Ville de Lyon, Harve France to New York City

[Matthew Roberts]

PotBellyJim,

Jacob Waltz merely signed his name to the receipt. The receipt was written out for Waltz to sign by Henry Slosser the executor of Ferdinand Magdebergs estate.

Best,

Matthew

 

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[PotBelly Jim]

PotBellyJim,

Jacob Waltz merely signed his name to the receipt. The receipt was written out for Waltz to sign by Henry Slosser the executor of Ferdinand Magdebergs estate.

Best,

Matthew

I disagree. Take another look at the signature on the receipt in my post #34. Slosser wrote the text of the receipt. Under the text, Waltz wrote "Received thirty five Sacks." right over his signature. It's obvious that the handwriting is different than Slosser's, and written with the same pen or pencil that Waltz signed with. The handwriting is also in the same script used for Waltz's signature, and is obviously different script than Slosser's, which is quite unique.

At any rate, I found Waltz's handwriting a bit easier to read than Slosser's. EDIT: Been meaning to ask you: You've stated that Don Varden disregarded the Ville de Lyon Waltz, and it sounds like it was because he was easily traceable in New York or thereabouts. I've also seen that Jerry Hamrick stated he knew for sure that the Ville de Lyon Waltz was the Dutchman, and he had found where he lived in PA...and also documents in Mississippi that stated the Jacob Waltz who applied for citizenship there in 1848 was born on 02 November 1810, the same date as Abstatt Waltz. Any thoughts? I'm not a genealogy guy nor am I all that much interested in which Waltz was which but I would be interested in your thoughts on the matter. Thanks, Jim

 

[PotBelly Jim]

Magdeburg Estate

Not to derail from the subject, but it occurred to me that not everyone may know what the Magdeburg Receipts are. To be brief, when Ferdinand Magdeburg died in PHX, he willed his estate to Waltz. It was fairly sizeable. I went through the file, which is quite extensive, and put together a PDF for everyone with the pertinent parts of the will and the receipts. There were a total of 7 receipts that I could find where Jacob Waltz, the Dutchman, signed for goods from the executor.

Sorry the PDF is a little choppy, I'm a bit pressed for time. If anyone has any questions or would like the full text of the will, ect, PM me.

View attachment Waltz Magdeburg Will and Receipts.pdf

 

[Matthew Roberts]

I disagree. Take another look at the signature on the receipt in my post #34. Slosser wrote the text of the receipt. Under the text, Waltz wrote "Received thirty five Sacks." right over his signature. It's obvious that the handwriting is different than Slosser's, and written with the same pen or pencil that Waltz signed with. The handwriting is also in the same script used for Waltz's signature, and is obviously different script than Slosser's, which is quite unique.

At any rate, I found Waltz's handwriting a bit easier to read than Slosser's. EDIT: Been meaning to ask you: You've stated that Don Varden disregarded the Ville de Lyon Waltz, and it sounds like it was because he was easily traceable in New York or thereabouts. I've also seen that Jerry Hamrick stated he knew for sure that the Ville de Lyon Waltz was the Dutchman, and he had found where he lived in PA...and also documents in Mississippi that stated the Jacob Waltz who applied for citizenship there in 1848 was born on 02 November 1810, the same date as Abstatt Waltz. Any thoughts? I'm not a genealogy guy nor am I all that much interested in which Waltz was which but I would be interested in your thoughts on the matter. Thanks, Jim

PotBelly Jim,

Yes I agree Waltz may have written the, received thirty five sacks, but the only thing we can be 100% sure of is his signature.

Jerry said many things over the years changing his opinion as more information became available. You would have to define the exact time period when he said a specific thing.

Jerry has also claimed to have documents for things pertaining to Waltz and how they fit with persons believed to be the Dutchman however these documents have been either lost or destroyed.

Jerry's opinion on these matters is no better or no worse than yours or mine or anyone else's.

Best,

Matthew

 

[PotBelly Jim]

PotBelly Jim,

Yes I agree Waltz may have written the, received thirty five sacks, but the only thing we can be 100% sure of is his signature.

Jerry said many things over the years changing his opinion as more information became available. You would have to define the exact time period when he said a specific thing.

Jerry has also claimed to have documents for things pertaining to Waltz and how they fit with persons believed to be the Dutchman however these documents have been either lost or destroyed.

