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somehiker

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Seeing as how Jeff (Arcana Exploration) had nothing to do with the grandiose claims that ruined, once again, another valuable thread, I've decided to repost the last relevant contribution by Jeff to the topic. Hopefully, this conversation can proceed from this point without more of the same kind of disruptive behavior.......

=Wayne any thoughts on Alvarez de Vaca? He was very early on, and went native and lived with the Pma's before returning to Mexico City after making his way from the east. It seems he was on his good behavior when he lived with them. He had to be one of the earliest Spaniards in the area and had a good relationship with the Pimas, maybe they shared info with him? Where is the best place to find info on him? What are your thoughts on him?

Thanks, Wayne Great info

More:



Even though Alvar de Vaca's journey, according to the analysis done by the makers of the video posted above, did not include any part of Arizona, his story is still relevant to the overall history of what I am trying to unravel. His vivid descriptions of the lands, the climate, and the native poulations he and his companions encountered and interacted with along the way until finally locating Diego de Alcaraza's company of slavers near San Miguel de Culiacán ( now simply named Culiacán ), adds a great deal to what we know of Florida, Texas, and northern Mexico during the earliest days of Spanish colonialism.
A few things within De Vaca's relacion I found interesting. One in particular is worth doing a bit more research on.
That one village of indians on the west coast of Florida had in their possesion " many boxes for merchandise from Castilla. In every one of them was a corpse covered with painted deer hides. The commissary thought this to be some idolatrous practice, so he burnt the boxes with the corpses. We also found pieces of linen and cloth, and feather head dresses that seemed to be from New Spain, and samples of gold."
"We inquired of the Indians (by signs) whence they had obtained these things and they gave us to understand that, very far from there, was a province called Apalachen in which there was much gold. They also signified to us that in that province we would find everything we held in esteem. They said that in Apalachen there was plenty."
Going by the description of goods and the location...west coast of Florida/Crystal River area...I'd say the natives had salvaged a very early Spanish shipwreck, perhaps one carrying items being sent to Spain by Cortez himself.
There are few references to treasure within de Vaca's Relacion of what he and his three companions experienced after leaving the gulf coast of Texas, and no mention of large and wealthy cities to the north within. Yet we know that he and his companions had learned of such a place during this part of their travels and had reported this to Viceroy Mendoza upon their arrival in Mexico City in 1536. Estevan Dorantes (Estevan the Moor), who may have known more than even de Vaca did about what soon became rumored to be the fabled "seven cities of gold", was subsequently chosen to accompany and guide the first officially sanctioned exploration of North Western Mexico and Arizona.....that of Friar Marcos de Niza in 1538-1539.

That is when it starts to get even more interesting IMO.
 

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sdcfia

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Seeing as how Jeff (Arcana Exploration) had nothing to do with the grandiose claims that ruined, once again, another valuable thread, I've decided to repost the last relevant contribution by Jeff to the topic. Hopefully, this conversation can proceed from this point without more of the same kind of disruptive behavior.......





More:



