Jacobs and Ludi, Fact or Fiction ?
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  1. #1
    ca
    May 2007
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    Jacobs and Ludi, Fact or Fiction ?

    Since the "Jacobs and Ludi" story is sometimes cited as evidence the Lost Dutchman Mine legend may have been founded on earlier accounts of lost gold mines, perhaps this thread can be used for posting and discussing the relative merits of this subject. Lets just keep it civil and respectful please.

    To that end, I will lead with these two references, the first of which has been contributed through the research efforts of Gary Cundiff.

    http://freepages.rootsweb.com/~gcund...DM%20Story.pdf

    The date of the article July 18/1931 and subsequent letter of July 21/1931 from James McCarthy, contains the earliest reference to any "Jacobs and Ludi" that I have found to date.

    and this, which carries a reprint from Barry Storm's "Thunder God's Gold".

    http://www.crystalwind.ca/mystical-m...lost-gold-mine
    Last edited by somehiker; Aug 18, 2019 at 02:30 PM.
    Hell,you ain't never too old to look!

  2. #2
    ca
    May 2007
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    Something I find interesting is that John G. Clemenson (Barry Storm's real name} had moved to Arizona sometime in the 1930's.
    He was 21 yrs old in 1931, and was doing odd jobs and working as a part time reporter.
    Could it have been he who interviewed Brownie Holmes and wrote the Phoenix Gazette article in 1931 ?
    azdave35, PotBelly Jim and cw0909 like this.
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  3. #3
    us
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    Quote Originally Posted by somehiker View Post
    Something I find interesting is that John G. Clemenson (Barry Storm's real name} had moved to Arizona sometime in the 1930's.
    He was 21 yrs old in 1931, and was doing odd jobs and working as a part time reporter.
    Could it have been he who interviewed Brownie Holmes and wrote the Phoenix Gazette article in 1931 ?
    could be..when it comes right down to it...we don't really know that much about ole barry

  4. #4
    ca
    May 2007
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    Quote Originally Posted by azdave35 View Post
    could be..when it comes right down to it...we don't really know that much about ole barry
    There are certainly a few who believe he fabricated some of the "evidence", rock carvings etc. that he then used to support his version of history. If so, it seems logical that he might even have written letters under false names, in order to increase interest in his articles.
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  5. #5
    Charter Member
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    I would vote no(EDIT: That Storm was the author of the Phoenix Gazette article), as Storm had a dislike for Brownie and went so far as trying to tie Holmes to Ruth's death.

    I can't comment much on Jacobs and Ludi but I do know John D. Mitchell thought it was a different mine than the LDM back in the early 1930's.

    I have never seen an earlier reference to the story than that but it had to be out there by 1931, prior to MCarthy and Storm.
    Last edited by PotBelly Jim; Aug 18, 2019 at 07:37 PM.

  6. #6
    us
    Dec 2008
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    Quote Originally Posted by somehiker View Post
    There are certainly a few who believe he fabricated some of the "evidence", rock carvings etc. that he then used to support his version of history. If so, it seems logical that he might even have written letters under false names, in order to increase interest in his articles.
    alot of writers back in the day had quite a few different aliases they wrote under..there was one author that used to write in all of the treasure and western magazines back in the 50's and 60's...one of his aliases was maurice killdare...he did alot of the arizona based treasure stories...when i first started treasure hunting i chased alot of his stories..i went all over the state checking into these treasure yarns...turns out his brother in law lived in my neighborhood...he sold whites metal detectors out of his house....he asked which treasures i had been looking for and i told him mostly the ones kildare had written about..he busted up laughing ..after he calmed down he told me that was his bro in law...he also said old maurice was full of doo-doo....he pulled out some magazine and showed me all his other aliases...after that i was very skeptical about anything i read ...especially about treasure and lost mines

  7. #7
    ca
    May 2007
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    Quote Originally Posted by PotBelly Jim View Post
    I would vote no, as Storm had a dislike for Brownie and went so far as trying to tie Holmes to Ruth's death.

    I can't comment much on Jacobs and Ludi but I do know John D. Mitchell thought it was a different mine than the LDM back in the early 1930's.

