Don Peraltas 1864 Letter to Jacob Waltz
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  1. #1
    us
    Nov 2018
    Kingman, AZ
    49
    113 times
    Prospecting

    Don Peralta's 1864 Letter to Jacob Waltz

    Does anyone have the complete text of Don Peralta's 1864 letter to Jacob Waltz? I'm able to read most, but not all, of the words. The words that I can't read I've indicated as (---). Also, when Don Peralta wrote "tordis," was he trying to write the English word "tortoise," instead of using the Spanish word "tortuga?"

    "... first go to tordis mountain, then south side go eastward until you find the first gorge on the south side from the west end follow the gorge until you find another trail which will lead you northwards over a lofty (ridge) then downwards past (---) needle to a long canyon and then (left) to a tributary canyon about 35-40 (---) from the end after you find the mine destroy (---)" ... 1864 Don Peralta

    I've included, below, Bicknell's wording from his newspaper article, which has similarities to the Peralta letter, but Bicknell's source was oral testimony from Julia Thomas, as I understand it from the historical records.

    "... The mine lies within an imaginary circle, whose diameter is not more than 5 miles, and whose center is marked by the Weaver's Needle, which is about 2,500 feet higher, among a confusion of lesser peaks and mountain masses of basaltic rock. The first gorge on the south side from the west end of the range. They found a monumental trail which lead them northward past Sombrero Butte into a long canyon. Travel northward in the gorge and up over a lofty ridge, thence downward past the Needle into a canyon running north, and finally into a tributary canyon, very steep and rocky, and densely wooded with a continuous thicket of scrub oak."

    And, what do most who are reading this post assume to be "the gorge" mentioned in Don Peralta's letter? I'm assuming that the Mexican miners would have chosen the easiest passage into the Superstitions. It would be an existing trail, monumented, not too steep for their horses, pack animals, and livestock, and preferably having a water source at, or very near, the trailhead.

    Click image for larger version. 

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  2. #2
    us
    Jul 2015
    Phx. A.Z.
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    All Types Of Treasure Hunting
    It's hidden needle. Some people think it's weavers needl and that peralta miss spelled it. What I did was put it on a copy machine set it to light copy took the light copy and made a lighter copy so on and so on. The dark blotches faded enough to read the words.adjust tit to what is needed.
    Idahodutch likes this.
    CHERISH EVERYTHING IN LIFE, IT ONLY HAPPENS ONCE.

  3. #3
    us
    Sep 2019
    Idaho
    Whites MXT
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    Cache Hunting
    Quote Originally Posted by nobodie View Post
    It's hidden needle. Some people think it's weavers needl and that peralta miss spelled it. What I did was put it on a copy machine set it to light copy took the light copy and made a lighter copy so on and so on. The dark blotches faded enough to read the words.adjust tit to what is needed.
    Nobodie,
    Further down, where it indicates a direction for the tributary canyon; For some reason, my memory is flashing EAST. I never had a copy of this letter, and I can't tell what written clear enough to tell.
    Are you able to see it on your copied, copied, copied version?

    Skyhawk,
    I noticed you had put that direction part in parenthesis. Would you be willing to elaborate just a bit on that?

    Thanks in advance
    Idaho Dutch

  4. #4
    us
    Jul 2015
    Phx. A.Z.
    553
    776 times
    All Types Of Treasure Hunting
    I don't know if I still have a light copy. Something happened to me a few years ago. A lot of stuff got destroyed. I'll look for one in the morning.
    Idahodutch likes this.
    CHERISH EVERYTHING IN LIFE, IT ONLY HAPPENS ONCE.

  5. #5
    us
    Sep 2019
    Idaho
    Whites MXT
    284
    391 times
    Cache Hunting
    Quote Originally Posted by nobodie View Post
    I don't know if I still have a light copy. Something happened to me a few years ago. A lot of stuff got destroyed. I'll look for one in the morning.
    LOL, Nobodie,
    no worries, for some reason, I thought you had just done it.
    So, while we are waiting to hear back from Skyhawk, do you recall reading what the direction the tributary canyon went off, from the Main N/S canyon?

    Idahodutch

  6. #6
    us
    Sep 2019
    Idaho
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    284
    391 times
    Cache Hunting
    Skyhawk,
    I keep meaning to give an actual response to your post.
    I agree with your assumption on the gorge.
    Idahodutch

  7. #7
    ca
    May 2007
    3,994
    5542 times
    All Types Of Treasure Hunting
    Dunno on this one. Doesn't look like a letter written by a middle to upper class Mexican at all. Especially back then.
    Or even how one translated by Waltz would look, IMO.
    Maybe Homar can give us an opinion ?
    Hell,you ain't never too old to look!