Jerry's opinion on these matters is no better or no worse than yours or mine or anyone else's.

Best,

Matthew

Thanks Matthew. Good point that we can't know for sure about Waltz's handwriting. A little background on that, I'm no expert on handwriting analysis, but have been to 2 schools I can remember off the top of my head where it was a topic, as it was something I worked with. We usually had actual experts on-hand to do the analysis so it wasn't something I ever did myself. So I'm assuming based on what I have learned over the years, that the receipt in my post #34 contains Waltz's handwriting. That and five bucks will get me a starbucks.

There was another receipt in the bunch that also appeared to me to have Waltz's handwriting, but I'm not as sure about that one. I'm wondering if it's worth reaching out to a few old colleagues to get their input on it...at least they are people who do handwriting analysis for a living.

Back to the thread topic, do you have a candidate other than Abstatt Waltz, or Ville de Lyon Waltz?

 

[Matthew Roberts]

If you're thinking about having the Phoenix Jacob Waltz and the Abstatt Jakob Walz signatures analysed its already been done. There are numerous handwriting experts in Phoenix that review signatures and documents for court cases.
I can tell you exactly the cost involved if you have a professional examine the hand writings. Its around $200 for a verbal analysis and an email with the results or about $400 for a formal QDE written report.
Of course if you have a FRIEND do it the results will be pretty much along the lines of how good of friends you are.
The correct way is to furnish the signatures or documents without any explanation whatsoever and an expert who has no knowledge who the examination is being done for.

Yes I have a good candidate for Jacob Waltz but this man did not arrive in America until 1846.
This man could only be the Dutchman if the 1839 arrival date (Natchez, Mississippi citizenship) for Jacob Waltz is wrong.
By wrong I mean Waltz lied about his arrival date in the US to get citizenship. At the time I believe he had to have been in America 9 years with one of those years in Mississippi.

There probably is no record of the Dutchman coming to America on a passenger list because he probably (my opinion) ducked under the Steerage Act and traveled with other poor immigrants when the captain overbooked the legal limit of passengers. This was a common practice leading to the Steerage Act. Ship owners could make more money this way, in some cases a LOT more money. These Steerage passengers were never recorded on the passenger lists.
Many Germans paid no passage fee to the ship owners, they crossed as redemptioners and worked off their passage as indentured servants to the captain or ship owners. This would be many times more than a simple passage fee.
New Orleans was the Port for these redemptioners and the Germans would work off their debt on farms in Louisiana, Mississippi and Missouri.

Dutchman Waltz probably had no way to prove when he entered America so he dropped the application in Natchez and later went for it in California in 61 after he could prove he had been in America for more than 5-10 years.

Best,

Matthew

 

[Matthew Roberts]

PotBelly Jim,

I have often wondered if Ferdinand Magdeberg wasn't the nephew of Waltz.
Waltz was some 17 years older than Magdeberg and Magdeberg was living on the south part of Andrew Starrar's farm just across Henshaw Road from Waltz's home. Magdeberg had been farming on Starrar's 1/4 section.
Why did Magdeberg leave Waltz as the sole heir of his estate ? Just the water rights Magdeberg left Waltz was worth a tidy sum.
Henry Slosser was the executor of Magdeberg's estate and he was married to Elvira Tewksbury who was related to Lydia Tewksbury who was first married to David Schultes.
David Schultes was the man who originally settled on Waltz's 1/4 section and Waltz and Schultes lived there together for a short time.
There's a connection there somehow I've never been able to sort out.
Magdeberg was first buried in the old Phoenix city cemetery then moved to the "pioneer" cemetery in 1884. J Hoddett a Phoenix undertaker made arrangements and Slosser, a Tewksbury, J Starrar and several other names unreadable attended the re-burial.
I've never been able to understand why Waltz was the sole heir to that estate.

 

[Matthew Roberts]

Jacob Waltz signature on his July 1861 Los Angeles citizenship application.

 

[Oroblanco]

Jacob Waltz signature on his July 1861 Los Angeles citizenship application.

