Just what does the LDM cave/mine entrance look like?

[rk85044]

Hello:

First I would like to say that this forum is it's own amazing treasure trove in information about LDM...from all aspects and contributors...both good, bad and ugly. I have learned a great deal from everyone...it does lead me to questions...and from time to time...I get stumped...like with this:

What does the LDM look like?

To me...the only info I have been able to discern is that the cave/mine entrance to the LDM opens to the west...at an unknown angle......and when open....it looks like a bell....with the general dimensions of 4' wide x 12' deep x (who knows how long?)...Then this opening was widened out by 2.5 feet...so the new dims are 6.5 feet wide x 12' deep x (again by who knows long)......Am I correct in this assessment?

THEN...there's the information about the "hiding" of the entrance.....where now we have a descending shaft of approximately 12 feet....and that at about the 6' level from the bottom it was widened out by 2.5 feet to the top where layers of cut timber were placed approximately 4 feet deep where this was covered with approximately 2 feet of soil......(This comes from the Holmes account in multiple books)

In the Reed Letters......he states that they dug to 5 feet when they hit timber....and then beyond that....the shaft.....given Reed's admitted falsehoods in others letters...I'm a bit suspect....

Is this a correct assessment?
What am I missing?

Thank you.
rk85044

 

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[azdave35]

Hello:

First I would like to say that this forum is it's own amazing treasure trove in information about LDM...from all aspects and contributors...both good, bad and ugly. I have learned a great deal from everyone...it does lead me to questions...and from time to time...I get stumped...like with this:

What does the LDM look like?

To me...the only info I have been able to discern is that the cave/mine entrance to the LDM opens to the west...at an unknown angle......and when open....it looks like a bell....with the general dimensions of 4' wide x 12' deep x (who knows how long?)...Then this opening was widened out by 2.5 feet...so the new dims are 6.5 feet wide x 12' deep x (again by who knows long)......Am I correct in this assessment?

THEN...there's the information about the "hiding" of the entrance.....where now we have a descending shaft of approximately 12 feet....and that at about the 6' level from the bottom it was widened out by 2.5 feet to the top where layers of cut timber were placed approximately 4 feet deep where this was covered with approximately 2 feet of soil......(This comes from the Holmes account in multiple books)

In the Reed Letters......he states that they dug to 5 feet when they hit timber....and then beyond that....the shaft.....given Reed's admitted falsehoods in others letters...I'm a bit suspect....

Is this a correct assessment?
What am I missing?

Thank you.
rk85044

its a funnel shaped pit with a straight down shaft at the bottom....shaft goes down about 70 ft and at the bottom is a tunnel

 

[Terry Soloman]

You have to SCUBA to the mine entrance now, as Apache Lake covered it. Once inside, there is an elevated adit off the main shaft, where this photo was taken.

 

[Al D]

its a funnel shaped pit with a straight down shaft at the bottom....shaft goes down about 70 ft and at the bottom is a tunnel

Most likely an air or ventilation shaft, there must be, or must have been another entrance to the tunnel.

 

[dredgernaut]

I.M.O. I don't believe its possible to get a factual answer on what it looks like. until its been confirmed that it has been rediscovered. there are as many theories as there are prospects in those mountains.

 

[azdave35]

I.M.O. I don't believe its possible to get a factual answer on what it looks like. until its been confirmed that it has been rediscovered. there are as many theories as there are prospects in those mountains.

if you ask ten different men..you'll get ten different answers

 

[dredgernaut]

I have more than a few theories myself.. but I am pretty sure its in Az. lol

 

[azdave35]

old john wilburn had a pretty good theory about where the lost dutchman was....according to him it was the old bulldog mine...

 

[Blindbowman]

you will have to know you are there . you will not see it ...there is no way to know it is there .. you can feel it ,if your spirit is looking ....you must pass threw the hole on the trail ... you must first find the house in the cave .. but no one will be home ....see what can not be seen .. walk into the unknown .. stand on the clouds and dance not for the ground is holly under thee ...it is 6 by 6 by 14 ft with a few feet of fill at the bottom ...the vane runs off to the south it starts a few feet behind you ...don't for get to say thank you or the spirits will not let leave ...

