccentricity, their promotion of tourism and local ledgends, but to dismiss the Dons and those that follow their traditions outright is shortsighted.

Let me offer one example (a detail) of legend explained. It doesn’t belong in this thread and some of you will dismiss the importance of what I am sharing, but for those who are out there looking, this and paying attention to the ground beneath your feet might prove helpful.

View attachment 1738843

The person who shared this with me isn’t interested in being identified, is closer culturally to those mentioned in this paragraph than most of us and is dedicated to the preservation of history.

Natural caliche cement isn’t impervious to weather and the extreme temperatures of the Superstitions. So, if this paragraph is true, some of this material would, over time, loosen, crack, chip, erode and eventually reveal the “stout logs” that it covered. Unless a bonding agent was added.

As it turns out, this bonding agent described to me as being similar to Elmer’s Glue, is made from fermented cactus. First thorns are removed and then the cactus gathered. It is chopped and placed into a container of water. That container is placed in direct sunlight for several days and the mixture left to ferment. It may also be boiled to speed up the process.

The chopped cactus and excess water is removed leaving behind “cactus juice”. It’s a thick, gooey material that once added to caliche makes it (the caliche) incredibly strong and resistant to the elements. How much cactus juice to caliche mix is determined by practice.

The recipe was apparently rediscovered by historians and published.

So what? Well, hopefully the next time you are in the field, searching, and you think that you are in a promising location, look at the area carefully. The layer of dirt and rock that was used to cover the caliche should have thinned or been washed away exposing this caliche cap. Look again, notice any rocks protruding from the material they rest on. It should look unnatural, like rocks stuck into and partially covered by cement.

Just how Storm gathered this information is another mystery, but I suspect that it came from a trusting native who inherited the story. It’s only an opinion but I think that this paragraph is the single most import clue available to those looking.

Something like this Hal ?
Looks like some kind of covered-up area with a few logs exposed in a couple of spots.
Second shot is from another place up above, on a bluff down at the end of the canyon.
The yellow x marks about where those logs are.....above and behind that weird rock formation and pit.

Sorry they aren't sharper....I would have had to climb down and cross a couple of hundred yards or more of very rough ground to get close enough to even see this stuff.
 

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Hal Croves

Hal Croves

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Sep 25, 2010
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Something like this Hal ?
Looks like some kind of covered-up area with a few logs exposed in a couple of spots.
Second shot is from another place up above, on a bluff down at the end of the canyon.
The yellow x marks about where those logs are.....above and behind that weird rock formation and pit.

Sorry they aren't sharper....I would have had to climb down and cross a couple of hundred yards or more of very rough ground to get close enough to even see this stuff.

Rough ground is what it will take.
I hope that you find something.

Storm's caliche cap mixed with rocks is the giveaway.
It should look like a plastering with protruding rocks.
An exposed "stout log" would be helpful, sawed or hatchet.

With Storm's caliche capped stout logs and the Fish Map, one of you will find something.
When you do, bring back a sample of the caliche for me.
 

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Hal Croves

Hal Croves

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Sep 25, 2010
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Tortilla Flats should be next.

First a few articles about TF and gold.. and the cement tank.

A9D09307-E820-4874-B6B7-A4FC5A6EE455.jpeg D5861699-374E-4C1F-850D-77858D51845B.jpeg 15CD8F37-1DF4-4555-9FC6-7E2081EDBC1E.jpeg
 

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Hal Croves

Hal Croves

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"I suspect most of the major landmarks had been named by locals....prospectors and cattlemen mostly....but also army personnel and even Indian scouts (in their own languages originally) from the 1860's into the early 1900's, well before #88 and the Roosevelt Dam were constructed and Drury and the Southern Pacific Railroad Co. entered the picture with their tourist brochure and map."

I think that you nailed it.
Which gets to the heart of this forum or its purpose.
Before he died, Waltz should have been able to communicate using location names. Geronimo Head may not have been one of them.
Only a guess but it should have been named sometime between 1909 - 1917.

Here, Superstition Mountain is known/used publicly in 1874.

"Lieutenants Ward and Poillon with their command were at Florence on the 25th, preparing to scout Superstition Mountain"

The Citizen
28 March 1874
Gold on Superstition Mountain

Are we not allowed to edit older posts?
 