View attachment 1807339

This is the one I referred to a while ago, that I fear we cannot be certain is THE Jacob Waltz. In support of this doubt, we should note that when THE Jacob Waltz of Phoenix registered to vote in 1890, he listed the date and place of his naturalization (citizenship) as July 19th, 1881 in Phoenix AZ at the 2nd Judicial District. He is also listed as having sworn to this statement. I would think that you would probably remember the date of your obtaining citizenship. He did not list his naturalization as occurring in California or New Orleans for that matter.

Here is the voter registration I am referring to:
View attachment Voter registration.jpg

The trouble is that there are other men named Jacob Waltz, scattered across the country, including one Jacob Waltz of California whom was a farmer and was still living there when THE Jacob Waltz died in 1891.

Please do continue, this won't help anyone find the lost Dutchman's gold mine of course but it is fascinating!

 

[Matthew Roberts]

Oroblanco,

I agree with what you are saying. The Jacob Waltz 1890 voter registration record cannot be dismissed out of hand.
The registration raises some big concerns over the earlier Natchez and Los Angeles citizenship applications.
It also closes the door on Abstatt Waltz being the "Dutchman".

Best,

Matthew

 

[Matthew Roberts]

Oroblanco,

To further what you have said consider the 1864 Arizona Territory census taken at Ft. Whipple (Prescott) on which Jacob Waltz is counted.

Waltz is on page A037 and is number 1008.
Age: 54
Single
Where Born: Germany
How long resident (Az): 2 years
If Not a Native when Naturalized: Not
If Not Naturalized and Claims to be a Citizen, by What Right: Blank
Occupation: Miner
Real Estate: Blank
Personal ($): Blank
Remarks: Blank

Waltz answered he was NOT naturalized on this 1864 census. Even though it is commonly believed he applied for citizenship at Natchez in 1848 and received citizenship at Los Angeles in 1861.
The only conclusion one can come to is the Dutchman Waltz was not the Waltz at Natchez and Los Angeles.

Here is that 1864 AZ Territory census. I cannot make it any larger.

View attachment Waltz Ariz census 1864 Ft. Whipple.jpg

 

[Matthew Roberts]

Here is Jacob Waltz's signature on a petition requesting the Government help protect citizens from Indian depredations circa 1863.

 

[Gregory E. Davis]

Good morning Mathew: I have to disagree with you on this point. The notation is not "NOT" but "NAT" indicating he was naturalized. Remember when this census was taken it was done in the outback of the Prescott Area and many times it was someone else who listed others in their camp when they was not in camp when the census taker came around. I suspect that the census taker was not anxious to stay around Indian Country as lone as he had to and was glad to have someone else list another's name if they were not present. Cordially, Gregory E. Davis

 

[Idahodutch]

Here is Jacob Waltz's signature on a petition requesting the Government help protect citizens from Indian depredations circa 1863.

View attachment 1807610

Is it just me, or does the LA citizenship signature, and this one look like maybe same person? Just talking about signatures.
Idahodutch

 

[PotBelly Jim]

Second Greg, I also believe it says "Nat" for naturalized vs. "Not". Clearly an "A" vice an "O" just comparing the letters to others on the document.

Idaho, I will also second your opinion on the Waltz signatures. Seems most of them are very similar.

 

[PotBelly Jim]

This is the one I referred to a while ago, that I fear we cannot be certain is THE Jacob Waltz. In support of this doubt, we should note that when THE Jacob Waltz of Phoenix registered to vote in 1890, he listed the date and place of his naturalization (citizenship) as July 19th, 1881 in Phoenix AZ at the 2nd Judicial District. He is also listed as having sworn to this statement. I would think that you would probably remember the date of your obtaining citizenship. He did not list his naturalization as occurring in California or New Orleans for that matter.

Here is the voter registration I am referring to:
View attachment 1807464

The trouble is that there are other men named Jacob Waltz, scattered across the country, including one Jacob Waltz of California whom was a farmer and was still living there when THE Jacob Waltz died in 1891.

Please do continue, this won't help anyone find the lost Dutchman's gold mine of course but it is fascinating!

Roy, I'm not much for digging through all the Jacob Waltz's, but I've taken a stab at it and there's just too many of them for me. I'll leave the sorting for someone who is interested and qualified

One thing I would like to point out on the naturalization date in the Great Register: It was transcribed after the fact, and there's the possibility that the data got mixed up in the transcription process. Not saying it happened that way, but I've found that transcribed records often differ from originals. That being said, it's another one of those intriguing things...great find, and thanks for posting it.

