Don Peraltas 1864 Letter to Jacob Waltz - Page 2
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Thread: Don Peraltas 1864 Letter to Jacob Waltz

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  1. #16
    us
    Sep 2019
    Idaho
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    Quote Originally Posted by skyhawk1251 View Post
    "... first go to tordis mountain, then south side go eastward until you find the first gorge on the south side from the west end follow the gorge until you find another trail which will lead you northwards over a lofty (ridge) then downwards past (---) needle to a long canyon and then (left) to a tributary canyon about 35-40 (---) from the end after you find the mine destroy (---)" ... 1864 Don Peralta

    "... (left) to a tributary canyon ..." (left) was my best guess. A closer look says it is definitely not "left," since only compass directions are indicated elsewhere in the letter.
    Skyhawk,
    That makes sense. So either East or West, but either way, it would be a tributary canyon feeding into the main North running canyon. I figured the path to be down past west side of Weavers Needle, then down East Boulder, then turn East into Needle canyon tributary. That path takes you to just South of Marsh Valley. If Needle canyon is the main North canyon, there is no tributary that would take you closer to Marsh Valler, East or West. I never felt like West Boulder was the Trail, because it really doesn't go North directly from Weavers Needle. Yeah, you eventually would end up going North, . . . Just a feeling.
    Idahodutch

  2. #17
    gr
    Oct 2012
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    Quote Originally Posted by skyhawk1251 View Post
    As far as "the gorge" and other details given in the Ortiz Letter and Bicknell's account, I have my own opinion about the route that is described in those two sources. It is a route leading to Marsh Valley. But I'll get to that in another post.
    Could be a good guess, but from there what? Don't forget William Edwards was there few years after the massacre, found many clues of a mining camp, mining equipment and an arrastra, but never the mine itself. His son continued the research many years after also without finding the mine.
    Many known LDM hunters had camped at and researched the Marsh Valley inside-out so to speak, without finding the mine, but of course this doesn't means anybody else would not be able to find it. Like Not Peralta wrote about his gold mine in the Superstitions:

    "...
    the area I talk about was searched by the best for a long time, some claiming one thing then another,the location was very tricky,but,findable . I have looked at its location many times on Google, can you triangulate this, that's why I thought you may enjoy this Marius.np "
    Last edited by markmar; Feb 09, 2020 at 05:06 PM.
    Idahodutch and PotBelly Jim like this.
    Marius

    If your true to your heart, you will never go wrong. The truth is the truth, no matter how you look at it, and in every treasure story and legend there is a grain of truth. It's up to your spirit and heart to know the difference. NP





  3. #18
    us
    Sep 2019
    Idaho
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    Quote Originally Posted by markmar View Post
    Could be a good guess, but from there what? Don't forget William Edwards was there few years after the massacre, found many clues of a mining camp, mining equipment and an arrastra, but never the mine itself. His son continued the research many years after also without finding the mine.
    Many known LDM hunters had camped at and researched the Marsh Valley inside-out so to speak, without finding the mine, but of course this doesn't means anybody else would not be able to find it. Like Not Peralta wrote about his gold mine in the Superstitions:

    "...
    the area I talk about was searched by the best for a long time, some claiming one thing then another,the location was very tricky,but,findable . I have looked at its location many times on Google, can you triangulate this, that's why I thought you may enjoy this Marius.np "
    Markmar,
    I would agree, Marsh Valley would be a destination for its resources to set up a camp. At that time, water year round, room for animals, grazing, but more for a large party.
    I think the Bicknell directions and this letter that's almost the same, are not for Marsh valley, but supposedly to the LDM.
    Idahodutch
    markmar likes this.

  4. #19
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    Howdy Wayne,

    A mess load of maps were turning up at that time. In my honest opinion some were made to try and sell them, while others were made to obtain a grubstake. A prospector could do a lot of prospecting on someone else's dime with a fake map.

    The letter that Skyhawk posted, is a copy made by Gonzalez. Barrigan kept the so called original that Gonzalez had, which had the letter, and map on the same page. But even that one is thought to be a copy.

