Don Peralta's 1864 Letter to Jacob Waltz

[skyhawk1251]

Does anyone have the complete text of Don Peralta's 1864 letter to Jacob Waltz? I'm able to read most, but not all, of the words. The words that I can't read I've indicated as (---). Also, when Don Peralta wrote "tordis," was he trying to write the English word "tortoise," instead of using the Spanish word "tortuga?"

"... first go to tordis mountain, then south side go eastward until you find the first gorge on the south side from the west end follow the gorge until you find another trail which will lead you northwards over a lofty (ridge) then downwards past (---) needle to a long canyon and then (left) to a tributary canyon about 35-40 (---) from the end after you find the mine destroy (---)" ... 1864 Don Peralta

I've included, below, Bicknell's wording from his newspaper article, which has similarities to the Peralta letter, but Bicknell's source was oral testimony from Julia Thomas, as I understand it from the historical records.

"... The mine lies within an imaginary circle, whose diameter is not more than 5 miles, and whose center is marked by the Weaver's Needle, which is about 2,500 feet higher, among a confusion of lesser peaks and mountain masses of basaltic rock. The first gorge on the south side from the west end of the range. They found a monumental trail which lead them northward past Sombrero Butte into a long canyon. Travel northward in the gorge and up over a lofty ridge, thence downward past the Needle into a canyon running north, and finally into a tributary canyon, very steep and rocky, and densely wooded with a continuous thicket of scrub oak."

And, what do most who are reading this post assume to be "the gorge" mentioned in Don Peralta's letter? I'm assuming that the Mexican miners would have chosen the easiest passage into the Superstitions. It would be an existing trail, monumented, not too steep for their horses, pack animals, and livestock, and preferably having a water source at, or very near, the trailhead.

 

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[nobodie]

It's hidden needle. Some people think it's weavers needl and that peralta miss spelled it. What I did was put it on a copy machine set it to light copy took the light copy and made a lighter copy so on and so on. The dark blotches faded enough to read the words.adjust tit to what is needed.

 

[Idahodutch]

It's hidden needle. Some people think it's weavers needl and that peralta miss spelled it. What I did was put it on a copy machine set it to light copy took the light copy and made a lighter copy so on and so on. The dark blotches faded enough to read the words.adjust tit to what is needed.

Nobodie,
Further down, where it indicates a direction for the tributary canyon; For some reason, my memory is flashing EAST. I never had a copy of this letter, and I can't tell what written clear enough to tell.
Are you able to see it on your copied, copied, copied version?

Skyhawk,
I noticed you had put that direction part in parenthesis. Would you be willing to elaborate just a bit on that?

Thanks in advance
Idaho Dutch

 

[nobodie]

I don't know if I still have a light copy. Something happened to me a few years ago. A lot of stuff got destroyed. I'll look for one in the morning.

 

[Idahodutch]

I don't know if I still have a light copy. Something happened to me a few years ago. A lot of stuff got destroyed. I'll look for one in the morning.

LOL, Nobodie,
no worries, for some reason, I thought you had just done it.
So, while we are waiting to hear back from Skyhawk, do you recall reading what the direction the tributary canyon went off, from the Main N/S canyon?

Idahodutch

 

[Idahodutch]

Skyhawk,
I keep meaning to give an actual response to your post.
I agree with your assumption on the gorge.
Idahodutch

 

[somehiker]

Dunno on this one. Doesn't look like a letter written by a middle to upper class Mexican at all. Especially back then.
Or even how one translated by Waltz would look, IMO.
Maybe Homar can give us an opinion ?

 

[markmar]

Does anyone have the complete text of Don Peralta's 1864 letter to Jacob Waltz? I'm able to read most, but not all, of the words. The words that I can't read I've indicated as (---). Also, when Don Peralta wrote "tordis," was he trying to write the English word "tortoise," instead of using the Spanish word "tortuga?"

