Don Peraltas 1864 Letter to Jacob Waltz - Page 7
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Thread: Don Peraltas 1864 Letter to Jacob Waltz

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  1. #91
    pt
    Sep 2014
    2,848
    7404 times
    The facts behind the factoids
    Quote Originally Posted by Loke View Post
    ... you go out there with a GPS, and it surely doesn't give township/range/section!! It gives you lat/lon/height (to an astonishing accuracy) - so somehow you have to convert that to trs-coordinates - life ain't always easy!
    The hand-helds are great, but you can never expect more than 25' true accuracy simply because the coordinates readout is only to 5 decimal points, not to mention the satellite drift. That accuracy is way good enough though for what most of us are using it for.

    However, remember that many older topos were created using NAD27 earth datum, while everything now is WGS84. The coordinates for them (lat/long, UTM, or whatever you use) may vary by 200-300 feet for the same point on the ground. You can use either system, but make sure you use the same one all the time. My searching buddy (a stubborn traditionalist) insists on always using NAD27 because we usually use old topos and he uses the old MapTech computer application. I've been plotting the same data on GE because of the photographic advantages it provides. However, GE is WGS84, so if we're exchanging data, one of us must always remember to convert to coordinates to what the other guy uses, or else one of us will be way off position on the ground.
    "Well, yeah, that's just, like, your opinion, man."
    Jeffrey "The Dude" Lebowski, 1998

  2. #92

    Mar 2015
    1,075
    4648 times
    All Types Of Treasure Hunting
    Does anyone have a better picture of the alleged Don Peraltas 1864 letter to Waltz?

    Kanacki
    Oroblanco likes this.

  3. #93
    ca
    May 2007
    3,994
    5542 times
    All Types Of Treasure Hunting
    Quote Originally Posted by sdcfia View Post
    Of course you wouldn't pack a chain, but if you knew a map was annotated in chains - not feet, yards, meters, varas, leagues, miles, or anything else - you could convert the numbers and then use them accordingly.

    This brings up a good point re "thinking out of the box". If one was preparing a "treasure map" and wanted to add some obvious security to it, he might very well obfuscate the information by monkeying with the length units, directions, rotation, place names, landmarks, et al. "Too far out of the box" for a searcher might translate to "Ha ha, it worked!" for the hider. If those Peralta stone maps are of any value at all, then based on the apparent failure of all those who have tried to solve them, it seems like their creator was definitely thinking out of the box in some way.
    Must have been a tough job, deciding on what, where, and how many obfuscations to use for all those treasure map makers back then. That and digging holes to hide their goodies in.......and for the miners, more work than finding their gold/silver in the first place. I guess it might have been easier, had they each left a "legend" with each map they made, so that all us T-Her's could figger out what they did try to show, to at least their own trusted family or friends, an un-monkeyed with "where" to look....were they no longer around to guide them personally. Gotta admit though, that a hearty "ha-ha" might have relieved, in a comedic sort of way the angst of many a trickster as he went west.
    Oh well. their omissions of explanation are our gain. At least in having something to spend our time and after-tax dollars/euros/pesos/dinars/yen and bonus bucks on while chasing rainbows and battling windmills out there. For me, it beats the hell out of shuffle board, card games, and trying to remember if I pooped yesterday.

    The " Peralta" stone maps ?
    It's only my opinion, but that one's a "box" of half eaten crayons. And anyone boarding that all too popular ride is entitled to a piece of their own to chew I guess. That, and a window to lick while their "expedition" winds it's way down the "Peralta Trail", looking for hidden mines and/or the Peralta treasure room or cache(s). Been there/done that myself.....so to speak. And while, in the beginning I actually liked the taste of the mission treasure-flavored version, it wasn't worth the aftertaste.
    The "value" of the stones to me, is buried within the research I've done and the knowledge I've gained while both in and now out of THAT particular box.....some on the outside.....but with the greater amount occupying another stone box entirely. That one labeled "SANTA FE".
    Hell,you ain't never too old to look!

  4. #94
    us
    Dec 2017
    636
    1876 times
    All Types Of Treasure Hunting
    Dang. Well said.

  5. #95
    us
    Sep 2019
    Idaho
    Whites MXT
    277
    386 times
    Cache Hunting
    Quote Originally Posted by Idahodutch View Post
    Guys,
    I can't tell if the letter says meters or not, but Markmar's eyes are pretty good. What does interst me about this, is I have spent many hours / days, perhaps an accumulation of weeks, looking at that ravine, and the sweet spot starts at a little over 100' above the canyon floor. And really, "about 2500' high" is amazingly there.
    I can't explain how we got the clues anymore than anyone else. The 3000 meters used in the German clue could very well how Julia remembered the distance. Waltz may have explained it to her so that she understood. Perahs she could have related to meters, but not yards or miles. The clue is not a deal breaker, there are many springs in there, so I wasn't in a hurry, there were other priorities.
    What is that saying. . . If the clue fits, wear it.
    Idahodutch
    I re-read this and should clarify a couple of points.
    1) markmar's eyes are pretty good - I was referring to his extra readings on the letter, and the distance from the bottom.
    2) about 2500' - from a version of Bicknells directions that appear to be referring to the approximate elevation of the mine.
    Idahodutch
    Ps- it is not like these clues are the only ones. I have to confess that since already being aware that Bicknells directions fit this ravine, I took the opportunity to bring it to light a little bit.
    I wanted to apologize to skyhawk for taking the thread sideways, and would be interested in hearing about what his thread here was intended to be about.
    Sincerely, Idaho Dutch

