Dutchman's Caches

[: Michael-Robert.]

Michael-Robert,
I never got a direct answer to the question I asked 🤷🏼‍♂️😁
Now the question is how to finish sharing my search.
Would it be better for the finder to never say a thing, except to special friends and family? I can’t help but think, that there are a whole bunch of Dutch hunters that would like to know more.

Indirect answers included thoughts of failure, due to some folk getting carried away, and authorities shutting it all Dow, in one fashion or another.
Other thoughts are

Right now, most of us don’t have any gold from his mine. I thought it was a good question.

Idahodutch

6 pages and know one answered your question..... I'm not surprised.
My thoughts, the finder should annouce it... But, it would not be necessary for once assayed, everyone would know.
And, if retired, just share your research. A good person will share with you if found.
If not retired, wait and give to family & friends. Many wait until their dying days. Some great reveals on Tnet by wise old hunters and finders. - Regards

 

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[Blindbowman]

and they said i was off topic ....lol

 

[Idahodutch]

6 pages and know one answered your question..... I'm not surprised.
My thoughts, the finder should annouce it... But, it would not be necessary for once assayed, everyone would know.
And, if retired, just share your research. A good person will share withyou if found.
If not retired, wait and give to family & friends. Many wait until their dying days. Some great reveals on Tnet by wise old hunters and finders. - Regards

Michael-Robert,
Thank you for the response. Until samples are gathered and tested, this is just talking and asking questions 👍

 

[markmar]

IMHO, the two small caches which Waltz buried in the first place and after took them to his house, were the ore extracted by the three Mexicans who Waltz killed in regards to take possession of the inclined shaft mine.
After discovering the gold vein outcropping by following the imaginary course of the vein from the inclined shaft, Waltz dug out the outcrop and made the third cache which left in the new shallow mine he opened. All the clues Waltz told to Julia and Holmes, were for the third gold ore cache and not for the inclined shaft mine. Maybe Waltz felt how he didn't had rights on the inclined shaft mine, and believed the mine opened himself from an outcrop belonged somehow "legally" to him. Seems there was some trace of moral in his comportment.

 

[Idahodutch]

IMHO, the two small caches which Waltz buried in the first place and after took them to his house, were the ore extracted by the three Mexicans who Waltz killed in regards to take possession of the inclined shaft mine.
After discovering the gold vein outcropping by following the imaginary course of the vein from the inclined shaft, Waltz dug out the outcrop and made the third cache which left in the new shallow mine he opened. All the clues Waltz told to Julia and Holmes, were for the third gold ore cache and not for the inclined shaft mine. Maybe Waltz felt how he didn't had rights on the inclined shaft mine, and believed the mine opened himself from an outcrop belonged somehow "legally" to him. Seems there was some trace of moral in his comportment.

Markmar,
I agree that the 2 smaller caches were from ore that the Mexicans dug out from the inclined shaft.
I disagree about Holmes, in that I believe Waltz was directing him back out of the canyon where the hidden camp is, where Julia, he was directing to go directly across of the hidden camp.

The readings we got on the third cache, as far as location and depth, appear to match up to the story that has 6 Mexicans, and the mine with cache on top, being directly across of the hidden camp.

You are free to believe whatever you like 😁👍

This trip will most likely show which of those 2 stories is based on truth, and which one is not.
So far, everything found supports the version with the 6 Mexicans.
it makes a difference being able to confirm things in the field, imho.

Idahodutch

 

[markmar]

Idahodutch

First, the Waltz mine it's not across the canyon from the camp but across the gulch/ravine from the camp. The gulch runs perpendicular to the canyon. So, to make a clear image of the region, there is a canyon below, an elongated hill which has the mines and another elongated hill parallel with the other, on which is the camp.
Waltz meant to go out of the ravine (at its mouth) because there was a reason. The draw/wash in which Waltz mine is located, starts very close to the mouth of the gulch. Waltz named wrong the ravine as a canyon. But like you wrote, you can believe what you want.