"... first go to tordis mountain, then south side go eastward until you find the first gorge on the south side from the west end follow the gorge until you find another trail which will lead you northwards over a lofty (ridge) then downwards past (---) needle to a long canyon and then (left) to a tributary canyon about 35-40 (---) from the end after you find the mine destroy (---)" ... 1864 Don Peralta

I've included, below, Bicknell's wording from his newspaper article, which has similarities to the Peralta letter, but Bicknell's source was oral testimony from Julia Thomas, as I understand it from the historical records.

"... The mine lies within an imaginary circle, whose diameter is not more than 5 miles, and whose center is marked by the Weaver's Needle, which is about 2,500 feet higher, among a confusion of lesser peaks and mountain masses of basaltic rock. The first gorge on the south side from the west end of the range. They found a monumental trail which lead them northward past Sombrero Butte into a long canyon. Travel northward in the gorge and up over a lofty ridge, thence downward past the Needle into a canyon running north, and finally into a tributary canyon, very steep and rocky, and densely wooded with a continuous thicket of scrub oak."

And, what do most who are reading this post assume to be "the gorge" mentioned in Don Peralta's letter? I'm assuming that the Mexican miners would have chosen the easiest passage into the Superstitions. It would be an existing trail, monumented, not too steep for their horses, pack animals, and livestock, and preferably having a water source at, or very near, the trailhead.

View attachment 1799422

This paper note written with indications to a mine in the Superstitions is the " Ortiz letter " , written by Gonzalez to Mr. Barrigan who owned a store in Globe? and was used in Helen's Corbin book " Curse of the Duchman's gold ". You can find the story of this letter at the other bus station in the LDM topic at page #4, thread #4 .
IMO, this description of a route to gold mine, is not for the LDM but for what we know as the Gonzalez-Haywood-Salazar survey-two soldiers-Joe Deering-etc. mine.
The year Gonzalez wrote this letter was 1930 and was the second trip he did to Superstitions, the first time been 54 years before, but this time he had a map which was for the LDM, the known Perfil mapa.
The first time Gonzalez came to Superstitions was in 1876 and entered the mountains from the north. That time was grubstaked by Charles Clark, a telegrapher at Maricopa Post. Gonzalez used the same practice like with Barrigan 54 years later, and allowed Clark to do a copy of his map, the known Gonzalez map with the line which connect the WN with FP.
The last time, in 1930, Gonzales entered from the south, this time grubstaked by Barrigan in Globe. Seems that day was his last and hadn't the chance to get to the LDM, by taking the wrong canyon to WN and meeting an old LDM searcher in the upper Labarge canyon box. Later that year, his Perfil mapa was in possession of Adolph Ruth, and from now let your imagination to run wild.

 

[Idahodutch]

Dunno on this one. Doesn't look like a letter written by a middle to upper class Mexican at all. Especially back then.
Or even how one translated by Waltz would look, IMO.
Maybe Homar can give us an opinion ?

some hiker,
As I looked at i was thinking the same thing. If from Peralta, sure doesn't look like something from someone of higher class and education.

 

[markmar]

some hiker,
As I looked at i was thinking the same thing. If from Peralta, sure doesn't look like something from someone of higher class and education.

IMO, this paper note is a copy of the original text, copy made maybe by an Anglo guy. The original text was written on the original map, like we can see in the photo of the original map posted by Jim Hatt.



Also, the map published in Helen Corbin book, is turned once to the left and is a copy of the original Barrigan map. And also the Helen's book tell a different story about this map provenance, a story that shows how Bob Corbin received the already copies of the text and map, copies made by a person in Mesa who altered little the map's history.

 

[Oroblanco]

Ditto to what Somehiker posted. Provenance, provenance, provenance. What is the origin of this letter? Can it be shown to be genuine? Too many fakes in circulation today, we should be cautious about accepting maps, letters, waybills etc at face value.

 

[skyhawk1251]

It's hidden needle. Some people think it's weavers needl and that peralta miss spelled it. What I did was put it on a copy machine set it to light copy took the light copy and made a lighter copy so on and so on. The dark blotches faded enough to read the words.adjust tit to what is needed.

