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  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oroblanco View Post
    It was linked via the PSMs, which however actually don't have anything to do with the lost mine of Jacob Waltz.
    Since the PSM’s have not been deciphered, and no one has found the LDM, how can you defend your position that the two have nothing to do with each other?
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  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by alan m View Post
    Since the PSM’s have not been deciphered, and no one has found the LDM, how can you defend your position that the two have nothing to do with each other?
    The PSMs have been "deciphered" so many times it is beyond counting. Waltz never said a single word about any stone maps. Nothing on the PSMs shows any hint of ANY kind of link to the lost gold mine of Jacob Waltz. Prove I am wrong. I will wait.
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  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oroblanco View Post
    The PSMs have been "deciphered" so many times it is beyond counting. Waltz never said a single word about any stone maps. Nothing on the PSMs shows any hint of ANY kind of link to the lost gold mine of Jacob Waltz. Prove I am wrong. I will wait.
    I do not have to prove your statement, pro or con, I asked a simple question, I am not interested in getting in a pissing contest with you, so take your attitude elswhere.
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    Not everything that can be counted, counts
    Not everything that counts, can be counted

  4. #19
    ca
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    Quote Originally Posted by ConceptualizedNetherlandr View Post
    Far be it from me to derail this, but can someone point out the nexus with DLM?
    "DLM" ?......nothing.

    LDM......maybe, since there is a chance that Waltz's source of gold had, according to his own testimony, been exploited by Mexicans before him. Many believe the stone maps were created by a Peralta, and the Peralta family is believed to have been based in Sonora at the time, and may have roots that go as far back as the earliest days of the conquest of Mexico....ergo=nexus
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  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by somehiker View Post
    "DLM" ?......nothing.

    LDM......maybe, since there is a chance that Waltz's source of gold had, according to his own testimony, been exploited by Mexicans before him. Many believe the stone maps were created by a Peralta, and the Peralta family is believed to have been based in Sonora at the time, and may have roots that go as far back as the earliest days of the conquest of Mexico....ergo=nexus
    Where does it say the name Peralta on the Peralta stone maps? Thanks in advance.

    I would point out that the Peralta saga is traceable to an earlier lost mine associated with "Jacobs and Ludi". Almost verbatim.

    Alan M wrote
    I do not have to prove your statement, pro or con, I asked a simple question, I am not interested in getting in a pissing contest with you, so take your attitude elswhere.
    I would point out to you that it was you, who posted this earlier:

    Since the PSM’s have not been deciphered, and no one has found the LDM, how can you defend your position that the two have nothing to do with each other?
    I would also point out that over 200 people have claimed to have found the LDM. If even ONE of these was correct, then the LDM is found. I will take my "attitude" where ever I like, this is a public forum and you do not control it.

    SUPPORT THE BEEF INDUSTRY - EAT BEEF
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  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oroblanco View Post
    Where does it say the name Peralta on the Peralta stone maps? Thanks in advance.

    I would point out that the Peralta saga is traceable to an earlier lost mine associated with "Jacobs and Ludi". Almost verbatim.

    Alan M wrote


    I would point out to you that it was you, who posted this earlier:



    I would also point out that over 200 people have claimed to have found the LDM. If even ONE of these was correct, then the LDM is found. I will take my "attitude" where ever I like, this is a public forum and you do not control it.

    All you do is attack and stir up dog doo, never contributing anything of value, I got you figured out
    Some books are dangerous, not to be opened with impunity.
    Not everything that can be counted, counts
    Not everything that counts, can be counted

  7. #22
    ca
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    Quote Originally Posted by arcana-exploration View Post
    Thanks, Wayne, great info, clearly de Vaca was an idealist and cared nothing about gold except that it might ruin the Pimas way of life. It really is not known how far north he got. My guess the Pimas liked him and could have share info about gold, but he would not have shared it, because he felt it would have turned the Pima's into slaves. He may have shared it with family but maybe not? He would be a stretch, but we really do not know? I know about de Niza. What do you know about the family ties between de Vaca and Peralta? Diego de Peralta y Cabeza Vaca? He was in Peru but somewhere, I feel there may be a link that is of importance. Was there any freelance Spaniards early on that was not officially sanctioned by the crown in the new world.

    Pretty sure he joined the Narvaez Expedition as a treasure seeker, but gained sympathy after living with them and sharing their struggles for all those years, and from being isolated from the Spanish world. In a way, that is similar to how cult members become indoctrinated to become idealist, rather than pragmatist. What was happening then was a two-way street, with slavery,cruelty and barbarism common on both sides. In some parts of the world, it's not much different now.
    There's nothing in de Vaca's account that suggests that he encountered the Pima during his travels. Even those who have theorized that his route passed through the south-eastern corner of Arizona haven't suggested that he and his companions did. And there is certainly no evidence they were any further north, let alone spent any time there. Which isn't to say that no-one from the Tohono O'odham (also piman) tribal lands of northern Sonora could not have gone south to see for themselves what they might have heard was going on as de Vaca and his entourage proceeded westward.