  6. #96
    us
    Sep 2019
    Idaho
    Whites MXT
    277
    386 times
    Cache Hunting
    Ok, last clarification. Both, the distance from bottom, and approximate elevation of the mine are, imho, unverified/un-collaborated interpretations, just that I found it interesting.

    All the discussion on various methods of measuring and surveying was very good, the discussions of Marsh Valley, and the strategic location. . . All great discussions. There are a lot of highly skilled folks on this forum that bring a wealth of experience and information to the table. I'm still kind of a newby here, so just expressing some gratitude for this venue being available for this to happen.
    Idahodutch
    somehiker, sdcfia, alan m and 2 others like this.

  7. #97
    us
    Nov 2018
    Kingman, AZ
    49
    113 times
    Prospecting
    Quote Originally Posted by Idahodutch View Post
    I re-read this and should clarify a couple of points.
    1) markmar's eyes are pretty good - I was referring to his extra readings on the letter, and the distance from the bottom.
    2) about 2500' - from a version of Bicknells directions that appear to be referring to the approximate elevation of the mine.
    Idahodutch
    Ps- it is not like these clues are the only ones. I have to confess that since already being aware that Bicknells directions fit this ravine, I took the opportunity to bring it to light a little bit.
    I wanted to apologize to skyhawk for taking the thread sideways, and would be interested in hearing about what his thread here was intended to be about.
    Sincerely, Idaho Dutch
    The purpose of this thread was to determine if anyone had the complete text of the Ortiz Letter. Some words in the letter, as it is reproduced in books, are not readable. Forum members were able to provide the missing words to my satisfaction. The Ortiz Letter is, in my opinion, a hoax, penned by some prankster sometime after Bicknell's newspaper article was published. I say that because the prankster used much of the same wording as contained in Bicknell's article, although the prankster added some of his own embellishments. The Ortiz Letter is totally inadequate to lead anyone to any mine site, but I intend to use it as a guide to a general vicinity in the Superstition Mountains. My chosen route will, without any doubt, be different from routes chosen by other forum members who have read the Ortiz Letter, thus proving that it can mean many things to many people, and that it is a worthless piece of paper. By the way, the prankster tried to be somewhat historically accurate by using meters as units of measurement. Mexico officially adopted the metric system March 15, 1857. Germany went metric in 1872.

  8. #98
    us
    Apr 2013
    Huntington Beach California
    847
    3618 times
    All Types Of Treasure Hunting
    skyhawk1251 wrote: Mexico officially adopted the metric system March 15, 1857. Germany went metric in 1872.

    Historical Note* On May 17, 1866 the 39th US Congress under HR596 also known as the Kasson Act, legalized, authorized and protected the use of the Metric System within the United States and provided the official metric conversion table.

  9. #99
    gr
    Oct 2012
    White's Spectrum XLT
    3,360
    5283 times
    All Types Of Treasure Hunting
    Quote Originally Posted by skyhawk1251 View Post
    The purpose of this thread was to determine if anyone had the complete text of the Ortiz Letter. Some words in the letter, as it is reproduced in books, are not readable. Forum members were able to provide the missing words to my satisfaction. The Ortiz Letter is, in my opinion, a hoax, penned by some prankster sometime after Bicknell's newspaper article was published. I say that because the prankster used much of the same wording as contained in Bicknell's article, although the prankster added some of his own embellishments. The Ortiz Letter is totally inadequate to lead anyone to any mine site, but I intend to use it as a guide to a general vicinity in the Superstition Mountains. My chosen route will, without any doubt, be different from routes chosen by other forum members who have read the Ortiz Letter, thus proving that it can mean many things to many people, and that it is a worthless piece of paper. By the way, the prankster tried to be somewhat historically accurate by using meters as units of measurement. Mexico officially adopted the metric system March 15, 1857. Germany went metric in 1872.