  8. #8
    gr
    Oct 2012
    White's Spectrum XLT
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    Quote Originally Posted by skyhawk1251 View Post
    Does anyone have the complete text of Don Peralta's 1864 letter to Jacob Waltz? I'm able to read most, but not all, of the words. The words that I can't read I've indicated as (---). Also, when Don Peralta wrote "tordis," was he trying to write the English word "tortoise," instead of using the Spanish word "tortuga?"

    "... first go to tordis mountain, then south side go eastward until you find the first gorge on the south side from the west end follow the gorge until you find another trail which will lead you northwards over a lofty (ridge) then downwards past (---) needle to a long canyon and then (left) to a tributary canyon about 35-40 (---) from the end after you find the mine destroy (---)" ... 1864 Don Peralta

    I've included, below, Bicknell's wording from his newspaper article, which has similarities to the Peralta letter, but Bicknell's source was oral testimony from Julia Thomas, as I understand it from the historical records.

    "... The mine lies within an imaginary circle, whose diameter is not more than 5 miles, and whose center is marked by the Weaver's Needle, which is about 2,500 feet higher, among a confusion of lesser peaks and mountain masses of basaltic rock. The first gorge on the south side from the west end of the range. They found a monumental trail which lead them northward past Sombrero Butte into a long canyon. Travel northward in the gorge and up over a lofty ridge, thence downward past the Needle into a canyon running north, and finally into a tributary canyon, very steep and rocky, and densely wooded with a continuous thicket of scrub oak."

    And, what do most who are reading this post assume to be "the gorge" mentioned in Don Peralta's letter? I'm assuming that the Mexican miners would have chosen the easiest passage into the Superstitions. It would be an existing trail, monumented, not too steep for their horses, pack animals, and livestock, and preferably having a water source at, or very near, the trailhead.

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	1864.jpg 
Views:	78 
Size:	161.6 KB 
ID:	1799422
    This paper note written with indications to a mine in the Superstitions is the " Ortiz letter " , written by Gonzalez to Mr. Barrigan who owned a store in Globe? and was used in Helen's Corbin book " Curse of the Duchman's gold ". You can find the story of this letter at the other bus station in the LDM topic at page #4, thread #4 .
    IMO, this description of a route to gold mine, is not for the LDM but for what we know as the Gonzalez-Haywood-Salazar survey-two soldiers-Joe Deering-etc. mine.
    The year Gonzalez wrote this letter was 1930 and was the second trip he did to Superstitions, the first time been 54 years before, but this time he had a map which was for the LDM, the known Perfil mapa.
    The first time Gonzalez came to Superstitions was in 1876 and entered the mountains from the north. That time was grubstaked by Charles Clark, a telegrapher at Maricopa Post. Gonzalez used the same practice like with Barrigan 54 years later, and allowed Clark to do a copy of his map, the known Gonzalez map with the line which connect the WN with FP.
    The last time, in 1930, Gonzales entered from the south, this time grubstaked by Barrigan in Globe. Seems that day was his last and hadn't the chance to get to the LDM, by taking the wrong canyon to WN and meeting an old LDM searcher in the upper Labarge canyon box. Later that year, his Perfil mapa was in possession of Adolph Ruth, and from now let your imagination to run wild.
    Last edited by markmar; Feb 09, 2020 at 09:06 AM.
    somehiker and Idahodutch like this.
    Marius

    If your true to your heart, you will never go wrong. The truth is the truth, no matter how you look at it, and in every treasure story and legend there is a grain of truth. It's up to your spirit and heart to know the difference. NP





  9. #9
    us
    Sep 2019
    Idaho
    Whites MXT
    284
    391 times
    Cache Hunting
    Quote Originally Posted by somehiker View Post
    Dunno on this one. Doesn't look like a letter written by a middle to upper class Mexican at all. Especially back then.
    Or even how one translated by Waltz would look, IMO.
    Maybe Homar can give us an opinion ?
    some hiker,
    As I looked at i was thinking the same thing. If from Peralta, sure doesn't look like something from someone of higher class and education.

  10. #10
    gr
    Oct 2012
    White's Spectrum XLT
    3,360
    5283 times
    All Types Of Treasure Hunting
    Quote Originally Posted by Idahodutch View Post
    some hiker,
    As I looked at i was thinking the same thing. If from Peralta, sure doesn't look like something from someone of higher class and education.
    IMO, this paper note is a copy of the original text, copy made maybe by an Anglo guy. The original text was written on the original map, like we can see in the photo of the original map posted by Jim Hatt.

    Click image for larger version. 

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ID:	1799655

    Also, the map published in Helen Corbin book, is turned once to the left and is a copy of the original Barrigan map. And also the Helen's book tell a different story about this map provenance, a story that shows how Bob Corbin received the already copies of the text and map, copies made by a person in Mesa who altered little the map's history.