 

[Idahodutch]

Idahodutch

First, the Waltz mine it's not across the canyon from the camp but across the gulch/ravine from the camp. The gulch runs perpendicular to the canyon. So, to make a clear image of the region, there is a canyon below, an elongated hill which has the mines and another elongated hill parallel with the other, on which is the camp.
Waltz meant to go out of the ravine (at its mouth) because there was a reason. The draw/wash in which Waltz mine is located, starts very close to the mouth of the gulch. Waltz named wrong the ravine as a canyon. But like you wrote, you can believe what you want.

Markmar,
Not much longer for you to wait 😁👍
I’m going on findings, not altered or made up stuff…..
Clues that have not been altered led me to this location.
You on the other hand, have taken liberties with the clues, making modifications as you see fit.
Since your location does not match up, you think that it’s the clues that are wrong …. 😁
So you changed clues, to make them fit your spot.

There is nothing to argue about. 🎉🤓
Are you going to continue to say things like Waltz naming things incorrectly? Or are you going to start insulting me again?

Changing the story is right up your alley, not mine.

 

[markmar]

Markmar,
Not much longer for you to wait 😁👍
I’m going on findings, not altered or made up stuff…..
Clues that have not been altered led me to this location.
You on the other hand, have taken liberties with the clues, making modifications as you see fit.
Since your location does not match up, you think that it’s the clues that are wrong …. 😁
So you changed clues, to make them fit your spot.

There is nothing to argue about. 🎉🤓
Are you going to continue to say things like Waltz naming things incorrectly? Or are you going to start insulting me again?

Changing the story is right up your alley, not mine.

I don't change any clue. Waltz used both gulch and canyon names, saying "gulch" to Julia and "canyon" to Holmes. Maybe when told Holmes about "canyon", Waltz was very ill and was losing consciousness.

 

[Idahodutch]

I don't change any clue. Waltz used both gulch and canyon names, saying "gulch" to Julia and "canyon" to Holmes. Maybe when told Holmes about "canyon", Waltz was very ill and was losing consciousness.

Believe whatever you like markmar 👍😁

 

[Geoffnotjeff]

One of the most believable clues i have read, came from Ida Homes. She stated that when Waltz, on his deathbed, was trying to get his words out he kept going into convulsions and would have to stop. When he was able to start again, he would be stating different directions than he had been before the convulsions. She believed he was describing different approaches to the mine.

To me, that sounds like exactly the kind of thing a wife would pick up on, and has a strong base of reality for a random note in a book.

 

[Idahodutch]

One of the most believable clues i have read, came from Ida Homes. She stated that when Waltz, on his deathbed, was trying to get his words out he kept going into convulsions and would have to stop. When he was able to start again, he would be stating different directions than he had been before the convulsions. She believed he was describing different approaches to the mine.

To me, that sounds like exactly the kind of thing a wife would pick up on, and has a strong base of reality for a random note in a book.

Good morning GeoffnotJeff,
the death bed confessions, would have been where Ida heard what she describes, except for the fact she was not present.

All of what brownie heard, came from his dad.
I would have to say that everything Ida heard, also came from Dick Holmes.

I certainly agree that Waltz was mixing up directions, at least a little.
More like confused who he was talking to .. ….. when he talks of the hidden camp ….
The distance between his mine and the hidden camp, and the hidden camp itself.

Why did Holmes get directions to go find the hidden camp down in the canyon below, just to then be told to come back up to the top? …. (Then the remaining directions were kept secret and not included in the manuscript.)

So the question of why did Waltz direct Holmes to the hidden camp?
I don’t know….. but that may have been one of those moments??

I personally believe the directional clues, from the manuscript, because it seems they actually exist and most can be found….. just as described. Nothing is out of order either…. Except for the hidden camp, it is unnecessary in order for Holmes to find the other mine (Peralta mine) way up near the very top.
So …… I believe Waltz realized and told Holmes to then come back out of the canyon (to continue to the mine up there).

I think the remaining parts of the manuscript are highly suspect of containing made up stuff. Again, that is my just my opinion, based on other evidence.

