Continuum - Page 3
Welcome guest, is this your first visit?
Member
Discoveries
 
Page 3 of 32 FirstFirst 1234513 ... LastLast
Results 31 to 45 of 476
Like Tree973Likes

Thread: Continuum

« Prev Thread | Next Thread »
  1. #31
    ca
    May 2007
    3,905
    5282 times
    All Types Of Treasure Hunting
    Correct or not, such opinions are off topic.
    sdcfia likes this.
    Hell,you ain't never too old to look!

  2. #32
    pt
    Sep 2014
    2,683
    7043 times
    The facts behind the factoids
    Quote Originally Posted by somehiker View Post
    Pretty sure he joined the Narvaez Expedition as a treasure seeker, but gained sympathy after living with them and sharing their struggles for all those years, and from being isolated from the Spanish world. In a way, that is similar to how cult members become indoctrinated to become idealist, rather than pragmatist. What was happening then was a two-way street, with slavery,cruelty and barbarism common on both sides. In some parts of the world, it's not much different now.
    There's nothing in de Vaca's account that suggests that he encountered the Pima during his travels. Even those who have theorized that his route passed through the south-eastern corner of Arizona haven't suggested that he and his companions did. And there is certainly no evidence they were any further north, let alone spent any time there. Which isn't to say that no-one from the Tohono O'odham (also piman) tribal lands of northern Sonora could not have gone south to see for themselves what they might have heard was going on as de Vaca and his entourage proceeded westward.

    I doubt de Vaca had any info worth sharing exclusively with his family, since there is no evidence any of them developed an interest in the US southwest. Instead, it was Peru and Argentina which became their sphere of influence for a time.
    My belief is that Estevan, being more adept at translating, as well as likely being a greater curiosity to the natives, was the one who was given any information about "large and rich cities to the north"....probably by Opata natives in the vicinity of Paquime (Casas Grandes). They have ancestral ties to central Arizona, as well as to other ancient peoples of southern Az. and northern Sonora and Sinaloa.

    I don't see any direct link between Diego de Peralta y Cabeza Vaca, and anything relevant to the stone maps or ldm.
    But there was familial connections and Castillian Basque heritage shared between de Vaca, his cousin Pizarro, and the first Peralta's in the new world. It's all about nepotism. Many of the conquistadors shared the same background and purpose. There were freelancers once the territories were opened up for colonialism and grants of lands and their native peoples became a possibility, especially for those who were able to take advantage of any connections they had or could make. Their enterprises varied....trade and mercantile, including slave trading, mining,ranching and plantation farming etc. I would think there were also more than a few unsanctioned and unrecorded explorations in search of new opportunities as well.
    It's been years since I read de Vaca's Relacion, but as I recall, my takeaway from it was that Esteban was the key player of the four survivors during their odyssey. He's the one who seemed to most influence the various Natives along the way. He's the one who was sent ahead to grease the skids. Of course, de Vaca was a Conquistador and the the author, and Esteban was a mere slave, so ... Although it's debatable and probably unverifiable, the group likely followed the Rio Grande north to perhaps the Caballo Mountains latitude, more or less, before turning back to a more southerly course, finding old trails south and west before dropping into Mexico. I remember de Vaca's mention of five emerald arrowheads and gold rumors after the party cleared Texas. May have been wishful thinking on the part of the Conquistador, and those arrowheads may have been a green chert or malachite, but there are pesky rumors of emeralds in SW New Mexico tied to Fisher's Atocha recoveries. Quien sabe?

    Re Esteban, aka Estavanico, there used to be an interesting website dedicated to the study of his life (The Estavanico Society) that had curious information about him. Unfortunately, that website is dead. The home page still exists, consisting of a boilerplate summary, but the more probing links have all been gutted. Along the same lines, a new book about Esteban was released a year or so ago that provides alternative material about the slave, supposedly including an argument that he was not killed at Zuni. I haven't read the book yet, but I'm getting more tempted. [[Edit: just ordered it.]] https://smile.amazon.com/Esteban-Afr...gateway&sr=8-3 There are local rumors about Esteban in the Santa Rita del Cobre/Pinos Altos Range in NM - not as part of the de Vaca party, but about his scouting for Marcos de Niza in 1539.
    Last edited by sdcfia; Aug 17, 2019 at 08:00 AM.
    "Well, yeah, that's just, like, your opinion, man."
    Jeffrey "The Dude" Lebowski, 1998