Even though Alvar de Vaca's journey, according to the analysis done by the makers of the video posted above, did not include any part of Arizona, his story is still relevant to the overall history of what I am trying to unravel. His vivid descriptions of the lands, the climate, and the native poulations he and his companions encountered and interacted with along the way until finally locating Diego de Alcaraza's company of slavers near San Miguel de Culiacán ( now simply named Culiacán ), adds a great deal to what we know of Florida, Texas, and northern Mexico during the earliest days of Spanish colonialism.
A few things within De Vaca's relacion I found interesting. One in particular is worth doing a bit more research on.
That one village of indians on the west coast of Florida had in their possesion " many boxes for merchandise from Castilla. In every one of them was a corpse covered with painted deer hides. The commissary thought this to be some idolatrous practice, so he burnt the boxes with the corpses. We also found pieces of linen and cloth, and feather head dresses that seemed to be from New Spain, and samples of gold."
"We inquired of the Indians (by signs) whence they had obtained these things and they gave us to understand that, very far from there, was a province called Apalachen in which there was much gold. They also signified to us that in that province we would find everything we held in esteem. They said that in Apalachen there was plenty."
Going by the description of goods and the location...west coast of Florida/Crystal River area...I'd say the natives had salvaged a very early Spanish shipwreck, perhaps one carrying items being sent to Spain by Cortez himself.
There are few references to treasure within de Vaca's Relacion of what he and his three companions experienced after leaving the gulf coast of Texas, and no mention of large and wealthy cities to the north within. Yet we know that he and his companions had learned of such a place during this part of their travels and had reported this to Viceroy Mendoza upon their arrival in Mexico City in 1536. Estevan Dorantes (Estevan the Moor), who may have known more than even de Vaca did about what soon became rumored to be the fabled "seven cities of gold", was subsequently chosen to accompany and guide the first officially sanctioned exploration of North Western Mexico and Arizona.....that of Friar Marcos de Niza in 1538-1539.

That is when it starts to get even more interesting IMO.


Actually, it begins a bit earlier for Marcos. He was a leading champion of Native rights in the Americas. Fray Marcos de Niza: In Pursuit of Franciscan Utopia in Americas, by Michel Nallino, Academia Nissarda, Nice, France, may shed some light on Marcos' controversial 1538 expedition with Esteban and his 1540 sandbagging of Coronado. The 39-page pdf version I downloaded years ago doesn't seem to be available anymore online, but this 29-page truncated version will probably suffice: https://archive.org/details/FrayMarcosDeNizaUtopia
 

deducer

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An interesting tidbit I came across is that the quartz that was embedded in the roofs of the adobes may have been what gave rise to the rumors of "Cibola."

As an aside, if posters don't want threads to continually get locked and good discussions to get lost. The answer is very simple: stop feeding the trolls. It never ends well and always ends in insults being exchanged, which ends in threads getting locked. I know some of you love to pick on the mentally challenged, but it's just not worth it.
 

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somehiker

somehiker

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An interesting tidbit I came across is that the quartz that was embedded in the roofs of the adobes may have been what gave rise to the rumors of "Cibola."

As an aside, if posters don't want threads to continually get locked and good discussions to get lost. The answer is very simple: stop feeding the trolls. It never ends well and always ends in insults being exchanged, which ends in threads getting locked. I know some of you love to pick on the mentally challenged, but it's just not worth it.

More likely mica within the plastered coatings of their Pueblo walls, from which the Hopi may have derived their own name for the UN Building in NYC...."The Great House of Mica"....as part of their Prophecy.

https://curiosmos.com/37-kilograms-of-mica-used-today-in-electronics-

My suggestion, and what I plan to do in the future, is to simply ignore anything posted....even personal insults....if they do happen to show up again.
 

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azdave35

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you guys have probably read this but the bernal diaz chronicles is a diary of one of the conquistadors and it used to be free to read on google books
 

azdave35

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you guys have probably read this but the bernal diaz chronicles is a diary of one of the conquistadors and it used to be free to read on google books
it might be called the memoirs of bernal diaz...i'm not sure of the exact title but it is a good account of what really happened back then
 

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somehiker

somehiker

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it might be called the memoirs of bernal diaz...i'm not sure of the exact title but it is a good account of what really happened back then

Bernal Diaz Del Castillo was one of Cortez's conquistadors, who took part in the conquest of Tenochtitlan and the Aztecs.
He was one of very few who wrote extensively about his experiences ..... https://archive.org/details/tesisnoqueprese00garcgoog/page/n7
, and also of a small number who had taken part in two previous attempts to explore Central America, by Hernandez de Cordova in 1517 and Juan de Grijalva in 1518, both having failed at their mission to penetrate and conquer the continent via the Yucatan.
As such, this book contains Diaz's accounts of all three of his adventures in the new world, and well worth the read.
 