Geoff, don’t get me wrong, because I also believe that Waltz did do some of that, but I also think Holmes exaggerated to his wife, just like I think he did to Brownie…. 😉

Sincerely,
Idahodutch

 

[markmar]

One thing we have to keep in our minds, how Dick Holmes didn't find the LDM using the clues given by Waltz on his deathbed confession. Didn't find it when there were only few trails in those mountains, trails which for sure have been used by Indians, Army and miners.
The Army would has only one option to get to the Indian's rancherias, and that would been to follow the Indian traces/paths to their camps. So, a Gov/Military Trail was IMO a precedent Indian trail.

And now here rises a good question: Was that Indian round rock ruin in the saddle a part of a previous Indian rancheria? Remember how in Julia's map there is a reference to an Indian camp.

 

[Idahodutch]

One thing we have to keep in our minds, how Dick Holmes didn't find the LDM using the clues given by Waltz on his deathbed confession. Didn't find it when there were only few trails in those mountains, trails which for sure have been used by Indians, Army and miners.
The Army would has only one option to get to the Indian's rancherias, and that would been to follow the Indian traces/paths to their camps. So, a Gov/Military Trail was IMO a precedent Indian trail.

And now here rises a good question: Was that Indian round rock ruin in the saddle a part of a previous Indian rancheria? Remember how in Julia's map there is a reference to an Indian camp.

Hello markmar,
There are still clues , bits of stories, even things like Weiser or no … things not yet sorted.
One of the things I wondered about, is how come Waltz would know where the trail to San Carlos was located … ??

The first few directional clues from the Holmes manuscript are not cut and dry.

Discussions about those first few directions have almost caused wars 😆
I was taught that the shallows on the Salt were part of the path of Waltz.
Right or wrong, it was an approach from a logical direction.
2nd water may or may not be near the Waltz path. I figured that maybe it is.

Coming in from that general direction, there are not very many choices …. But Boulder canyon seemed to be a likely candidate for part of the trail to San Carlos. Just before getting to the north end of Black Top Mesa, traveling Southbound in Boulder canyon …. There are a couple places where the trail turns to the south.

I think most Dutch hunters of the past , considered the part of the trail where the Calvary trail cuts over to the (Edit: SE)to be very near the point where the trail turns south is at.

I thought this also. However, there is another spot in South bound Boulder trail, that makes a big bend around and then goes to the south.

I don’t think folk looked very good at that 2nd location, to see about the Rock Man clue.

I found a Rock Man by accident …. Taking pictures.
Going to the left of the trail when you see this rock man, takes you eastward over the east ridge of boulder canyon, on past the rock man, if you follow the along the ridge. And then the saddle is unavoidable.

The saddle ties into the ridge, right at the high point, the same point to look north and see 4-peaks looking like 1-peak.
Clues say if you get to that spot, then the hidden camp is below you.

There are multiple versions of the Holmes Manuscript.
The variations with the directional clues, have to do with 2 items.
The rock man, and the saddle.
One version tells of the rock man (no mention of pick marks), but the saddle had a round Indian ruin of rocks on top.
The other version, talks of pick marks on the rock man, but no mention of the Indian ruin on the saddle.

Now, the view of 4 peaks is just like the clue, and a shallow cave fitting the description of the hidden camp is in the canyon below, also matching the wording of the clues precisely.
Now comes the directional clue to come back out of the canyon, back up to where 4-peaks view is, to get secret instructions.

The other mine, that waltz referred to as “his mine”, is located directly across the canyon from the hidden camp … not more than 200’.

I did not find a round ruin of rocks on the saddle. I also did not go up close to the rock man to see if there were pick marks to make the eye.

Does the round Indian ruin of rocks, or pick marks, make a difference, if the view of 4-peaks looking like one peak is actually there?
How about locating the hidden camp down below …. And a gold deposit directly across of the hidden camp?

The goals are the 2 mines, and the cache on top of the mine across of the hidden camp.

My goal is the cache. If that proves out, then the rest is there.

So markmar, this has already happened, with exception of a sample from the gold deposit, that I think is the cache.