    The Ortiz letter in my honest opinion was inspired by the story of Waltz helping out Don Peralta in a bar fight in Mexico. I don't believe this ever happened. Waltz may have made that story up to justify his ownership of his mine, and to ease his conscience. In his death bed he confessed that he had killed three Mexicans to take the mine. He even relived all the details of how he went about it. In another of his fake stories, he said shot some Mexicans thinking they were Indians, trying to ease his guilty conscience.

    In my honest opinion neither the letter, or the map lead anywhere, much less the LDM.

    Homar

  5. #20
    us
    Nov 2018
    Kingman, AZ
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    Prospecting
    Quote Originally Posted by Idahodutch View Post
    Markmar,
    I would agree, Marsh Valley would be a destination for its resources to set up a camp. At that time, water year round, room for animals, grazing, but more for a large party.
    I think the Bicknell directions and this letter that's almost the same, are not for Marsh valley, but supposedly to the LDM.
    Idahodutch
    I see Marsh Valley as the best location for a base camp that could satisfy the needs of a large group of miners and their livestock. From the base camp, workers could fan-out to specific mine sites. There also seems to be ample historical evidence of activity by Mexican miners above Marsh Valley on Peters Mesa. All that mining activity points to some rich mines nearby that warranted the ever-present risk of death from natural causes and Indian attacks. I agree, though, that the Ortiz Letter and Bicknell's newspaper article don't give sufficient information to find any mine, including from Marsh Valley as a starting point.
    Last edited by skyhawk1251; Feb 10, 2020 at 05:23 PM. Reason: reduce font size
    somehiker likes this.

  6. #21
    us
    Jul 2015
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    35-40 meters.
    PotBelly Jim likes this.
    CHERISH EVERYTHING IN LIFE, IT ONLY HAPPENS ONCE.

  7. #22
    ca
    May 2007
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    Quote Originally Posted by coazon de oro View Post
    Howdy Wayne,

    A mess load of maps were turning up at that time. In my honest opinion some were made to try and sell them, while others were made to obtain a grubstake. A prospector could do a lot of prospecting on someone else's dime with a fake map.

    The letter that Skyhawk posted, is a copy made by Gonzalez. Barrigan kept the so called original that Gonzalez had, which had the letter, and map on the same page. But even that one is thought to be a copy.

    The Ortiz letter in my honest opinion was inspired by the story of Waltz helping out Don Peralta in a bar fight in Mexico. I don't believe this ever happened. Waltz may have made that story up to justify his ownership of his mine, and to ease his conscience. In his death bed he confessed that he had killed three Mexicans to take the mine. He even relived all the details of how he went about it. In another of his fake stories, he said shot some Mexicans thinking they were Indians, trying to ease his guilty conscience.

    In my honest opinion neither the letter, or the map lead anywhere, much less the LDM.

    Homar
    Thanks for adding your opinion, Homar
    coazon de oro and Oroblanco like this.
    Hell,you ain't never too old to look!

  8. #23
    us
    Dec 2017
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    I did a little research on this subject. It’s possible that the letter is a forgery based on its almost identical directions as Bick’s article. The map, I have no idea.

    Jim Hatt’s timeline was a little off in his posts on the “other bus station” as Marius puts it.

    The lady’s name was actually Genevieve Gutierrez Barragan, vice Barrigan.

    They were of Mexican descent as follows:

    1. Francisco Barragan (possibly the “Frank” referred to in the letter?) Born 1857. MX. Immigrated to USA/AZ 1880. Farm laborer, Florence AZ.

    2. Francisco Barragan Jr., Born AZ 1900. Laundry Operator in Florence.

    3. Ernesto ‘Ernest” Barragan, Born 1924 AZ. Died 25 March 1999. His wife was Genevieve Gutierrez Barragan, who Jim Hatt spoke of. She died April 5, 2003.

    This seems to be Frank Ochoa’s aunt that Jim mentioned. It would appear that the provenance of the map and letter are at least possible using Jim Hatt’s recollections.

    Perhaps one of the other family members was the bailiff, Arnold Ortiz, that told the story to the AZ AG as outlined in Helen Corbin’s book. He later verified that Tom K's copy of the map was probably the same as the one his father used in hunting the mine.