    I can't say with certitude how Bicknell article was the original description of the route written in the Ortiz letter. There is a difference only in few details of this route to lead someone to the LDM or to the Gonzalez-Two Soldiers mine. Actually they used the same route in some way, but at one point they took different paths.
    I wrote in a previous post how my opinion is the Ortiz letter is for the Gonzalez mine because this mine is located 30-40 meters from the canyon floor versus the LDM which is more higher.
    There is a detail in the original map which makes the difference but seems nobody has recognized it.
    Last edited by markmar; Feb 15, 2020 at 05:29 PM.
    Marius

    If your true to your heart, you will never go wrong. The truth is the truth, no matter how you look at it, and in every treasure story and legend there is a grain of truth. It's up to your spirit and heart to know the difference. NP





  10. #100
    us
    May 2010
    texas
    1,454
    3216 times
    All Types Of Treasure Hunting
    Howdy All,

    If Mexico adopted the metric system in March 15, 1857, it was because it was already being used by many. One example would be in the Salazar Survey by Clay Worst. According to Mr. Salazar, the Peralta's surveyed the mine in April 13, 1854. We know surveyors can't use their chains to get all measurements, computations are used, and they did theirs in meters. They said that a pinnacle known as El Sombrero was 14 kilometers from the Salt River. If you check it out with the google earth ruler set at kilometers, you will find that Weaver's Needle is exactly 14 kilometers from the Salt River. This not only verifies that they used the metric system, it also verifies that Weaver's Needle is indeed the actual pinnacle known as El Sombrero. There are some who call other pinnacle's El Sombrero just to make their theory fit.

    Another thing that I want to add is that Ed Gunter's chain was not the only chain used. Most Spanish, and Mexican land grants were surveyed using the Vara, or Texas chain which was 20 varas, or 55 1/2 feet.

    Homar
    Last edited by coazon de oro; Feb 15, 2020 at 11:14 PM. Reason: replaced spacing lost with go advanced feature

  11. #101
    us
    Sep 2019
    Idaho
    Whites MXT
    277
    386 times
    Cache Hunting
    Quote Originally Posted by markmar View Post
    I can't say with certitude how Bicknell article was the original description of the route written in the Ortiz letter. There is a difference only in few details of this route to lead someone to the LDM or to the Gonzalez-Two Soldiers mine. Actually they used the same route in some way, but at one point they took different paths.
    I wrote in a previous post how my opinion is the Ortiz letter is for the Gonzalez mine because this mine is located 30-40 meters from the canyon floor versus the LDM which is more higher.
    There is a detail in the original map which makes the difference but seems nobody has recognized it.
    Markmar,
    The Gonzalez mine; I am not familiar with the story, or the time frame involved. The 2 soldiers. . . 1884 approx come to mind, but not sure on that.
    Maybe if it just happened to be while waltz was not in there. I recall something about Waltz being disturbed that someone had been to the mine. So were they mining two mines in the same ravine, somewhat concurrently? Not saying same day. Back in the day, I'm sure that would wig out most folk to find a nother mine in the same ravine, a short distance, that was obviously being worked by someone else, and recently.
    Idahodutch
    Last edited by Idahodutch; Feb 15, 2020 at 10:41 PM.
    Oroblanco and skyhawk1251 like this.

  12. #102
    um
    Nemo me impune lacesset

    Jan 2005
    DAKOTA TERRITORY
    Tesoro Lobo Supertraq, (95%) Garrett Scorpion (5%)
    7,726
    9215 times
    Quote Originally Posted by Matthew Roberts View Post
    skyhawk1251 wrote: Mexico officially adopted the metric system March 15, 1857. Germany went metric in 1872.

    Historical Note* On May 17, 1866 the 39th US Congress under HR596 also known as the Kasson Act, legalized, authorized and protected the use of the Metric System within the United States and provided the official metric conversion table.
    This is true of course, however I would also point out that the Metric system was OPTIONAL in Mexico starting in 1857, it was not compulsory until 1896.

    I would also point out that most people stick with the measurement system they are taught in childhood and grow up with, it is just more natural since it is 'ingrained' in our 'potty training' as Loke would say. If you look at documents from the period in Arizona you won't find many uses of the Metric system for anything. Also, the older system in Mexico continued to be used at least up until 1927. It is certainly possible that Don Pedro wrote to Jacob Waltz describing the distances in meters in 1864, but it seems highly unlikely to me.

    The Salazar survey is a different case - as a SURVEY done by a surveying party, it would be totally logical for them to have adopted the metric measurement system.

    I would like to see some documentation to show Jacob Waltz, Julia Thomas , Reiney Petrasch or others of the 'first' Dutch hunters using the Metric system for measurements. I have never seen any.

    SUPPORT THE BEEF INDUSTRY - EAT BEEF
    "We must find a way, or we will make one."--Hannibal Barca

  13. #103
    us
    Sep 2019
    Idaho
    Whites MXT
    277
    386 times
    Cache Hunting
    Quote Originally Posted by Idahodutch View Post
    Markmar,
    The Gonzalez mine; I am not familiar with the story, or the time frame involved. The 2 soldiers. . . 1884 approx come to mind, but not sure on that.
    Maybe if it just happened to be while waltz was not in there. I recall something about Waltz being disturbed that someone had been to the mine. So were they mining two mines in the same ravine, somewhat concurrently? Not saying same day. Back in the day, I'm sure that would wig out most folk to find a nother mine in the same ravine, a short distance, that was obviously being worked by someone else, and recently.
    Idahodutch
    Markmar,
    I found a thread you started called "Gonzales' Mina", and it was helpful and interesting.
    Idahodutch
    Last edited by Idahodutch; Feb 18, 2020 at 09:25 PM.
    markmar and Oroblanco like this.

 

 
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