    I doubt de Vaca had any info worth sharing exclusively with his family, since there is no evidence any of them developed an interest in the US southwest. Instead, it was Peru and Argentina which became their sphere of influence for a time.
    My belief is that Estevan, being more adept at translating, as well as likely being a greater curiosity to the natives, was the one who was given any information about "large and rich cities to the north"....probably by Opata natives in the vicinity of Paquime (Casas Grandes). They have ancestral ties to central Arizona, as well as to other ancient peoples of southern Az. and northern Sonora and Sinaloa.

    I don't see any direct link between Diego de Peralta y Cabeza Vaca, and anything relevant to the stone maps or ldm.
    But there was familial connections and Castillian Basque heritage shared between de Vaca, his cousin Pizarro, and the first Peralta's in the new world. It's all about nepotism. Many of the conquistadors shared the same background and purpose. There were freelancers once the territories were opened up for colonialism and grants of lands and their native peoples became a possibility, especially for those who were able to take advantage of any connections they had or could make. Their enterprises varied....trade and mercantile, including slave trading, mining,ranching and plantation farming etc. I would think there were also more than a few unsanctioned and unrecorded explorations in search of new opportunities as well.
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  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by alan m View Post
    All you do is attack and stir up dog doo, never contributing anything of value, I got you figured out
    You got nothing figured out. Have you read all of my posts here? Clearly not. And just as clearly, your proposition that it would be difficult to defend the statement that the PSMs and LDM have nothing to do with each other is false, as you have not shown any correlation between them. It can't even be proven that the PSMs are maps of a place in Arizona, in fact the only places named on them are NOT in Arizona at all. (Sonora and El Paso) Resorting to flinging names like you are doing further proves the weakness of your position and won't swing me over to your point of view whatsoever. Sorry if this offends you, but you have not been contributing anything but verbiage since appearing here.

    SUPPORT THE BEEF INDUSTRY - EAT BEEF
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  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oroblanco View Post
    You got nothing figured out. Have you read all of my posts here? Clearly not. And just as clearly, your proposition that it would be difficult to defend the statement that the PSMs and LDM have nothing to do with each other is false, as you have not shown any correlation between them. It can't even be proven that the PSMs are maps of a place in Arizona, in fact the only places named on them are NOT in Arizona at all. (Sonora and El Paso) Resorting to flinging names like you are doing further proves the weakness of your position and won't swing me over to your point of view whatsoever. Sorry if this offends you, but you have not been contributing anything but verbiage since appearing here.

    Not trying to swing you anywhere, just asked a simple question which you took offense to and could not answer,
    Some books are dangerous, not to be opened with impunity.
    Not everything that can be counted, counts
    Not everything that counts, can be counted

  10. #25
    ca
    May 2007
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oroblanco View Post
    Where does it say the name Peralta on the Peralta stone maps? Thanks in advance.

    I would point out that the Peralta saga is traceable to an earlier lost mine associated with "Jacobs and Ludi". Almost verbatim.

    Alan M wrote


    I would point out to you that it was you, who posted this earlier:



    I would also point out that over 200 people have claimed to have found the LDM. If even ONE of these was correct, then the LDM is found. I will take my "attitude" where ever I like, this is a public forum and you do not control it.

    Take your vitriol elsewhere Roy.
    I'd rather see this thread remain open for non-confrontational adult discussion, and sharing of information, rather than see it closed like the other thread was.
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  11. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by somehiker View Post
    Pretty sure he joined the Narvaez Expedition as a treasure seeker, but gained sympathy after living with them and sharing their struggles for all those years, and from being isolated from the Spanish world. In a way, that is similar to how cult members become indoctrinated to become idealist, rather than pragmatist. What was happening then was a two-way street, with slavery,cruelty and barbarism common on both sides. In some parts of the world, it's not much different now.
    There's nothing in de Vaca's account that suggests that he encountered the Pima during his travels. Even those who have theorized that his route passed through the south-eastern corner of Arizona haven't suggested that he and his companions did. And there is certainly no evidence they were any further north, let alone spent any time there. Which isn't to say that no-one from the Tohono O'odham (also piman) tribal lands of northern Sonora could not have gone south to see for themselves what they might have heard was going on as de Vaca and his entourage proceeded westward.