I doubt it will match up to any supposed waltz gold.
Reason is because I think the little match box, and the ring and whatever else is known about, came from under waltz’ deathbed.
The stuff under his bed is from the 2nd little cache (imho) ….. the 2 little caches were most likely from the Peralta mine that the Mexicans were working, when Waltz first showed up.

Guys it’s getting down to the wire. Some questions may finally be answered.

If I have time and strength, I want to also see about the status of the upper mine (Peralta inclined mine shaft) 🤷🏼‍♂️

Nobody can claim the LDM.
Samples is the only answer that works for most of us, that I see.
(Once the deposit is positively verified) 👍

 

[markmar]

Hello markmar,
There are still clues , bits of stories, even things like Weiser or no … things not yet sorted.
One of the things I wondered about, is how come Waltz would know where the trail to San Carlos was located … ??

The first few directional clues from the Holmes manuscript are not cut and dry.

Discussions about those first few directions have almost caused wars 😆
I was taught that the shallows on the Salt were part of the path of Waltz.
Right or wrong, it was an approach from a logical direction.
2nd water may or may not be near the Waltz path. I figured that maybe it is.

Coming in from that general direction, there are not very many choices …. But Boulder canyon seemed to be a likely candidate for part of the trail to San Carlos. Just before getting to the north end of Black Top Mesa, traveling Southbound in Boulder canyon …. There are a couple places where the trail turns to the south.

I think most Dutch hunters of the past , considered the part of the trail where the Calvary trail cuts over to the (Edit: SE)to be very near the point where the trail turns south is at.

I thought this also. However, there is another spot in South bound Boulder trail, that makes a big bend around and then goes to the south.

I don’t think folk looked very good at that 2nd location, to see about the Rock Man clue.

I found a Rock Man by accident …. Taking pictures.
Going to the left of the trail when you see this rock man, takes you eastward over the east ridge of boulder canyon, on past the rock man, if you follow the along the ridge. And then the saddle is unavoidable.

The saddle ties into the ridge, right at the high point, the same point to look north and see 4-peaks looking like 1-peak.
Clues say if you get to that spot, then the hidden camp is below you.

There are multiple versions of the Holmes Manuscript.
The variations with the directional clues, have to do with 2 items.
The rock man, and the saddle.
One version tells of the rock man (no mention of pick marks), but the saddle had a round Indian ruin of rocks on top.
The other version, talks of pick marks on the rock man, but no mention of the Indian ruin on the saddle.

Now, the view of 4 peaks is just like the clue, and a shallow cave fitting the description of the hidden camp is in the canyon below, also matching the wording of the clues precisely.
Now comes the directional clue to come back out of the canyon, back up to where 4-peaks view is, to get secret instructions.

The other mine, that waltz referred to as “his mine”, is located directly across the canyon from the hidden camp … not more than 200’.

I did not find a round ruin of rocks on the saddle. I also did not go up close to the rock man to see if there were pick marks to make the eye.

Does the round Indian ruin of rocks, or pick marks, make a difference, if the view of 4-peaks looking like one peak is actually there?
How about locating the hidden camp down below …. And a gold deposit directly across of the hidden camp?

The goals are the 2 mines, and the cache on top of the mine across of the hidden camp.

My goal is the cache. If that proves out, then the rest is there.

So markmar, this has already happened, with exception of a sample from the gold deposit, that I think is the cache.

I doubt it will match up to any supposed waltz gold.
Reason is because I think the little match box, and the ring and whatever else is known about, came from under waltz’ deathbed.
The stuff under his bed is from the 2nd little cache (imho) ….. the 2 little caches were most likely from the Peralta mine that the Mexicans were working, when Waltz first showed up.

Guys it’s getting down to the wire. Some questions may finally be answered.

If I have time and strength, I want to also see about the status of the upper mine (Peralta inclined mine shaft) 🤷🏼‍♂️

Nobody can claim the LDM.
Samples is the only answer that works for most of us, that I see.
(Once the deposit is positively verified) 👍

Yes, seems Waltz used to pass Salt River at the mouth of Cottonwood Creek. The direction to San Carlos, means go to the southeast from that point. So, Boulder Canyon and east from it seems to be not a candidate route for the Military Trail. The most suitable route for the Army in regards to get to the Apache rancherias in the western Superstitions, would been to go through the Frog Tanks to Garden Valley and after to pass over the Black Mesa to the intersection of the three Boulder canyons. From there are only two options to select a route to the next Apache rancheria.