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markmar

Silver Member
Oct 17, 2012
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Ultimately, I believe that the Dons are going to be recognized by acidemia as keepers of lost history. I understand the eccentricity, their promotion of tourism and local ledgends, but to dismiss the Dons and those that follow their traditions outright is shortsighted.

Let me offer one example (a detail) of legend explained. It doesn’t belong in this thread and some of you will dismiss the importance of what I am sharing, but for those who are out there looking, this and paying attention to the ground beneath your feet might prove helpful.

View attachment 1738843

The person who shared this with me isn’t interested in being identified, is closer culturally to those mentioned in this paragraph than most of us and is dedicated to the preservation of history.

Natural caliche cement isn’t impervious to weather and the extreme temperatures of the Superstitions. So, if this paragraph is true, some of this material would, over time, loosen, crack, chip, erode and eventually reveal the “stout logs” that it covered. Unless a bonding agent was added.

As it turns out, this bonding agent described to me as being similar to Elmer’s Glue, is made from fermented cactus. First thorns are removed and then the cactus gathered. It is chopped and placed into a container of water. That container is placed in direct sunlight for several days and the mixture left to ferment. It may also be boiled to speed up the process.

The chopped cactus and excess water is removed leaving behind “cactus juice”. It’s a thick, gooey material that once added to caliche makes it (the caliche) incredibly strong and resistant to the elements. How much cactus juice to caliche mix is determined by practice.

The recipe was apparently rediscovered by historians and published.

So what? Well, hopefully the next time you are in the field, searching, and you think that you are in a promising location, look at the area carefully. The layer of dirt and rock that was used to cover the caliche should have thinned or been washed away exposing this caliche cap. Look again, notice any rocks protruding from the material they rest on. It should look unnatural, like rocks stuck into and partially covered by cement.

Just how Storm gathered this information is another mystery, but I suspect that it came from a trusting native who inherited the story. It’s only an opinion but I think that this paragraph is the single most import clue available to those looking.

Hal

I believe the activities which are described in the text, occured in 1882.
From other activities which occured after 1882 and are revealed by different stories and clues, John Reed and his father have uncovered and have unfilled the mine from the text in 1888 and re-covered it again only with the materials they found upon the mine ( dust ,rocks and logs but not calishe ).
The other mine which was left uncovered by the Apache because was in a very remote area, was covered over by Waltz in the manner he was described.
So both mines are now covered over, but the materials used for that purpose were only logs, dust and rocks.
Maybe the caliche was used in a different place which should stop someone to go further to the mines region.
 

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Hal Croves

Hal Croves

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Sep 25, 2010
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Hal

I believe the activities which are described in the text, occured in 1882.
From other activities which occured after 1882 and are revealed by different stories and clues, John Reed and his father have uncovered and have unfilled the mine from the text in 1888 and re-covered it again only with the materials they found upon the mine ( dust ,rocks and logs but not calishe ).
The other mine which was left uncovered by the Apache because was in a very remote area, was covered over by Waltz in the maner he was described.
So both mines are now covered over, but the materials used for that purpose were only logs, dust and rocks.
Maybe the caliche was used in a different place which should stop someone to go further to the mines region.

Difficult to put a date to it but if the story is true, and if you believe that the Fish Map is credible as I do, than its clear that we are talking about a series of mines from the Salt River to the base of Weaver's Needle. Waltz may have found one and concealed it again as you describe. If you superimpose the fish map onto a map of the Superstitions and correct the scale, search areas can be defined. Pick one and cover it carefully. And if a mine is found in one of these search areas, chances are they all can be found.

History gets (re)written if a discovery is ever made public.
And the Fish Map, already priceless in my mind, would become priceless.

Storms caliche and the Fish Map.
 

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markmar

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Oct 17, 2012
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Difficult to put a date to it but if the story is true, and if you believe that the Fish Map is credible as I do, than its clear that we are talking about a series of mines from the Salt River to the base of Weaver's Needle. Waltz may have found one and concealed it again as you describe. If you superimpose the fish map onto a map of the Superstitions and correct the scale, search areas can be defined. Pick one and cover it carefully. And if a mine is found in one of these search areas, chances are they all can be found.

History gets written if a discovery is ever made public.
And the Fish Map, already priceless in my mind, would become priceless.

Storms caliche and the Fish Map.