    I doubt de Vaca had any info worth sharing exclusively with his family, since there is no evidence any of them developed an interest in the US southwest. Instead, it was Peru and Argentina which became their sphere of influence for a time.
    My belief is that Estevan, being more adept at translating, as well as likely being a greater curiosity to the natives, was the one who was given any information about "large and rich cities to the north"....probably by Opata natives in the vicinity of Paquime (Casas Grandes). They have ancestral ties to central Arizona, as well as to other ancient peoples of southern Az. and northern Sonora and Sinaloa.

    I don't see any direct link between Diego de Peralta y Cabeza Vaca, and anything relevant to the stone maps or ldm.
    But there was familial connections and Castillian Basque heritage shared between de Vaca, his cousin Pizarro, and the first Peralta's in the new world. It's all about nepotism. Many of the conquistadors shared the same background and purpose. There were freelancers once the territories were opened up for colonialism and grants of lands and their native peoples became a possibility, especially for those who were able to take advantage of any connections they had or could make. Their enterprises varied....trade and mercantile, including slave trading, mining,ranching and plantation farming etc. I would think there were also more than a few unsanctioned and unrecorded explorations in search of new opportunities as well.

    Wayne great info. Three things I thought de Vaca lived with the Pima's on his way back from the ill-fated Florida, expedition( Maybe that youtube video you gave me?) I will check. The second thing who was the first known Peralta in New Spain. And that tie between the Peralta and the de Vaca, a family where can I find more info? Thanks, Jeff

  12. #27

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    Alan, Of course, the Dutchman, did not know anything about the Peralta Stones, who would even suggest, that, that would be goofy. The connection between the Peralta Stones is the map info value on the Stones leads to the same " birds nest and has been visited by different groups and individuals. To dismiss the PSMs is premature. I have stated this several times on our site. Alan, you do not have to show a correlation, the site shows it and we will share it sooner than later. And we will. We are posting and showing images on our site( the ones that we can). The facts on the ground, support that position. I ask Wayne, you do a lot of research, who was the first known Peralta in New Spain? Thanks, Jeff.

  13. #28
    ca
    May 2007
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    Quote Originally Posted by arcana-exploration View Post
    Alan, Of course, the Dutchman, did not know anything about the Peralta Stones, who would even suggest, that, that would be goofy. The connection between the Peralta Stones is the map info value on the Stones leads to the same " birds nest and has been visited by different groups and individuals. To dismiss the PSMs is premature. I have stated this several times on our site. Alan, you do not have to show a correlation, the site shows it and we will share it sooner than later. And we will. We are posting and showing images on our site( the ones that we can). The facts on the ground, support that position. I ask Wayne, you do a lot of research, who was the first known Peralta in New Spain? Thanks, Jeff.
    The earliest reference to a Peralta in Mexico I have to date......Juan Suarez de Peralta 1537-1590

    A merchant and historian apparently.

    http://www.historicas.unam.mx/public.../LHMT1_036.pdf

    Interesting individual.....with connections

    JUAN SUAREZ DE PERALTA
    Creole born in Mexico the year of 1537. He died in Spain
    after 1590.
    Family of Cortes devoted to mercantile life and
    description of the history of the Conquest, as well as of the cos ·
    galanas and chivalrous lights of his contemporaries.
    Federico Gómez de Orozco, in his Preliminary Note to the Tra-
    tado of the discovery of the Indies, (Historical news of
    New Spain), composed in 1589 by Don Juan Suárez
    from Peralta, neighbor and native of Mexico. Mexico

    A partial (Google) translation of one of his own historical accounts, as given to writer Don Juan Suárez .....

    "THE SEVEN CITIES OF CIBOLA. THE HUNTING
    That is about how Viceroy Don Antonio de Mendoza did
    the army for the Seven Cities, and how he went out with the people
    and how far he got with her, and what happened most.
    The greed was so great that he put the new of the Seven to all.
    Cities, which not only the viceroy and marquis raised the
    feet to go to it, but to the whole earth, and so much, that by
    please negotiated to go the soldiers, and take leave; and was
    so that they were sold, and the one who had it was not thinking, but
    which was already a title at least, because it was more expensive
    I had come from there, luckily, who claimed to be the best
    thing that was in the world: the people of that land very
    prosperous, and all the dressed Indians, gentlemen of much ga-
    I swim; the mountains like those of Spain, and tempera, the firewood that
    it burned were very large walnuts, which gave a lot
    walnut, better than those in Spain; many mountain grapes of
    Very nice to eat, chestnuts and hazelnuts. As he painted it,
    it must be the earthly paradise, and in what is partridge hunting,
    aresres, cranes and all other poultry, it was wonderful what
    that there was. In all this I told the truth, because there is in that
    land the mountains he said and cattle, especially cows;
    but they are not like those here, because I saw leathers of those who
    they brought these soldiers, and they are very different; they have the pes-
    I bake and forehead full of wool, which look like only choir lions
    swims, the horns like a span, very sharp, that can
    serve as alesnas; little bulls and cows, brave in
    Big end, and many in quantity. Grapes and hunting without
    doubt, and temperament, like that of Spain.
    In what is hunting, in New Spain there are many
    of poultry, and ares and cranes that there is no number, the four
    they come to winter, and then, as spring begins
    They leave, that not one remains. I have heard that they are going to breed
    to Florida, and that's where they come from, and it's certainly, for everything
    that of Cíbola, where they say of these cities; and even the
    hawks, as they are Neblíes, and sacres and fins and baharíes, and
    other birds of prey must come from there, because when
    They come, they are wintering when the sands. Then it was
    man, and it is in a lot and there are so many that are taken,
    that I have seen in the Mixteca la Alta, in Tamazulapa, a
    My brother's people, which belonged to my father, and in Y anhui-
    tlán, town of Gonzalo de las Casas, and in other towns by
    there near, market days, which call tianguez, com "
    Last edited by somehiker; Aug 17, 2019 at 01:03 AM.
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  14. #29

