Don Peraltas 1864 Letter to Jacob Waltz - Page 3
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Thread: Don Peraltas 1864 Letter to Jacob Waltz

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  1. #31
    us
    Apr 2013
    Huntington Beach California
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    deducer,

    That old well at the point of LaBarge and Squaw canyons (east side) has been known from early times. Bark and Ely knew of it and Cavaness before them so there is no telling how old it is.
    The positioning of that well where it is makes one think something was going on farther up Squaw canyons and the well served as a water source in dry times when LaBarge creek stopped running. It is one mile from that well to the bend in Marsh Valley and another mile to Charliboise spring. The big flat area just to the west of the bend in Marsh Valley was the site of a large encampment and one book tells of a Mexican racetrack being on that flat.

  2. #32
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    Sep 2019
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    Quote Originally Posted by Matthew Roberts View Post
    Attachment 1800281

    Marsh Valley water. At one time there were 3 springs in the bend of Marsh Valley. Two of those springs have stopped flowing although after the February 1980 floods both springs seeped water for a short time. I was in the mountains at that time and marked the site of those two springs. Today only White Rock spring still flows in the Marsh Valley bend. Charleboise spring has always been the best source of water in the area of Marsh Valley.

    There is a well dug just down canyon from where Old and New Squaw canyons meet La Barge canyon.
    This old well is about 10 feet deep and is lined with rock. It periodically fills in with sand and rock but over the years people have dug it out. The last time I saw it was in about 2009 and the sand had filled it to about a foot from the top.
    I don't know who dug this well, cowboys, Mexicans, prospectors .....?

    Marsh Valley was at one time the wettest place in the Superstition Mountains.
    If the writing on the old map/map copy was for leading to Marsh Valley, and it is by way of the tributary canyon that you go. It appears that Needle Canyon would match up to be it. . . through a gorge on the south side, up over a lofty ridge, down past (hidden) Needle into a canyon . . then tributary canyon. . . . and then you're there.
    If the letter was 1894, it was likely that Marsh Valley was still the premium spot for water. So perhaps that is what the letter was giving directions to.
    Almost the exact same directions as Bicknell wrote, telling how to get somewhere . . probably very close to Marsh Valley then. Except if you pass the red hills, you've gone too far

    Idaho Dutch
    Last edited by Idahodutch; Feb 10, 2020 at 09:14 PM.

  3. #33
    um
    Nemo me impune lacesset

    Jan 2005
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    Quote Originally Posted by PotBelly Jim View Post
    I forgot to add that Frank "Francisco" Barragan "Jr." was also a long-term employee at St. Joe's Hospital in PHX, according to his obit. All-in-all, the family has a pretty cool history as AZ Pioneers. There's much more to their story than I could post here.

    One other thing that occurred to me was this: I've always read the date on the letter as "March 1894". I just can't see "1864" in it? Anyway, it's at least POSSIBLE that Bick got the directions for his 1895 article based on this letter. He was prospecting and mining in the area where several Barragan family members lived and worked. Bick wrote some other articles in 1894, one of which the directions to the mine seem to be what the "Profile Map" is based on...the directions that mirror the "Ortiz Letter" didn't come until 1895.
    That is interesting in light of the timeline of events, since Jacob Waltz passed away in 1891. It is not that unusual for someone to not get word of the death of a friend for several years, but it is another eyebrow raising point if it is in fact supposed to be read as 1894.

    Last edited by Oroblanco; Feb 10, 2020 at 10:32 PM. Reason: spotted error
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  4. #34

    Jan 2014
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    3753 times
    Quote Originally Posted by Matthew Roberts View Post
    deducer,

    That old well at the point of LaBarge and Squaw canyons (east side) has been known from early times. Bark and Ely knew of it and Cavaness before them so there is no telling how old it is.
    The positioning of that well where it is makes one think something was going on farther up Squaw canyons and the well served as a water source in dry times when LaBarge creek stopped running. It is one mile from that well to the bend in Marsh Valley and another mile to Charliboise spring. The big flat area just to the west of the bend in Marsh Valley was the site of a large encampment and one book tells of a Mexican racetrack being on that flat.
    Squaw Canyon is a very interesting place. There's more than a handful of old trails there that go up and over to Peter's Mesa, and to Peter's Canyon.

    And the part of Peter's trail, which of course links up to Indian Spring, that forms the hairpin wrapping around the south side of the mesa.

  5. #35
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    Sep 2019
    Idaho
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    Quote Originally Posted by Idahodutch View Post
    If the writing on the old map/map copy was for leading to Marsh Valley, and it is by way of the tributary canyon that you go. It appears that Needle Canyon would match up to be it. . . through a gorge on the south side, up over a lofty ridge, down past (hidden) Needle into a canyon . . then tributary canyon. . . . and then you're there.
    If the letter was 1894, it was likely that Marsh Valley was still the premium spot for water. So perhaps that is what the letter was giving directions to.
    Almost the exact same directions as Bicknell wrote, telling how to get somewhere . . probably very close to Marsh Valley then. Except if you pass the red hills, you've gone too far

    Idaho Dutch

    Here is an overhead GE shot of the area.