    There also seems to be another family member, a lady from northern AZ, who also had a copy of the map and letter.

    Barragan’s son that possibly had the original map, that Jim was wondering about and was possibly a dentist, was Ernest G. Barragan Jr. I’ll leave it at that…
    azdave35, alan m, markmar and 7 others like this.

  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by PotBelly Jim View Post
    I did a little research on this subject. It’s possible that the letter is a forgery based on its almost identical directions as Bick’s article. The map, I have no idea.

    Jim Hatt’s timeline was a little off in his posts on the “other bus station” as Marius puts it.

    The lady’s name was actually Genevieve Gutierrez Barragan, vice Barrigan.

    They were of Mexican descent as follows:

    1. Francisco Barragan (possibly the “Frank” referred to in the letter?) Born 1857. MX. Immigrated to USA/AZ 1880. Farm laborer, Florence AZ.

    2. Francisco Barragan Jr., Born AZ 1900. Laundry Operator in Florence.

    3. Ernesto ‘Ernest” Barragan, Born 1924 AZ. Died 25 March 1999. His wife was Genevieve Gutierrez Barragan, who Jim Hatt spoke of. She died April 5, 2003.

    This seems to be Frank Ochoa’s aunt that Jim mentioned. It would appear that the provenance of the map and letter are at least possible using Jim Hatt’s recollections.

    Perhaps one of the other family members was the bailiff, Arnold Ortiz, that told the story to the AZ AG as outlined in Helen Corbin’s book. He later verified that Tom K's copy of the map was probably the same as the one his father used in hunting the mine.

    There also seems to be another family member, a lady from northern AZ, who also had a copy of the map and letter.

    Barragan’s son that possibly had the original map, that Jim was wondering about and was possibly a dentist, was Ernest G. Barragan Jr. I’ll leave it at that…
    I forgot to add that Frank "Francisco" Barragan "Jr." was also a long-term employee at St. Joe's Hospital in PHX, according to his obit. All-in-all, the family has a pretty cool history as AZ Pioneers. There's much more to their story than I could post here.

    One other thing that occurred to me was this: I've always read the date on the letter as "March 1894". I just can't see "1864" in it? Anyway, it's at least POSSIBLE that Bick got the directions for his 1895 article based on this letter. He was prospecting and mining in the area where several Barragan family members lived and worked. Bick wrote some other articles in 1894, one of which the directions to the mine seem to be what the "Profile Map" is based on...the directions that mirror the "Ortiz Letter" didn't come until 1895.

  10. #25

    Jan 2014
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    Quote Originally Posted by skyhawk1251 View Post
    I see Marsh Valley as the best location for a base camp that could satisfy the needs of a large group of miners and their livestock. From the base camp, workers could fan-out to specific mine sites. There also seems to be ample historical evidence of activity by Mexican miners above Marsh Valley on Peters Mesa. All that mining activity points to some rich mines nearby that warranted the ever-present risk of death from natural causes and Indian attacks. I agree, though, that the Ortiz Letter and Bicknell's newspaper article don't give sufficient information to find any mine, including from Marsh Valley as a starting point.
    I see Marsh Valley as more of a "transportation hub" for lack of a better word, or a "bus terminal" ("mule train terminal" rather). The Mexicans did frequent it and probably kept reserve livestock there as well as fetch water from Charlebois spring in very dry seasons, or for their arrastras. No matter how dry it got, there was always water in Marsh Valley primarily because of Charlebois spring which is well shaded and deep (see my pic below), which meant vegetation, which meant game. However, they did have their various sites above and surrounding Marsh Valley. There was a large site on Peter's Mesa near the hairpin above Charlebois, the northern end of the lower slopes of Bluff Springs, as well as on top, and also on BTM, and nearby.

    In the wintertimes, the valleys would have been downright cold and it would have been more warmer on the higher grounds, and quite a few firebeds were found by some of the earliest prospectors in the high areas.

    I wouldn't be surprised if Marsh Valley was the point of departure for Mexico proper. The "northern" group from the Indian Springs area would have come down to join the "southern" group at Marsh Valley for the long trek home.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Last edited by deducer; Feb 10, 2020 at 04:05 PM.