 

[Idahodutch]

Roy, I'm not much for digging through all the Jacob Waltz's, but I've taken a stab at it and there's just too many of them for me. I'll leave the sorting for someone who is interested and qualified

One thing I would like to point out on the naturalization date in the Great Register: It was transcribed after the fact, and there's the possibility that the data got mixed up in the transcription process. Not saying it happened that way, but I've found that transcribed records often differ from originals. That being said, it's another one of those intriguing things...great find, and thanks for posting it.

Jim,
I'm there with you. . . In the movie "The Hobbit", the scene where Gollum is trying to think of the answer to a riddle, his face all twisted up as he is thinking. . . that kind of what this is like

Edit: I thought you did a fine job, Matthew too. Interesting thread, but my mind kind of started to glaze trying to catch up.
+ Oro, Mr. Davis & Loke . . . This has been a good thread. Thanks for making it happen.

 

[PotBelly Jim]

Roy's post on the Great Register got me thinking so I went and took a peek at them. I thought the date looked familiar, then it all made sense once I took a closer look:

MARICOPA COUNTY GREAT REGISTER ENTRIES FOR WALTZ:

In 1876, Waltz's naturalization date was 19 July 1861 in Los Angeles, County Court
In 1882, same
In 1884, same
In 1886, the date was 19 July 1861 but location was listed as Phoenix, vice Los Angeles
In 1890, the date was 19 July 1881, location still Phoenix.

So the day of naturalization was always 19 July. As the years went by, errors were introduced in the transcribing until we have 19 July 1881, location Phoenix in the 1890 Great Register.

I think this solves the issue and we can say with certainty that Jacob Waltz the Dutchman really was naturalized on 19 July 1861 in Los Angeles. Copy of the 1876 Great Register with the original information:

View attachment Waltz Vote Reg.jpg

So I guess this means the door is NOT closed on Abstatt Waltz?

 

[Oroblanco]

Not to pick a bone with anyone there over Abstaat Waltz being THE Jacob Waltz, however in addition to the 1890 entry we also have the 1864 territorial census, Waltz states his residency is 2 years. Now it is possible that he meant two years in Arizona territory, but it is equally possible to have meant two years in the USA. I have looked at that "N?t" entry and it looks like NOT to me. This would be an important point for counting citizens when a census is supposed to count all persons whether citizens or not, to denote the citizens.

Anyway it might be fruitful for some expert in genealogical research to look for a Jacob Waltz arriving perhaps in 1861-2?

Please do continue,

 

[PotBelly Jim]

Roy, no offense taken here nor do I take your opinions as bone-pickin’, Amigo. I have no idea which Waltz is which nor do I have a preference for one or the other. But just off the top of my head, here’s what I see:

The Waltz on the Ville de Lyon was listed as being 20 on the transcribed passenger list. But when we look at the original passenger list he’s 28. Which fits with Dutch Jake’s known age.

Then it’s argued that Abstatt Waltz can’t be the Dutchman because his middle initial is F, not W. Well, it turns out the “W” comes from a “J.W. Walls”, and he’s 10 years too old to be the Dutchman.

Then it’s argued that Abstatt Waltz can’t be the Dutchman because his name was Jakob, but his birth records show it’s spelled Jacob.

Now let’s look at just a few things that fit:

Dutchman born 1810 in Wurttemburg. So was Abstatt Waltz. Dutchman had a sister whose son went missing in America. So did Abstatt Waltz. Based on Natchez citizenship application, Dutchman emigrated here in 1839. So did Abstatt Waltz. Dutchman applied for citizenship in Natchez in 1848. Abstatt Waltz is known to be living just down river in New Orleans in 1844. Dutchman went to CA in 1850’s. So did Abstatt Waltz. Dutchman said to have university education. So did Abstatt Waltz. Dutchman said to have helped Julia with finances. Abstatt Waltz had schooling in economics.

That's just scratching the surface of what we kicked around in this thread.

What Mathew and Homar are calling a “Force Fit” is starting to look a little like a “Slip Fit” to me. After 4 pages of discussion I've seen no real evidence given that Abstatt Waltz can't be the Dutchman. That's all I'm saying.