  3. #33
    Charter Member
    us
    Jul 2011
    Gold canyon AZ
    829
    1142 times
    Cache Hunting
    Quote Originally Posted by arcana-exploration View Post
    Alan, Of course, the Dutchman, did not know anything about the Peralta Stones, who would even suggest, that, that would be goofy. The connection between the Peralta Stones is the map info value on the Stones leads to the same " birds nest and has been visited by different groups and individuals. To dismiss the PSMs is premature. I have stated this several times on our site. Alan, you do not have to show a correlation, the site shows it and we will share it sooner than later. And we will. We are posting and showing images on our site( the ones that we can). The facts on the ground, support that position. I ask Wayne, you do a lot of research, who was the first known Peralta in New Spain? Thanks, Jeff.
    I did not intend to suggest that Waltz knew about the PSM’s, however, my research has indicated that what the PSM’s pertain to and what Waltz found are definitely related.
    somehiker and PotBelly Jim like this.
    Some books are dangerous, not to be opened with impunity.
    Not everything that can be counted, counts
    Not everything that counts, can be counted

  4. #34
    Charter Member
    us
    Jul 2011
    Gold canyon AZ
    829
    1142 times
    Cache Hunting
    Quote Originally Posted by somehiker View Post
    Correct or not, such opinions are off topic.
    You are right, I should have just ignored the poster, I shall do that in the future
    somehiker and sdcfia like this.
    Some books are dangerous, not to be opened with impunity.
    Not everything that can be counted, counts
    Not everything that counts, can be counted

  5. #35

    May 2019
    196
    177 times
    All Types Of Treasure Hunting
    Quote Originally Posted by alan m View Post
    I did not intend to suggest that Waltz knew about the PSMís, however, my research has indicated that what the PSMís pertain to and what Waltz found are definitely related.
    Allen, I did not think you were making that correlation at, of course, you were not but he sounded like he was saying you needed to show a link which of, you know that is not the case., There does not need to be a direct link you never said that. There is a peripheral link between the two. They independently link to the same birds nest. That is what they have in common, which of course you knew. IMO
    alan m likes this.

  6. #36
    pt
    Sep 2014
    2,683
    7043 times
    The facts behind the factoids
    Quote Originally Posted by arcana-exploration View Post
    Allen, I did not think you were making that correlation at, of course, you were not but he sounded like he was saying you needed to show a link which of, you know that is not the case., There does not need to be a direct link you never said that. There is a peripheral link between the two. They independently link to the same birds nest. That is what they have in common, which of course you knew. IMO
    Anything's possible of course, but other than the fact that these two stories each focus on well-fed but unverified rumors of alleged hidden riches in central Arizona, there isn't anything that links the two except speculation IMO. Of the two, the Waltz story seems to be more supportable, but thinly so. At least Waltz existed, and being a lifetime miner possessed gold ore and an alleged first-person yarn about where it came from when he died. That's at least a start for the curious. The carved stones? These rocks are intriguing only because nothing definitive about them has been established that most people are willing to accept, although many solutions have been offered. Here's yet another mystery solver with yet another take on those and where they came from:
    "Well, yeah, that's just, like, your opinion, man."
    Jeffrey "The Dude" Lebowski, 1998

  7. #37
    ca
    May 2007
    3,905
    5282 times
    All Types Of Treasure Hunting
    Quote Originally Posted by sdcfia View Post
    Anything's possible of course, but other than the fact that these two stories each focus on well-fed but unverified rumors of alleged hidden riches in central Arizona, there isn't anything that links the two except speculation IMO. Of the two, the Waltz story seems to be more supportable, but thinly so. At least Waltz existed, and being a lifetime miner possessed gold ore and an alleged first-person yarn about where it came from when he died. That's at least a start for the curious. The carved stones? These rocks are intriguing only because nothing definitive about them has been established that most people are willing to accept, although many solutions have been offered. Here's yet another mystery solver with yet another take on those and where they came from:
    I ran in to Ron out at the Massacre Grounds about 14 yrs ago, well before I developed any interest in the stone maps.
    We spent some time talking about the Massacre story, but not the stones as I recall. I still remember his enthusiasm and the way he went on about the Peralta connections to the mountains. Glad to see he's still active in the hunt.

    More on Ron:

    Tom Kollenborn Chronicles: Eagle of the Superstition Mountain
    sdcfia and PotBelly Jim like this.
    Hell,you ain't never too old to look!