  11. #26
    us
    Nov 2018
    Kingman, AZ
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    Quote Originally Posted by nobodie View Post
    35-40 meters.
    Thanks very much, nobodie.

  12. #27
    us
    Apr 2013
    Huntington Beach California
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    Click image for larger version. 

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    Marsh Valley water. At one time there were 3 springs in the bend of Marsh Valley. Two of those springs have stopped flowing although after the February 1980 floods both springs seeped water for a short time. I was in the mountains at that time and marked the site of those two springs. Today only White Rock spring still flows in the Marsh Valley bend. Charleboise spring has always been the best source of water in the area of Marsh Valley.

    There is a well dug just down canyon from where Old and New Squaw canyons meet La Barge canyon.
    This old well is about 10 feet deep and is lined with rock. It periodically fills in with sand and rock but over the years people have dug it out. The last time I saw it was in about 2009 and the sand had filled it to about a foot from the top.
    I don't know who dug this well, cowboys, Mexicans, prospectors .....?

    Marsh Valley was at one time the wettest place in the Superstition Mountains.

  13. #28
    us
    Nov 2018
    Kingman, AZ
    49
    113 times
    Prospecting
    Quote Originally Posted by deducer View Post
    I see Marsh Valley as more of a "transportation hub" for lack of a better word, or a "bus terminal" ("mule train terminal" rather). The Mexicans did frequent it and probably kept reserve livestock there as well as fetch water from Charlebois spring in very dry seasons, or for their arrastras. No matter how dry it got, there was always water in Marsh Valley primarily because of Charlebois spring which is well shaded and deep (see my pic below), which meant vegetation, which meant game. However, they did have their various sites above and surrounding Marsh Valley. There was a large site on Peter's Mesa near the hairpin above Charlebois, the northern end of the lower slopes of Bluff Springs, as well as on top, and also on BTM, and nearby.

    In the wintertimes, the valleys would have been downright cold and it would have been more warmer on the higher grounds, and quite a few firebeds were found by some of the earliest prospectors in the high areas.

    I wouldn't be surprised if Marsh Valley was the point of departure for Mexico proper. The "northern" group from the Indian Springs area would have come down to join the "southern" group at Marsh Valley for the long trek home.

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Charlebois.jpg 
Views:	22 
Size:	504.9 KB 
ID:	1800180
    You're always right on target, deducer. Sherlock would be proud of you. Also, most probably know that Marsh Valley was once a very lush place, with good forage for livestock and multiple springs for water sources. Not like it is now. It must have seemed like paradise to the Mexican miners. As a hospitable base camp and starting point, the Marsh Valley encampment would have enabled relatively long distance forays to mines by smaller groups of miners.

  14. #29

    Jan 2014
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    Quote Originally Posted by Matthew Roberts View Post
    There is a well dug just down canyon from where Old and New Squaw canyons meet La Barge canyon.
    This old well is about 10 feet deep and is lined with rock. It periodically fills in with sand and rock but over the years people have dug it out. The last time I saw it was in about 2009 and the sand had filled it to about a foot from the top.
    I don't know who dug this well, cowboys, Mexicans, prospectors .....?
    Could this be the same well described by Edwards in his diary as quoted in Helen Corbin's "The Bible"?

    If it is on the east side, then that's a strong likelihood it was built by Mexicans since it predated Edwards.

    Edwards described going up a trail in a deep and box-like canyon above this well that led to a large mining operation site.

  15. #30

    Jan 2014
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    Quote Originally Posted by skyhawk1251 View Post
    You're always right on target, deducer. Sherlock would be proud of you. Also, most probably know that Marsh Valley was once a very lush place, with good forage for livestock and multiple springs for water sources. Not like it is now. It must have seemed like paradise to the Mexican miners. As a hospitable base camp and starting point, the Marsh Valley encampment would have enabled relatively long distance forays to mines by smaller groups of miners.
    It's rather an old theory- not really mine. A lot of people have been over the grounds of Marsh Valley. I read that someone or a group did a grid by grid search of the area- that took years.

    Really doubt there is anything left that's easy picking, today.

    I'm just glad there's finally a thread with intelligent discussion. That tends to keep the trolls away.

 

 
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