azdave35

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Bernal Diaz Del Castillo was one of Cortez's conquistadors, who took part in the conquest of Tenochtitlan and the Aztecs.
He was one of very few who wrote extensively about his experiences ..... https://archive.org/details/tesisnoqueprese00garcgoog/page/n7
, and also of a small number who had taken part in two previous attempts to explore Central America, by Hernandez de Cordova in 1517 and Juan de Grijalva in 1518, both having failed at their mission to penetrate and conquer the continent via the Yucatan.
As such, this book contains Diaz's accounts of all three of his adventures in the new world, and well worth the read.
i skimmed through it years ago.....those Spaniards didn't put up with any insubordination from their indian slaves
 

arcana-exploration

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Thanks, Wayne, great info, clearly de Vaca was an idealist and cared nothing about gold except that it might ruin the Pimas way of life. It really is not known how far north he got. My guess the Pimas liked him and could have share info about gold, but he would not have shared it, because he felt it would have turned the Pima's into slaves. He may have shared it with family but maybe not? He would be a stretch, but we really do not know? I know about de Niza. What do you know about the family ties between de Vaca and Peralta? Diego de Peralta y Cabeza Vaca? He was in Peru but somewhere, I feel there may be a link that is of importance. Was there any freelance Spaniards early on that was not officially sanctioned by the crown in the new world.

I have stayed out of Mick deal but several years ago on Desert USA I posted one of our guys going up the canyon at our site, but I cropped so all you could see was a few bushes. Believe me, I could not even tell where it was if I had not put it on there myself, none of my guys could tell me exactly where it was. Then all of a sudden this Mick guys post, " nice try cutting off the edges, but I have been there and there is nothing there, don't waste your time" (we had been there for a year and there was all kind of stuff) I thought who is this blowhard, I never responded. Said thing is He knows just enoufe stuff to be somewhat informed, but from what I have seen over the years he never puts anything out there, except disruption. That is my one only comment on that. Thanks for the great info.
 

azdave35

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Thanks, Wayne, great info, clearly de Vaca was an idealist and cared nothing about gold except that it might ruin the Pimas way of life. It really is not known how far north he got. My guess the Pimas liked him and could have share info about gold, but he would not have shared it, because he felt it would have turned the Pima's into slaves. He may have shared it with family but maybe not? He would be a stretch, but we really do not know? I know about de Niza. What do you know about the family ties between de Vaca and Peralta? Diego de Peralta y Cabeza Vaca? He was in Peru but somewhere, I feel there may be a link that is of importance. Was there any freelance Spaniards early on that was not officially sanctioned by the crown in the new world.

I have stayed out of Mick deal but several years ago on Desert USA I posted one of our guys going up the canyon at our site, but I cropped so all you could see was a few bushes. Believe me, I could not even tell where it was if I had not put it on there myself, none of my guys could tell me exactly where it was. Then all of a sudden this Mick guys post, " nice try cutting off the edges, but I have been there and there is nothing there, don't waste your time" (we had been there for a year and there was all kind of stuff) I thought who is this blowhard, I never responded. Said thing is He knows just enoufe stuff to be somewhat informed, but from what I have seen over the years he never puts anything out there, except disruption. That is my one only comment on that. Thanks for the great info.
mick comes on here long enough to get everyone stirred up ..and then he gets booted....
 

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somehiker

somehiker

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mick comes on here long enough to get everyone stirred up ..and then he gets booted....