Thanks for your reply. When I increase my screen brightness to maximum, and view Peralta's letter, I think I see "Agiters" needle. The "i, t" and "s" match those letters in other words, but the "r" is different, because the "s" follows it.

 

[skyhawk1251]

Nobodie,
Further down, where it indicates a direction for the tributary canyon; For some reason, my memory is flashing EAST. I never had a copy of this letter, and I can't tell what written clear enough to tell.
Are you able to see it on your copied, copied, copied version?

Skyhawk,
I noticed you had put that direction part in parenthesis. Would you be willing to elaborate just a bit on that?

Thanks in advance
Idaho Dutch

"... first go to tordis mountain, then south side go eastward until you find the first gorge on the south side from the west end follow the gorge until you find another trail which will lead you northwards over a lofty (ridge) then downwards past (---) needle to a long canyon and then (left) to a tributary canyon about 35-40 (---) from the end after you find the mine destroy (---)" ... 1864 Don Peralta

"... (left) to a tributary canyon ..." (left) was my best guess. A closer look says it is definitely not "left," since only compass directions are indicated elsewhere in the letter.

 

[skyhawk1251]

This paper note written with indications to a mine in the Superstitions is the " Ortiz letter " , written by Gonzalez to Mr. Barrigan who owned a store in Globe? and was used in Helen's Corbin book " Curse of the Duchman's gold ". You can find the story of this letter at the other bus station in the LDM topic at page #4, thread #4 .
IMO, this description of a route to gold mine, is not for the LDM but for what we know as the Gonzalez-Haywood-Salazar survey-two soldiers-Joe Deering-etc. mine.
The year Gonzalez wrote this letter was 1930 and was the second trip he did to Superstitions, the first time been 54 years before, but this time he had a map which was for the LDM, the known Perfil mapa.
The first time Gonzalez came to Superstitions was in 1876 and entered the mountains from the north. That time was grubstaked by Charles Clark, a telegrapher at Maricopa Post. Gonzalez used the same practice like with Barrigan 54 years later, and allowed Clark to do a copy of his map, the known Gonzalez map with the line which connect the WN with FP.
The last time, in 1930, Gonzales entered from the south, this time grubstaked by Barrigan in Globe. Seems that day was his last and hadn't the chance to get to the LDM, by taking the wrong canyon to WN and meeting an old LDM searcher in the upper Labarge canyon box. Later that year, his Perfil mapa was in possession of Adolph Ruth, and from now let your imagination to run wild.

Thanks very much for your reply. Yes, it's the so-called Ortiz Letter, found in Corbin's "The Curse of the Dutchman's Gold." Unfortunately, Mrs. Corbin didn't provide her best-guess as to the complete text of the letter, nor did she offer her opinion as to the authenticity of the letter. As for the wording of the letter, it is what I would expect from a man whose knowledge of the English language was limited, even for a man of higher social status.

 

[skyhawk1251]

Skyhawk,
I keep meaning to give an actual response to your post.
I agree with your assumption on the gorge.
Idahodutch

As far as "the gorge" and other details given in the Ortiz Letter and Bicknell's account, I have my own opinion about the route that is described in those two sources. It is a route leading to Marsh Valley. But I'll get to that in another post.

 

[Idahodutch]

"... first go to tordis mountain, then south side go eastward until you find the first gorge on the south side from the west end follow the gorge until you find another trail which will lead you northwards over a lofty (ridge) then downwards past (---) needle to a long canyon and then (left) to a tributary canyon about 35-40 (---) from the end after you find the mine destroy (---)" ... 1864 Don Peralta

"... (left) to a tributary canyon ..." (left) was my best guess. A closer look says it is definitely not "left," since only compass directions are indicated elsewhere in the letter.