IMHO, the Peralta/Fish map is about 50% accurate in topography. Nobody will find a mine using this map like didn't find any mine the owners of the Fish map in post Peralta era.
The Peraltas had an unique method in drawing and in encrypting maps. They would modified distances and angles and then they would write them using an algorithm with the X ( Roman ten number ) in the mix. The place/manner that they would put the Xs in regards to each other, would " tell " if there would be angles, distances, addition or multiplication.
 

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Hal Croves

Hal Croves

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Sep 25, 2010
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IMHO, the Peralta/Fish map is about 50% accurate in topography. Nobody will find a mine using this map like didn't find any mine the owners of the Fish map in post Peralta era.
The Peraltas have an unique method in drawing and in encrypting maps. They would modified distances and angles and then they would write them using an algorithm with the X ( Roman ten number ) in the mix. The place/manner that they would put the Xs in regards to each other, would " tell " if there would be angles, distances, addition or multiplication.

Sounds complicated.
It would also require some explaining to be useful and being familiar with the Peralta "method".
I wasn't aware that there was one.


1848 would have been a good time for Mexican miners in the Superstitions to record a map.
To understand why, one needs to know more than a little about that war.


0E9C214E-3C3E-4E6D-AFFC-8E403815312B.jpeg 892AD389-3229-4118-BA26-E701C43FAC6B.jpeg 58757EA0-7D3C-4076-B742-3B8C2F857828.jpeg

22C3FCD0-A2DF-4EF5-8762-D9B94BBE3516.jpeg
 

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Hal Croves

Hal Croves

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Hal-those are great! Do you have a date that the articles were written?

I have gotten lazy with the credits and dates.
Sorry for that.

The two about Superstition Mountain are 1893.
The others 1906 & 1907.

When I get home tonight I will post links and moving forward I will do a better job with notes.


I read an article last night about a cowboy encountering a 20’ snake that chased him offf Superstition Mountain.
Seemed credible enough.
 

PotBelly Jim

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Dec 8, 2017
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Ultimately, I believe that the Dons are going to be recognized by acidemia as keepers of lost history. I understand the eccentricity, their promotion of tourism and local ledgends, but to dismiss the Dons and those that follow their traditions outright is shortsighted.

Let me offer one example (a detail) of legend explained. It doesn’t belong in this thread and some of you will dismiss the importance of what I am sharing, but for those who are out there looking, this and paying attention to the ground beneath your feet might prove helpful.

View attachment 1738843

The person who shared this with me isn’t interested in being identified, is closer culturally to those mentioned in this paragraph than most of us and is dedicated to the preservation of history.

Natural caliche cement isn’t impervious to weather and the extreme temperatures of the Superstitions. So, if this paragraph is true, some of this material would, over time, loosen, crack, chip, erode and eventually reveal the “stout logs” that it covered. Unless a bonding agent was added.

As it turns out, this bonding agent described to me as being similar to Elmer’s Glue, is made from fermented cactus. First thorns are removed and then the cactus gathered. It is chopped and placed into a container of water. That container is placed in direct sunlight for several days and the mixture left to ferment. It may also be boiled to speed up the process.

The chopped cactus and excess water is removed leaving behind “cactus juice”. It’s a thick, gooey material that once added to caliche makes it (the caliche) incredibly strong and resistant to the elements. How much cactus juice to caliche mix is determined by practice.

The recipe was apparently rediscovered by historians and published.

So what? Well, hopefully the next time you are in the field, searching, and you think that you are in a promising location, look at the area carefully. The layer of dirt and rock that was used to cover the caliche should have thinned or been washed away exposing this caliche cap. Look again, notice any rocks protruding from the material they rest on. It should look unnatural, like rocks stuck into and partially covered by cement.

Just how Storm gathered this information is another mystery, but I suspect that it came from a trusting native who inherited the story. It’s only an opinion but I think that this paragraph is the single most import clue available to those looking.

So did this guy:

View attachment 1739218

And, strangely enough, the caliche cap just happens to be on Geronimo Head:icon_study:
 

markmar

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Oct 17, 2012
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Or...the guy was just repeating a Barry Storm story he had read a few years earlier?:icon_scratch:

The most possible. IMO, Storm had some good info about clues for mines and treasure, but were all mixed together and half details, like what a native Indian would give away to a Gringo.
 

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somehiker

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There is a dig up there. But they didn't go very deep, or find anything worth the effort so far as I could tell.
It's all tuffa with thin veins of calcite....no caliche in sight.
 

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