    I have never seen an earlier reference to the story than that but it had to be out there by 1931, prior to MCarthy and Storm.
    McCarthy certainly indicated a dislike for Holmes......

    "In the Gazette story as related by the son of the elder Holmes, his father was born in 1865 and was a packer in the early Territorial days of Arizona! Just when were the “Early Territorial days of Arizona!? The Dutchman was discovered in 1862, three years before he was born. In all the talks I had with Mrs. Thomas and Herman Petrie, no mention was ever made of anybody by the name of Holmes and according to their story, (which I personally verified), these two were with Jacobs at the time of his death. The “Negro Nurse” of which he speaks was a Creole, native of Louisiana."

    I know some believe Jacobs and Ludi (Ludy?) were the names of the two soldiers Waltz supposedly killed.
    Cactusjumper had found some military discharge records for two brothers with the Ludy surname, from the same timeframe, as I recall......no Jacobs though.

    When and what did John D. Mitchell have to say about Jacobs and Ludi, and when was it published ?
    Any links will be appreciated.

    What I'm really looking for, is anything about Jacobs and Ludi published prior to any popular version of The LDM story.
    PotBelly Jim likes this.
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  8. #8
    us
    Sep 2010
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    Quote Originally Posted by somehiker View Post
    There are certainly a few who believe he fabricated some of the "evidence", rock carvings etc. that he then used to support his version of history. If so, it seems logical that he might even have written letters under false names, in order to increase interest in his articles.
    I count at least thirty three reasons to have confidence in Storm, one being his rapport with Goldwater.
    Another, the many revisions to his work, shows character.
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  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hal Croves View Post
    I count at least thirty three reasons to have confidence in Storm, one being his rapport with Goldwater.
    Another, the many revisions to his work, shows character.
    you been on a pretty good roll with your research lately..if you feel like it maybe you could turn up some more history on barry storm

  10. #10
    Charter Member
    us
    Dec 2017
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    Quote Originally Posted by somehiker View Post
    McCarthy certainly indicated a dislike for Holmes......

    "In the Gazette story as related by the son of the elder Holmes, his father was born in 1865 and was a packer in the early Territorial days of Arizona! Just when were the “Early Territorial days of Arizona!? The Dutchman was discovered in 1862, three years before he was born. In all the talks I had with Mrs. Thomas and Herman Petrie, no mention was ever made of anybody by the name of Holmes and according to their story, (which I personally verified), these two were with Jacobs at the time of his death. The “Negro Nurse” of which he speaks was a Creole, native of Louisiana."

    I know some believe Jacobs and Ludi (Ludy?) were the names of the two soldiers Waltz supposedly killed.
    Cactusjumper had found some military discharge records for two brothers with the Ludy surname, from the same timeframe, as I recall......no Jacobs though.

    When and what did John D. Mitchell have to say about Jacobs and Ludi, and when was it published ?
    Any links will be appreciated.

    What I'm really looking for, is anything about Jacobs and Ludi published prior to any popular version of The LDM story.
    No link for you on Mitchell. You'll have to take my word for it

    Unless you have a copy of his "Lost Mines of the Great Southwest"...pg 172:

    "There is also confusion, in the minds of those who think they know all about the Lost Dutchman, concerning the name of the man or men who started the story...<snip>...These men are not the original men of the Lost Dutchman: Frank Ricken (real name) or Frank Branden (assumed name), Paul Ludy or Jacobs of one story, Jack Swartz, Andy Starr or a man whose last name was Jacob." Published in PHX, 1933. IMO he got the Jacobs and Ludi story from Milton Rose and was reluctant to publish it, as it's not included in this book.

    Interestingly, he goes on: "Jacob Walz did not tell J. R. Holmes (sic) any tale about the mine, nor did Holmes get any $500 or more in gold rock from under the bed of the Dutchman, because Walz was dead before Holmes came to Arizona." Sounds like he had some terrible sources on that.

    Not able to help with anything about Jacobs and Ludi published prior to any popular version of the LDM story. Roy or Joe may be able to fill in those blanks.
    deducer likes this.