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	CorbinOrtizMap.jpg 
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ID:	1799658
    Last edited by markmar; Feb 09, 2020 at 11:22 AM.
    Idahodutch likes this.
    Marius

    If your true to your heart, you will never go wrong. The truth is the truth, no matter how you look at it, and in every treasure story and legend there is a grain of truth. It's up to your spirit and heart to know the difference. NP





  11. #11
    um
    Nemo me impune lacesset

    Jan 2005
    DAKOTA TERRITORY
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    Ditto to what Somehiker posted. Provenance, provenance, provenance. What is the origin of this letter? Can it be shown to be genuine? Too many fakes in circulation today, we should be cautious about accepting maps, letters, waybills etc at face value.

    Idahodutch and KANACKI like this.
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  12. #12
    us
    Nov 2018
    Kingman, AZ
    49
    113 times
    Prospecting
    Quote Originally Posted by nobodie View Post
    It's hidden needle. Some people think it's weavers needl and that peralta miss spelled it. What I did was put it on a copy machine set it to light copy took the light copy and made a lighter copy so on and so on. The dark blotches faded enough to read the words.adjust tit to what is needed.
    Thanks for your reply. When I increase my screen brightness to maximum, and view Peralta's letter, I think I see "Agiters" needle. The "i, t" and "s" match those letters in other words, but the "r" is different, because the "s" follows it.

  13. #13
    us
    Nov 2018
    Kingman, AZ
    49
    113 times
    Prospecting
    Quote Originally Posted by Idahodutch View Post
    Nobodie,
    Further down, where it indicates a direction for the tributary canyon; For some reason, my memory is flashing EAST. I never had a copy of this letter, and I can't tell what written clear enough to tell.
    Are you able to see it on your copied, copied, copied version?

    Skyhawk,
    I noticed you had put that direction part in parenthesis. Would you be willing to elaborate just a bit on that?

    Thanks in advance
    Idaho Dutch
    "... first go to tordis mountain, then south side go eastward until you find the first gorge on the south side from the west end follow the gorge until you find another trail which will lead you northwards over a lofty (ridge) then downwards past (---) needle to a long canyon and then (left) to a tributary canyon about 35-40 (---) from the end after you find the mine destroy (---)" ... 1864 Don Peralta

    "... (left) to a tributary canyon ..." (left) was my best guess. A closer look says it is definitely not "left," since only compass directions are indicated elsewhere in the letter.
    Idahodutch likes this.

  14. #14
    us
    Nov 2018
    Kingman, AZ
    49
    113 times
    Prospecting
    Quote Originally Posted by markmar View Post
    This paper note written with indications to a mine in the Superstitions is the " Ortiz letter " , written by Gonzalez to Mr. Barrigan who owned a store in Globe? and was used in Helen's Corbin book " Curse of the Duchman's gold ". You can find the story of this letter at the other bus station in the LDM topic at page #4, thread #4 .
    IMO, this description of a route to gold mine, is not for the LDM but for what we know as the Gonzalez-Haywood-Salazar survey-two soldiers-Joe Deering-etc. mine.
    The year Gonzalez wrote this letter was 1930 and was the second trip he did to Superstitions, the first time been 54 years before, but this time he had a map which was for the LDM, the known Perfil mapa.
    The first time Gonzalez came to Superstitions was in 1876 and entered the mountains from the north. That time was grubstaked by Charles Clark, a telegrapher at Maricopa Post. Gonzalez used the same practice like with Barrigan 54 years later, and allowed Clark to do a copy of his map, the known Gonzalez map with the line which connect the WN with FP.
    The last time, in 1930, Gonzales entered from the south, this time grubstaked by Barrigan in Globe. Seems that day was his last and hadn't the chance to get to the LDM, by taking the wrong canyon to WN and meeting an old LDM searcher in the upper Labarge canyon box. Later that year, his Perfil mapa was in possession of Adolph Ruth, and from now let your imagination to run wild.
    Thanks very much for your reply. Yes, it's the so-called Ortiz Letter, found in Corbin's "The Curse of the Dutchman's Gold." Unfortunately, Mrs. Corbin didn't provide her best-guess as to the complete text of the letter, nor did she offer her opinion as to the authenticity of the letter. As for the wording of the letter, it is what I would expect from a man whose knowledge of the English language was limited, even for a man of higher social status.
    Idahodutch likes this.

  15. #15
    us
    Nov 2018
    Kingman, AZ
    49
    113 times
    Prospecting
    Quote Originally Posted by Idahodutch View Post
    Skyhawk,
    I keep meaning to give an actual response to your post.
    I agree with your assumption on the gorge.
    Idahodutch
    As far as "the gorge" and other details given in the Ortiz Letter and Bicknell's account, I have my own opinion about the route that is described in those two sources. It is a route leading to Marsh Valley. But I'll get to that in another post.
    alan m, markmar and Idahodutch like this.

 

 
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