Enough about him.
Here's an easier to read version of Diaz's book.....

https://books.google.ca/books/about...p_read_button&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q&f=false

At the top of page 345, there is a detail which originally gave me reason, along with Diaz's description of how a uncooperative Moctezuma had been approached with reverence by the Aztec combatants below, to suspect the Spanish accounts of his cause of death were falsified. Pedro de Alvarado was well known to be a hothead and very quick to respond brutally to anyone who resisted the orders of his or his captain. That Diaz mentions that the emperor had been struck by an arrow, and not just the stones mentioned in Cortez's report to the King, made me wonder if Pedro hadn't lost his cool and stuck his dagger into Montezuma. That Diaz's "arrow" explanation was sort of a coverup, in case anyone else who had seen the wound was ever to raise questions before a Spanish inquest later on.
 

azdave35

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Enough about him.
Here's an easier to read version of Diaz's book.....

https://books.google.ca/books/about...p_read_button&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q&f=false

At the top of page 345, there is a detail which originally gave me reason, along with Diaz's description of how a uncooperative Moctezuma had been approached with reverence by the Aztec combatants below, to suspect the Spanish accounts of his cause of death were falsified. Pedro de Alvarado was well known to be a hothead and very quick to respond brutally to anyone who resisted the orders of his or his captain. That Diaz mentions that the emperor had been struck by an arrow, and not just the stones mentioned in Cortez's report to the King, made me wonder if Pedro hadn't lost his cool and stuck his dagger into Montezuma. That Diaz's "arrow" explanation was sort of a coverup, in case anyone else who had seen the wound was ever to raise questions before a Spanish inquest later on.
wayne..thats the version of the book i have
 

Al D

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It was linked via the PSMs, which however actually don't have anything to do with the lost mine of Jacob Waltz. :dontknow:
Since the PSM’s have not been deciphered, and no one has found the LDM, how can you defend your position that the two have nothing to do with each other?
 

Oroblanco

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Since the PSM’s have not been deciphered, and no one has found the LDM, how can you defend your position that the two have nothing to do with each other?

The PSMs have been "deciphered" so many times it is beyond counting. Waltz never said a single word about any stone maps. Nothing on the PSMs shows any hint of ANY kind of link to the lost gold mine of Jacob Waltz. Prove I am wrong. I will wait.
 

Al D

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The PSMs have been "deciphered" so many times it is beyond counting. Waltz never said a single word about any stone maps. Nothing on the PSMs shows any hint of ANY kind of link to the lost gold mine of Jacob Waltz. Prove I am wrong. I will wait.
I do not have to prove your statement, pro or con, I asked a simple question, I am not interested in getting in a pissing contest with you, so take your attitude elswhere.
 

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somehiker

somehiker

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Far be it from me to derail this, but can someone point out the nexus with DLM?

"DLM" ?......nothing.

LDM......maybe, since there is a chance that Waltz's source of gold had, according to his own testimony, been exploited by Mexicans before him. Many believe the stone maps were created by a Peralta, and the Peralta family is believed to have been based in Sonora at the time, and may have roots that go as far back as the earliest days of the conquest of Mexico....ergo=nexus
 

Oroblanco

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"DLM" ?......nothing.

LDM......maybe, since there is a chance that Waltz's source of gold had, according to his own testimony, been exploited by Mexicans before him. Many believe the stone maps were created by a Peralta, and the Peralta family is believed to have been based in Sonora at the time, and may have roots that go as far back as the earliest days of the conquest of Mexico....ergo=nexus

Where does it say the name Peralta on the Peralta stone maps? Thanks in advance.

I would point out that the Peralta saga is traceable to an earlier lost mine associated with "Jacobs and Ludi". Almost verbatim.

Alan M wrote
I do not have to prove your statement, pro or con, I asked a simple question, I am not interested in getting in a pissing contest with you, so take your attitude elswhere.

I would point out to you that it was you, who posted this earlier:

Since the PSM’s have not been deciphered, and no one has found the LDM, how can you defend your position that the two have nothing to do with each other?

I would also point out that over 200 people have claimed to have found the LDM. If even ONE of these was correct, then the LDM is found. I will take my "attitude" where ever I like, this is a public forum and you do not control it.

:coffee2: :coffee2: :coffee: :coffee2:
 

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