  8. #38
    um
    Nemo me impune lacesset

    Jan 2005
    DAKOTA TERRITORY
    Tesoro Lobo Supertraq, (95%) Garrett Scorpion (5%)
    7,560
    8631 times
    Somehiker wrote
    Take your vitriol elsewhere Roy.
    I'd rather see this thread remain open for non-confrontational adult discussion, and sharing of information, rather than see it closed like the other thread was.
    Vitriol? What vitriol? I was not the one who popped off with such things as :

    I am not interested in getting in a pissing contest with you, so take your attitude elswhere.
    All you do is attack and stir up dog doo, never contributing anything of value, I got you figured out
    The only one spouting "vitriol" is Alan. It is not opinion to state a simple fact, that the PSMs are not related to the LDM. There is no evidence to link them other than the BELIEFS of those who support the theories. As you yourself put it, the "belief" that the Peraltas created the stone maps, the "belief" that the stone maps are maps of the Superstition mountains, and the "belief" that Waltz's mine must have been the same mine of the Peralta saga.

    You have been posting some great research, as have Steve and others, so far however it still doesn't link up with the LDM.

    SUPPORT THE BEEF INDUSTRY - EAT BEEF
    "We must find a way, or we will make one."--Hannibal Barca

  9. #39
    Charter Member
    us
    Jul 2011
    Gold canyon AZ
    829
    1142 times
    Cache Hunting
    Quote Originally Posted by Oroblanco View Post
    Somehiker wrote


    Vitriol? What vitriol? I was not the one who popped off with such things as :





    The only one spouting "vitriol" is Alan. It is not opinion to state a simple fact, that the PSMs are not related to the LDM. There is no evidence to link them other than the BELIEFS of those who support the theories. As you yourself put it, the "belief" that the Peraltas created the stone maps, the "belief" that the stone maps are maps of the Superstition mountains, and the "belief" that Waltz's mine must have been the same mine of the Peralta saga.

    You have been posting some great research, as have Steve and others, so far however it still doesn't link up with the LDM.

    I don’t think you know the difference between an opinion and a fact, time to put you on the ignore list
    Last edited by alan m; Aug 18, 2019 at 10:15 AM.
    somehiker likes this.
    Some books are dangerous, not to be opened with impunity.
    Not everything that can be counted, counts
    Not everything that counts, can be counted

  10. #40
    ca
    May 2007
    3,905
    5282 times
    All Types Of Treasure Hunting
    Quote Originally Posted by sdcfia View Post
    It's been years since I read de Vaca's Relacion, but as I recall, my takeaway from it was that Esteban was the key player of the four survivors during their odyssey. He's the one who seemed to most influence the various Natives along the way. He's the one who was sent ahead to grease the skids. Of course, de Vaca was a Conquistador and the the author, and Esteban was a mere slave, so ... Although it's debatable and probably unverifiable, the group likely followed the Rio Grande north to perhaps the Caballo Mountains latitude, more or less, before turning back to a more southerly course, finding old trails south and west before dropping into Mexico. I remember de Vaca's mention of five emerald arrowheads and gold rumors after the party cleared Texas. May have been wishful thinking on the part of the Conquistador, and those arrowheads may have been a green chert or malachite, but there are pesky rumors of emeralds in SW New Mexico tied to Fisher's Atocha recoveries. Quien sabe?

    Re Esteban, aka Estavanico, there used to be an interesting website dedicated to the study of his life (The Estavanico Society) that had curious information about him. Unfortunately, that website is dead. The home page still exists, consisting of a boilerplate summary, but the more probing links have all been gutted. Along the same lines, a new book about Esteban was released a year or so ago that provides alternative material about the slave, supposedly including an argument that he was not killed at Zuni. I haven't read the book yet, but I'm getting more tempted. [[Edit: just ordered it.]] https://smile.amazon.com/Esteban-Afr...gateway&sr=8-3 There are local rumors about Esteban in the Santa Rita del Cobre/Pinos Altos Range in NM - not as part of the de Vaca party, but about his scouting for Marcos de Niza in 1539.
    Our impressions of Esteban's abilities and actions are the same. Question is, how much of what he learned from the locals, as their journey progressed, did he share with the others ? There's no question that he subsequently led the DaNiza expedition northward into Arizona from Corazones, where he and his companions had previously turned southward on their path from Texas. To me, that suggests Esteban's information was received from the natives within that same locale, with directions which initially led them northward from there.
    The green arrowheads may have also been peridot or even of a high quality green obsidian IMO. I'd have to go back to De Vaca's account to check, but as I recall, the mention of gold was in regard to evidence of gold,silver and other mineral deposits which they had taken note of, or heard about during that phase of their journey.
    I was aware of the Estavanico Society website, and had it saved to my links file......too bad it's been gutted .
    Good buy on the book though.
    sdcfia likes this.
    Hell,you ain't never too old to look!