 

[Idahodutch]

Yes, seems Waltz used to pass Salt River at the mouth of Cottonwood Creek. The direction to San Carlos, means go to the southeast from that point. So, Boulder Canyon and east from it seems to be not a candidate route for the Military Trail. The most suitable route for the Army in regards to get to the Apache rancherias in the western Superstitions, would been to go through the Frog Tanks to Garden Valley and after to pass over the Black Mesa to the intersection of the three Boulder canyons. From there are only two options to select a route to the next Apache rancheria.

I liked your response, however, it’s important to remember that Waltz was giving directions to Holmes. Only part of the route was to be on the trail to San Carlos, for a short bit. Just until see the rock man, then go to the left, or East when headed southward prior to going left of trail.
Garden valley to 2nd water, and then just a skip to Boulder Canyon 🤓
I figure the military trail to San Carlos has just as much chance of already being in Boulder Canyon, as not.

Besides, the key is the precise series of clues that follow, beginning with the Rock Man.
I think we are all looking for the destination. 🎉👍👍
When I said that there are still things that are not sorted, the exact path that Waltz had in his mind as the Trail to San Carlos, certainly would fall in that category.

You are more than welcome to chase down some of those things. 👍
I plan to spend some of my time seeing if there is even a sliver of the ore from the Peralta mine up above. I just hope I have the time and strength to do it.

That would possibly end all this picking at each other. Maybe not, but maybe . 😁😆👍

 

[Idahodutch]

This photograph was taken from Boulder Canyon trail, as I was headed south.
My location was south of the junction of Needle Canyon, right after where boulder canyon takes a series of bends … a 90 degree+ a 180 degree + another 90 degree to head south again (degrees are approximate 👌) then After those bends, a little over 1/4 mile, is this view ….

I never got right up close to see if his left eye was enhanced by a pick.
Anyway this clue starts the series of Holmes clues that go to the hidden camp, and by default, his mine with the cache on top. 🤓

Soon enough we will hopefully know 👍

 

[Idahodutch]

of which 4 peaks do you speak?

CN,
I’ll show you what I saw, but I didn’t have a camera. Here are a couple of GE images that should help you with this👍
Browns Peak is the only peak with a name,
And is shown above the skyline.

When viewing from the spot Waltz directs us to, we can see that the 4-peaks are lined up to look like 1-peak.

We can see that all other peaks are blocked by the skyline.
And everything is lined up to where it looks like just one peak. The peak visible is unnamed, as far as I know. 🤷🏼‍♂️

 

[Treasure_Hunter]

Posts deleted, end it or I will. If can't be civil use block feature, you want even see quoted posts then.

 

[SPARTANOC]

I have some potentially good news.
I can’t hardly believe it. It was just yesterday, that things looked a little bleak 🫤.
Then there was a cancellation for the exact surgery that they said I needed, and it was for first thing this morning. I said yes, signed the paperwork, had the surgery, and am now back home.
The surgery was a success…. And was a cure for that particular heart issue.
Recovery is about 2 weeks to get back to light to moderate exercise. Maybe a month or 2 to be up for hiking in the mountains. Maybe a little longer, 🤷🏼‍♂️

If I feel good enough to make the trip, I might make it to Rendezvous after all. 👍
I really am looking forward to meeting a bunch of you guys, if I can make it.
Idahodutch

So good to hear the good news about your health. Our health is the first priority - second is everything else.

 

[Idahodutch]

So good to hear the good news about your health. Our health is the first priority - second is everything else.

Spartanoc,
I had to hurry and knock on wood 🤓

Thanks, but it’s been back and forth (my health). I think when it’s our time, it’s our time.🤷🏼‍♂️
I feel confident that I get to make another trip into the Superstitions, but one never knows what tomorrow holds.
So far, so good … right? 😁👍

Idahodutch