  11. #11
    us
    Sep 2010
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    Quote Originally Posted by azdave35 View Post
    you been on a pretty good roll with your research lately..if you feel like it maybe you could turn up some more history on barry storm
    Best defense against clinical depression... distracting oneself with other people’s business. I am at the Firestone Library in Princeton this week and will look.

    The Celeste Maria Arva Jones story is nagging at me, as is 137 West Jackson.
    azdave35 and deducer like this.

  12. #12
    us
    Director of Research, Acquisitions, Archives and Library, Superstition Mountain Historical Society,and one of its founders, Member of Arizona First Families, Westerners, Arizona Historical Society, Central Arizona Museum Association and the Dons Club

    Oct 2013
    Tempe, Arizona
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    Good evening gentlemen: Leland Lovelace (Bessie B. Lovelace, real name), Allowed Barry Storm to read her manuscript, "Trail of Disaster" which contained the story of Jacobs and Ludi. She was very much surprised to see that story appear in Storms book. The original name was Ludy but she deliberately changed the name of Ludy to Ludi in her manuscript so she could tell if someone were to ever print that story from her manuscript. Sure enough, Storm spelled the name Ludi. This information comes from an interview with Lovelace by Clay Worst. I do not have a copy of her manuscript and do not know of anyone who has a copy. Cordially, Gregory E. Davis

  13. #13
    ca
    May 2007
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gregory E. Davis View Post
    Good evening gentlemen: Leland Lovelace (Bessie B. Lovelace, real name), Allowed Barry Storm to read her manuscript, "Trail of Disaster" which contained the story of Jacobs and Ludi. She was very much surprised to see that story appear in Storms book. The original name was Ludy but she deliberately changed the name of Ludy to Ludi in her manuscript so she could tell if someone were to ever print that story from her manuscript. Sure enough, Storm spelled the name Ludi. This information comes from an interview with Lovelace by Clay Worst. I do not have a copy of her manuscript and do not know of anyone who has a copy. Cordially, Gregory E. Davis
    Thanks Greg.
    LUDY was the spelling used by James McCarthy in his letter to the editor of the " Tucson Star " (mistake ?) , and published in the Arizona Daily Star July 22/1931.
    Since the article posted was from the Phoenix Gazette, July 18,1931, which McCarthy acknowledges in his letter, I wonder why he took that route in order to have his objections and version of the history published ?
    I suppose it's possible the Phoenix Gazette did not have a "letters" section though .
    When did Lovelace write her manuscript ?
    Hal Croves likes this.
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  14. #14
    pt
    Sep 2014
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    Quote Originally Posted by azdave35 View Post
    alot of writers back in the day had quite a few different aliases they wrote under..there was one author that used to write in all of the treasure and western magazines back in the 50's and 60's...one of his aliases was maurice killdare...he did alot of the arizona based treasure stories...when i first started treasure hunting i chased alot of his stories..i went all over the state checking into these treasure yarns...turns out his brother in law lived in my neighborhood...he sold whites metal detectors out of his house....he asked which treasures i had been looking for and i told him mostly the ones kildare had written about..he busted up laughing ..after he calmed down he told me that was his bro in law...he also said old maurice was full of doo-doo....he pulled out some magazine and showed me all his other aliases...after that i was very skeptical about anything i read ...especially about treasure and lost mines
    And well you should be.
    somehiker and PotBelly Jim like this.
    "Well, yeah, that's just, like, your opinion, man."
    Jeffrey "The Dude" Lebowski, 1998

  15. #15
    us
    Director of Research, Acquisitions, Archives and Library, Superstition Mountain Historical Society,and one of its founders, Member of Arizona First Families, Westerners, Arizona Historical Society, Central Arizona Museum Association and the Dons Club

    Oct 2013
    Tempe, Arizona
    eyeball it
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    All Types Of Treasure Hunting
    Good morning somehiker: I do not know when she wrote her manuscript but it predated Storm's book. Cordially, Gregory E. Davis
    somehiker likes this.

 

 
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