 

[Al D]

Alright, who left the gate open...

 

[Oroblanco]

There are at least two different descriptions of what the LDM entrance looks like - the one Dave already posted, which is also found in the Jacobs/Ludi story, and the other one which states the opening is "no larger than a barrel". There is also the cryptic statement by Waltz that you could "lead an Army pack train OVER (emphasis mine not his) the entrance to the mine and not see it". If this statement is true, the mine is in a spot you could lead a mule to, which rules out most of the steep cliffs. As the opening was also concealed, with logs laid in and rocks/dirt to bring it level with the ground and make it undetectable, trying to spot the entrance is going to be about as difficult as spotting fairies licking dewdrops off the clover. The conflicting descriptions of the entrance of the mine also should raise a red flag that there is some mixing of two different stories going on. So you have over 100 different "clues" around 60 or 70 different treasure maps, charts and waybills, not to mention the marked cactus (cactii?) the old Military trail the "silver smelting" evidence found by Bicknell in the stone cabin and you are off to a wild goose chase of epic proportions. Heck you could even throw in the psychic revelations of Edgar Cayce and a Quija board to round it out.

Unless the logs have rotted (and there is reason to believe that may well take centuries more before that happens) or a landslide should uncover the mine, it is highly unlikely that anyone is going to simply walk in and find it.

 

[azdave35]

There are at least two different descriptions of what the LDM entrance looks like - the one Dave already posted, which is also found in the Jacobs/Ludi story, and the other one which states the opening is "no larger than a barrel". There is also the cryptic statement by Waltz that you could "lead an Army pack train OVER (emphasis mine not his) the entrance to the mine and not see it". If this statement is true, the mine is in a spot you could lead a mule to, which rules out most of the steep cliffs. As the opening was also concealed, with logs laid in and rocks/dirt to bring it level with the ground and make it undetectable, trying to spot the entrance is going to be about as difficult as spotting fairies licking dewdrops off the clover. The conflicting descriptions of the entrance of the mine also should raise a red flag that there is some mixing of two different stories going on. So you have over 100 different "clues" around 60 or 70 different treasure maps, charts and waybills, not to mention the marked cactus (cactii?) the old Military trail the "silver smelting" evidence found by Bicknell in the stone cabin and you are off to a wild goose chase of epic proportions. Heck you could even throw in the psychic revelations of Edgar Cayce and a Quija board to round it out.

Unless the logs have rotted (and there is reason to believe that may well take centuries more before that happens) or a landslide should uncover the mine, it is highly unlikely that anyone is going to simply walk in and find it.

wilburn's reasoning was both the ldm and the bulldog had an 18 inch wide vein....and in one of the newspaper articles julia was quoted as saying it was located back and away from the west end of the mountain

 

[Hillbilly Prince]

...So you have over 100 different "clues" around 60 or 70 different treasure maps, charts and waybills, not to mention the marked cactus (cactii?) the old Military trail the "silver smelting" evidence found by Bicknell in the stone cabin and you are off to a wild goose chase of epic proportions. Heck you could even throw in the psychic revelations of Edgar Cayce and a Quija board...

Unless the logs have rotted (and there is reason to believe that may well take centuries more before that happens) or a landslide should uncover the mine, it is highly unlikely that anyone is going to simply walk in and find it.

Guess you earned this
If you want to know more than any human should know about Ouija boards you can go here:
https://www.smithsonianmag.com/hist...ysterious-history-of-the-ouija-board-5860627/

Or you can skip to the bottom snd look at interesting research scientists did on the accuracy of the Ouija board, even employing a robot at one point. Since everything else has been tried why not get four five old LDM hunters together and ask Jacob Waltz where his mine is?
But anyway, is it possible the LDM has already been covered by a landslide?