  11. #41
    ca
    May 2007
    3,905
    5282 times
    All Types Of Treasure Hunting
    Quote Originally Posted by alan m View Post
    I don’t think you know the difference between an opinion and a fact, time to put you on the ignore list
    Good move, and one I am considering myself....for the first time.
    Before I do however, I might initiate a new thread which might......depending on what documentation or other "proof" is available......serve as a better soapbox.
    But right now, I have to head out and round up some groceries.....see ya
    alan m likes this.
    Hell,you ain't never too old to look!

  12. #42

    Jan 2014
    1,892
    3520 times
    Quote Originally Posted by Oroblanco View Post
    Somehiker wrote


    Vitriol? What vitriol? I was not the one who popped off with such things as :





    The only one spouting "vitriol" is Alan. It is not opinion to state a simple fact, that the PSMs are not related to the LDM. There is no evidence to link them other than the BELIEFS of those who support the theories. As you yourself put it, the "belief" that the Peraltas created the stone maps, the "belief" that the stone maps are maps of the Superstition mountains, and the "belief" that Waltz's mine must have been the same mine of the Peralta saga.

    You have been posting some great research, as have Steve and others, so far however it still doesn't link up with the LDM.

    Roy,

    I don't understand your vitriol and where it is coming from. Like it or not, the Stone Maps are part of the Superstition Lore- and there are many other threads in this forum that have nothing to do with the LDM, but are part of the Superstitions, ranging from Lewis and Pranty, to Superstition toponymy, to the Coobs restaurant being bulldozed. Is your vitriol also directed to them as well? Shall those threads be deleted?

    Also, do you remember that it was you, yourself that started a thread on the Stone Maps: "The Peralta Stone Maps, Real Maps to Lost Gold Mines or Cruel Hoax?" which has ended up being 212 pages long.

    Do you think that this thread should also be deleted and removed from this forum?
    alan m and somehiker like this.

  13. #43

    May 2019
    196
    177 times
    All Types Of Treasure Hunting
    Quote Originally Posted by alan m View Post
    I donít think you know the difference between an opinion and a fact, time to put you on the ignore list
    YES.
    alan m and somehiker like this.

  14. #44
    us
    Dec 2008
    2,681
    6081 times
    Quote Originally Posted by deducer View Post
    Roy,

    I don't understand your vitriol and where it is coming from. Like it or not, the Stone Maps are part of the Superstition Lore- and there are many other threads in this forum that have nothing to do with the LDM, but are part of the Superstitions, ranging from Lewis and Pranty, to Superstition toponymy, to the Coobs restaurant being bulldozed. Is your vitriol also directed to them as well? Shall those threads be deleted?

    Also, do you remember that it was you, yourself that started a thread on the Stone Maps: "The Peralta Stone Maps, Real Maps to Lost Gold Mines or Cruel Hoax?" which has ended up being 212 pages long.

    Do you think that this thread should also be deleted and removed from this forum?
    arthur....i don't think any threads should be deleted...it's a free and open forum so anyone can post..even alot of the so called "useless" threads might have some info that another member can use...in my opinion alot of the threads you deem useless keep this forum alive...its keeps people interested and coming back...even though they gripe about some of the squabbles that go on here they still read them...i think the stone maps are doorstops..but i still read the threads about them
    alan m, somehiker and Oroblanco like this.

  15. #45
    ca
    May 2007
    3,905
    5282 times
    All Types Of Treasure Hunting
    Quote Originally Posted by azdave35 View Post
    arthur....i don't think any threads should be deleted...it's a free and open forum so anyone can post..even alot of the so called "useless" threads might have some info that another member can use...in my opinion alot of the threads you deem useless keep this forum alive...its keeps people interested and coming back...even though they gripe about some of the squabbles that go on here they still read them...i think the stone maps are doorstops..but i still read the threads about them
    I don't believe it is Arthur who has deemed any of the treads in the LDM forum as useless, although I would agree that far too many posts tend to be a waste of time or even disruptive in purpose IMO.
    azdave35, sdcfia and deducer like this.
    Hell,you ain't never too old to look!

 

 
Page 3 of 32 FirstFirst 1234513 ... LastLast

Sponsored Links

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v4.3.0