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Marsh Valley.jpg 
Views:	49 
Size:	575.9 KB 
ID:	1800378

  6. #36
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    Here is a shot of the area, but just a bit closer to look at Needle Canyon through this area.

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Needle Canyon.JPG 
Views:	52 
Size:	871.7 KB 
ID:	1800381

    As a lot of you know, I do like this ravine.
    Idaho Dutch

  7. #37
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    Dec 2017
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oroblanco View Post
    That is interesting in light of the timeline of events, since Jacob Waltz passed away in 1891. It is not that unusual for someone to not get word of the death of a friend for several years, but it is another eyebrow raising point if it is in fact supposed to be read as 1894.

    The March, 1894 date is just what I see when I look at the letter in Helen’s “Curse”. I’ve seen it stated that the date was 1864 and 1884 in different books. Which brings up two problems with the letter:

    1. All the surviving copies are said to be just that…copies. I’m assuming they mean hand-transcribed copies, as Xerox wasn’t around yet. Was the original letter in Spanish? Was it translated into English when transcribed? Were the copies in existence transcribed at different times, even perhaps by different people? Might explain why it’s said there are differences between the surviving copies of the letter.

    2. The big one for me, is that we have one “Don Pedro Peralta” claiming to have a large land grant in Arizona. In an historical context, this doesn’t make any sense. I highly doubt anyone with the surname Peralta would go around claiming a large land grant in AZ so soon after Reavis was debunked.

    It wasn’t “en vogue” to mention a Peralta land grant again until the Howland’s came on the scene. 50 some-odd years after the fact, when the scam was a distant memory. They always talked about Don “Miguel” Peralta, though, not “Pedro”. The big red-herring for me in this letter is it’s supposedly from Don “Pedro” Peralta…whose connection to the Supes seems to be started by Barry Storm…so I’m inclined to believe this letter, or at least the reference to Pedro, is post-1945.

  8. #38
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    Sep 2019
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    Quote Originally Posted by skyhawk1251 View Post
    Does anyone have the complete text of Don Peralta's 1864 letter to Jacob Waltz? I'm able to read most, but not all, of the words. The words that I can't read I've indicated as (---). Also, when Don Peralta wrote "tordis," was he trying to write the English word "tortoise," instead of using the Spanish word "tortuga?"

    "... first go to tordis mountain, then south side go eastward until you find the first gorge on the south side from the west end follow the gorge until you find another trail which will lead you northwards over a lofty (ridge) then downwards past (---) needle to a long canyon and then (left) to a tributary canyon about 35-40 (---) from the end after you find the mine destroy (---)" ... 1864 Don Peralta

    I've included, below, Bicknell's wording from his newspaper article, which has similarities to the Peralta letter, but Bicknell's source was oral testimony from Julia Thomas, as I understand it from the historical records.

    "... The mine lies within an imaginary circle, whose diameter is not more than 5 miles, and whose center is marked by the Weaver's Needle, which is about 2,500 feet higher, among a confusion of lesser peaks and mountain masses of basaltic rock. The first gorge on the south side from the west end of the range. They found a monumental trail which lead them northward past Sombrero Butte into a long canyon. Travel northward in the gorge and up over a lofty ridge, thence downward past the Needle into a canyon running north, and finally into a tributary canyon, very steep and rocky, and densely wooded with a continuous thicket of scrub oak."

    And, what do most who are reading this post assume to be "the gorge" mentioned in Don Peralta's letter? I'm assuming that the Mexican miners would have chosen the easiest passage into the Superstitions. It would be an existing trail, monumented, not too steep for their horses, pack animals, and livestock, and preferably having a water source at, or very near, the trailhead.
    Skyhawk,
    in looking to see if more of Bicknell's directions fit along with this, here is a GE snip showing the distance from the center of that interesting spot in Needle Canyon, to the center of Weavers Needle.

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	5 Mile Diameter.JPG 
Views:	27 
Size:	436.0 KB 
ID:	1800689


    Idaho Dutch
    PS - The statement from Bicknell's directions talking about Weavers Needle height, is not exactly the same in the different versions of this clue. In one of the versions I read some time ago, it was not referencing the height of Weavers Needle compared to other peaks around, but rather it was getting back to describing the location of the mine; . . . center is marked by Weavers Needle, about 2500' high, among a confusion of lesser peaks and . . .
    What is interesting about this, is that spot in Needle Canyon, part way up the ravine, is above 2500', but less than 2600' elevation. Not sure which way the statement is actually supposed to be, but the height of Weavers Needle in comparison to other peaks around, in my mind, does not follow the flow of thought of describing the mine's location.
    Last edited by Idahodutch; Feb 11, 2020 at 08:33 PM.