 

[markmar]

Hello:

First I would like to say that this forum is it's own amazing treasure trove in information about LDM...from all aspects and contributors...both good, bad and ugly. I have learned a great deal from everyone...it does lead me to questions...and from time to time...I get stumped...like with this:

What does the LDM look like?

To me...the only info I have been able to discern is that the cave/mine entrance to the LDM opens to the west...at an unknown angle......and when open....it looks like a bell....with the general dimensions of 4' wide x 12' deep x (who knows how long?)...Then this opening was widened out by 2.5 feet...so the new dims are 6.5 feet wide x 12' deep x (again by who knows long)......Am I correct in this assessment?

THEN...there's the information about the "hiding" of the entrance.....where now we have a descending shaft of approximately 12 feet....and that at about the 6' level from the bottom it was widened out by 2.5 feet to the top where layers of cut timber were placed approximately 4 feet deep where this was covered with approximately 2 feet of soil......(This comes from the Holmes account in multiple books)

In the Reed Letters......he states that they dug to 5 feet when they hit timber....and then beyond that....the shaft.....given Reed's admitted falsehoods in others letters...I'm a bit suspect....

Is this a correct assessment?
What am I missing?

Thank you.
rk85044

What you have to know, is how there are two mines about 230 feet apart, which have the privilege to be called LDM.

One mine is the inclined shaft which goes about 40 feet down ( is also the difference in altitude with the second mine ) and after turns in a tunnel about 6 feet across. This mine is described in the John Reed's letters and is mentioned in a Waltz clue as " an inclined, well hidden and a short distance up on the mountainside". Also this mine is located almost in the arroyo wash and is between of a big rock almost square with an elongated to the left down corner and a natural triangle of rocks.

The second mine, is what Waltz found as an outcrop, before started to dig it out, at the end of the LDM inclined shaft vein. This is the mine which has an unfinished tunnel below and which Waltz stated how has a like a bell shape.
The clue with the setting sun is for this mine, not because the mine is located on a mountainside facing west, but because the mine is covered by big rocks from the east and a cliff from the south, making the sun's rays to shine on the mine only at the sunset. This mine, except the cover that Waltz did, has a big juniper on it which make impossible the cover to cave in even if the logs would be rotten.

 

[Blindbowman]

sorry, Waltz did clearly leave his mark ...! and NO it is as it was the day he left it ...IMHO that statement above is out of text . he says you "could "lead an Army pack train OVER (emphasis mine not his) the entrance to the mine and not see it : OVER the entrance to the mine . the most important wording is : and not see it...!
ask your self . not see what the entrance or the mine ?

 

[Al D]

There is also the cryptic statement by Waltz that you could "lead an Army pack train OVER (emphasis mine not his) the entrance to the mine and not see it".

Not trying to stir anything up, but.....if this statement is true, how could Waltz expect Julia to find it? Even though he did say it was very difficult to find, and that no miner would find it, it seems to me that any hope of Julia finding the mine was doomed from the start.
have a cup on me,

 

[rk85044]

Thank you one and all for your input.
I believe my queston has been answered.

 

[azdave35]

Not trying to stir anything up, but.....if this statement is true, how could Waltz expect Julia to find it? Even though he did say it was very difficult to find, and that no miner would find it, it seems to me that any hope of Julia finding the mine was doomed from the start.
have a cup on me,

alan..i have a problem with most of the ldm clues that have been spread around over the years.....IMO there are 2..possibly 3 locations for the ldm...all but one has been found and worked out

 

[deducer]

Is this a correct assessment?
What am I missing?

Thank you.
rk85044

Depends on what exactly you're looking for.

Do you mean: What did the mine entrance look like? Or what does it look like now?

 

[Al D]

alan..i have a problem with most of the ldm clues that have been spread around over the years.....IMO there are 2..possibly 3 locations for the ldm...all but one has been found and worked out

Hello Dave, upon contemplation of your post.....I think you are correct, it is the only theory that makes sense to me and fits with what info is available. Kudos