    May 2019
    196
    177 times
    All Types Of Treasure Hunting
    Quote Originally Posted by somehiker View Post
    The earliest reference to a Peralta in Mexico I have to date......Juan Suarez de Peralta 1537-1590

    A merchant and historian apparently.

    http://www.historicas.unam.mx/public.../LHMT1_036.pdf

    Interesting individual.....with connections

    JUAN SUAREZ DE PERALTA
    Creole born in Mexico the year of 1537. He died in Spain
    after 1590.
    Family of Cortes devoted to mercantile life and
    description of the history of the Conquest, as well as of the cos ·
    galanas and chivalrous lights of his contemporaries.
    Federico Gómez de Orozco, in his Preliminary Note to the Tra-
    tado of the discovery of the Indies, (Historical news of
    New Spain), composed in 1589 by Don Juan Suárez
    from Peralta, neighbor and native of Mexico. Mexico

    A partial (Google) translation of one of his own historical accounts, as given to writer Don Juan Suárez .....

    "THE SEVEN CITIES OF CIBOLA. THE HUNTING
    That is about how Viceroy Don Antonio de Mendoza did
    the army for the Seven Cities, and how he went out with the people
    and how far he got with her, and what happened most.
    The greed was so great that he put the new of the Seven to all.
    Cities, which not only the viceroy and marquis raised the
    feet to go to it, but to the whole earth, and so much, that by
    please negotiated to go the soldiers, and take leave; and was
    so that they were sold, and the one who had it was not thinking, but
    which was already a title at least, because it was more expensive
    I had come from there, luckily, who claimed to be the best
    thing that was in the world: the people of that land very
    prosperous, and all the dressed Indians, gentlemen of much ga-
    I swim; the mountains like those of Spain, and tempera, the firewood that
    it burned were very large walnuts, which gave a lot
    walnut, better than those in Spain; many mountain grapes of
    Very nice to eat, chestnuts and hazelnuts. As he painted it,
    it must be the earthly paradise, and in what is partridge hunting,
    aresres, cranes and all other poultry, it was wonderful what
    that there was. In all this I told the truth, because there is in that
    land the mountains he said and cattle, especially cows;
    but they are not like those here, because I saw leathers of those who
    they brought these soldiers, and they are very different; they have the pes-
    I bake and forehead full of wool, which look like only choir lions
    swims, the horns like a span, very sharp, that can
    serve as alesnas; little bulls and cows, brave in
    Big end, and many in quantity. Grapes and hunting without
    doubt, and temperament, like that of Spain.
    In what is hunting, in New Spain there are many
    of poultry, and ares and cranes that there is no number, the four
    they come to winter, and then, as spring begins
    They leave, that not one remains. I have heard that they are going to breed
    to Florida, and that's where they come from, and it's certainly, for everything
    that of Cíbola, where they say of these cities; and even the
    hawks, as they are Neblíes, and sacres and fins and baharíes, and
    other birds of prey must come from there, because when
    They come, they are wintering when the sands. Then it was
    man, and it is in a lot and there are so many that are taken,
    that I have seen in the Mixteca la Alta, in Tamazulapa, a
    My brother's people, which belonged to my father, and in Y anhui-
    tlán, town of Gonzalo de las Casas, and in other towns by
    there near, market days, which call tianguez, com "
    Thanks, I will check him out on Sunday, have my sons football draft Sat. Jeff.

  15. #30
    pt
    Sep 2014
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    7043 times
    The facts behind the factoids
    Quote Originally Posted by alan m View Post
    All you do is attack and stir up dog doo, never contributing anything of value, I got you figured out
    Quite obviously an incorrect statement.
    "Well, yeah, that's just, like, your opinion, man."
    Jeffrey "The Dude" Lebowski, 1998

 

 
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