  9. #39
    um
    Nemo me impune lacesset

    Jan 2005
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    Quote Originally Posted by Idahodutch View Post
    Here is a shot of the area, but just a bit closer to look at Needle Canyon through this area.

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Needle Canyon.JPG 
Views:	52 
Size:	871.7 KB 
ID:	1800381

    As a lot of you know, I do like this ravine.
    Idaho Dutch
    Have you been to that area? Thanks in advance.

    Idahodutch and skyhawk1251 like this.
    SUPPORT THE BEEF INDUSTRY - EAT BEEF
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  10. #40
    us
    Sep 2019
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oroblanco View Post
    Have you been to that area? Thanks in advance.

    Hello Oro,
    I have.
    Oroblanco and skyhawk1251 like this.

  11. #41
    um
    Nemo me impune lacesset

    Jan 2005
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    Quote Originally Posted by Idahodutch View Post
    Hello Oro,
    I have.
    Any photos you care to share? Thanks in advance, and if you would rather not post them I understand completely and won't be offended.

    SUPPORT THE BEEF INDUSTRY - EAT BEEF
    "We must find a way, or we will make one."--Hannibal Barca

  12. #42
    us
    Sep 2019
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oroblanco View Post
    Any photos you care to share? Thanks in advance, and if you would rather not post them I understand completely and won't be offended.

    Oro,
    I wish I did, I would have liked to use more than GE for the Dutchman's Catches thread too. Had to barrow a couple from the net, for posting about Aylors Arch.
    Young and dumb, Isn''t that what they say
    Idaho Dutch

  13. #43
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    Sep 2019
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    Quote Originally Posted by Idahodutch View Post
    Oro,
    I wish I did, I would have liked to use more than GE for the Dutchman's Catches thread too. Had to barrow a couple from the net, for posting about Aylors Arch.
    Young and dumb, Isn''t that what they say
    Idaho Dutch
    Oro,
    Most of my time in there, I was quite a bit younger. The small cameras they started to come out with , the kind you use once and toss. . . the pices are not very good, and I wasn't a photographer, so spend money on something that I didn't even know how to care for, into the supers, just wasn't something that I spent much time thinking about.

    Also, I never would have believed that one day I would talk about search secrets on a public forum. . . .

    Maybe, if there is a next time, I think I'll try to work something out
    That was a good question Oro.
    Idaho Dutch
    (edit; I just re-read this post and it sounds almost sarcastic. it was not meant that way. )
    Last edited by Idahodutch; Feb 11, 2020 at 10:19 PM.

  14. #44
    us
    Nov 2018
    Kingman, AZ
    49
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    Prospecting
    Quote Originally Posted by Idahodutch View Post
    Oro,
    Most of my time in there, I was quite a bit younger. The small cameras they started to come out with , the kind you use once and toss. . . the pices are not very good, and I wasn't a photographer, so spend money on something that I didn't even know how to care for, into the supers, just wasn't something that I spent much time thinking about.

    Also, I never would have believed that one day I would talk about search secrets on a public forum. . . .

    Maybe, if there is a next time, I think I'll try to work something out
    That was a good question Oro.
    Idaho Dutch
    (edit; I just re-read this post and it sounds almost sarcastic. it was not meant that way. )
    Hope you don't die without revealing your search secrets to family members and trusted friends. One Dutchman is more than enough. I'm still thinking about Tom Kollenborn's passing, and all his life experience that has been lost. Fortunately, he left behind some maps and many newspaper articles that he wrote, but I'm wondering if he left directions to his secret Crystal Cave and other "mystic" locations. I think everyone who has secret locations and searches should leave them as a legacy to the next generation, and that way many mysteries will be solved.

  15. #45
    us
    Sep 2019
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    Quote Originally Posted by skyhawk1251 View Post
    Hope you don't die without revealing your search secrets to family members and trusted friends. One Dutchman is more than enough. I'm still thinking about Tom Kollenborn's passing, and all his life experience that has been lost. Fortunately, he left behind some maps and many newspaper articles that he wrote, but I'm wondering if he left directions to his secret Crystal Cave and other "mystic" locations. I think everyone who has secret locations and searches should leave them as a legacy to the next generation, and that way many mysteries will be solved.
    Skyhawk,
    I did a thread Dutchman's Caches, and spelled out quit a bit. I wasn't a forum guy, so it took longer than I thought. Pick a location clue, and most likely it fits that ravine. Even 4 Peaks as one is there.
    I don't think today's hunters know the geography in there as well as the hunters a few decades ago. I thought for sure that everybody knew exactly where I was talking about, but apparently not. The interesting ravine I pointed out here, is the same ravine in Dutchman's Caches.
    Idahodutch
    Last edited by Idahodutch; Feb 12, 2020 at 04:16 PM.
    skyhawk1251 and Oroblanco like this.

 

 
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