Skyhawk,
That makes sense. So either East or West, but either way, it would be a tributary canyon feeding into the main North running canyon. I figured the path to be down past west side of Weavers Needle, then down East Boulder, then turn East into Needle canyon tributary. That path takes you to just South of Marsh Valley. If Needle canyon is the main North canyon, there is no tributary that would take you closer to Marsh Valler, East or West. I never felt like West Boulder was the Trail, because it really doesn't go North directly from Weavers Needle. Yeah, you eventually would end up going North, . . . Just a feeling.
Idahodutch

 

[markmar]

As far as "the gorge" and other details given in the Ortiz Letter and Bicknell's account, I have my own opinion about the route that is described in those two sources. It is a route leading to Marsh Valley. But I'll get to that in another post.

Could be a good guess, but from there what? Don't forget William Edwards was there few years after the massacre, found many clues of a mining camp, mining equipment and an arrastra, but never the mine itself. His son continued the research many years after also without finding the mine.
Many known LDM hunters had camped at and researched the Marsh Valley inside-out so to speak, without finding the mine, but of course this doesn't means anybody else would not be able to find it. Like Not Peralta wrote about his gold mine in the Superstitions:
"... the area I talk about was searched by the best for a long time, some claiming one thing then another,the location was very tricky,but,findable . I have looked at its location many times on Google, can you triangulate this, that's why I thought you may enjoy this Marius.np "

 

[Idahodutch]

Could be a good guess, but from there what? Don't forget William Edwards was there few years after the massacre, found many clues of a mining camp, mining equipment and an arrastra, but never the mine itself. His son continued the research many years after also without finding the mine.
Many known LDM hunters had camped at and researched the Marsh Valley inside-out so to speak, without finding the mine, but of course this doesn't means anybody else would not be able to find it. Like Not Peralta wrote about his gold mine in the Superstitions:
"... the area I talk about was searched by the best for a long time, some claiming one thing then another,the location was very tricky,but,findable . I have looked at its location many times on Google, can you triangulate this, that's why I thought you may enjoy this Marius.np "

Markmar,
I would agree, Marsh Valley would be a destination for its resources to set up a camp. At that time, water year round, room for animals, grazing, but more for a large party.
I think the Bicknell directions and this letter that's almost the same, are not for Marsh valley, but supposedly to the LDM.
Idahodutch

 

[coazon de oro]

Howdy Wayne,

A mess load of maps were turning up at that time. In my honest opinion some were made to try and sell them, while others were made to obtain a grubstake. A prospector could do a lot of prospecting on someone else's dime with a fake map.

The letter that Skyhawk posted, is a copy made by Gonzalez. Barrigan kept the so called original that Gonzalez had, which had the letter, and map on the same page. But even that one is thought to be a copy.

The Ortiz letter in my honest opinion was inspired by the story of Waltz helping out Don Peralta in a bar fight in Mexico. I don't believe this ever happened. Waltz may have made that story up to justify his ownership of his mine, and to ease his conscience. In his death bed he confessed that he had killed three Mexicans to take the mine. He even relived all the details of how he went about it. In another of his fake stories, he said shot some Mexicans thinking they were Indians, trying to ease his guilty conscience.

In my honest opinion neither the letter, or the map lead anywhere, much less the LDM.

Homar

 

[skyhawk1251]

Markmar,
I would agree, Marsh Valley would be a destination for its resources to set up a camp. At that time, water year round, room for animals, grazing, but more for a large party.
I think the Bicknell directions and this letter that's almost the same, are not for Marsh valley, but supposedly to the LDM.
Idahodutch

I see Marsh Valley as the best location for a base camp that could satisfy the needs of a large group of miners and their livestock. From the base camp, workers could fan-out to specific mine sites. There also seems to be ample historical evidence of activity by Mexican miners above Marsh Valley on Peters Mesa. All that mining activity points to some rich mines nearby that warranted the ever-present risk of death from natural causes and Indian attacks. I agree, though, that the Ortiz Letter and Bicknell's newspaper article don't give sufficient information to find any mine, including from Marsh Valley as a starting point.