Ville de Lyon, Harve France to New York City

[Matthew Roberts]

Is the Jacob Waltz listed on the Ville de Lyon the Jacob Waltz of the Lost Dutchman Mine legend ?

 

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[393stroker]

Could be: https://www.immigrantships.net/v12/surnamesv12/splw_v12.htm

 

[Idahodutch]

Is the Jacob Waltz listed on the Ville de Lyon the Jacob Waltz of the Lost Dutchman Mine legend ?

Matthew,
I don't think that it is conclusive, but it looks like the trip from Germany to New Orleans may not have happened as believed by some.
It appears that the voyage timelines do not work. (As in it seems "The Olbers" was elsewhere at that time and was not in New Orleans).

My take, would be that the chances are looking favorable that the Jacob Waltz on the Ville de Lyon is our guy, but not 100% at this time.
I haven't finished reading Glovers, so maybe there's a twist coming up yet.

If there was some new information about the New Orleans Waltz and company, (maybe different ship. . . ) that would be interesting as the description of the people in that group sure seem to fit the bill.
IMHO - the New Orleans version was manufactured, or records showing where the Olbers was and wasn't, were. The likelihood between which of the two, looks like a pretty big gap though.
Idaho Dutch

 

[Matthew Roberts]

The Jacob Waltz of the Lost Dutchman goldmine legend was born in 1810 according to Arizona Territory and Phoenix census information.

The Jacob Waltz on the ship "Ville de Lyon" was recorded as 20 years old on that voyage of July 13, 1839. That would make his birth year 1819.

 

[Idahodutch]

The Jacob Waltz of the Lost Dutchman goldmine legend was born in 1810 according to Arizona Territory and Phoenix census information.

The Jacob Waltz on the ship "Ville de Lyon" was recorded as 20 years old on that voyage of July 13, 1839. That would make his birth year 1819.

I'll look again, but was remembering the age listed as "28" years old on that voyage, and in July, that seems to fit? The Waltz on the "Ville de Lyon" would have been born in 1810.

 

[Matthew Roberts]

I'll look again, but was remembering the age listed as "28" years old on that voyage, and in July, that seems to fit? The Waltz on the "Ville de Lyon" would have been born in 1810.

Idahodutch,

The Jacob Waltz listed as a passenger on the Ville de Lyon arriving New York City on July 13, 1839 is recorded on the ships passenger list as being 20 years old, not 28 years old.

That would make the Ville de Lyon Jacob Waltz having been born in 1819.

The Jacob Waltz of Phoenix Arizona was born in 1810 according to Arizona and Phoenix census information.

 

[Idahodutch]

Matthew,
It definitely says he was 28 years old on the "Ville de Lyon", and that was in July.
I saw something that you had put together a while back called "The Life of Jacob Waltz", and the census months seemed to be mostly in September or October with the earliest month listed was August.
I don't recall the day/month that our LDM Waltz was born?
That would be useful information right about now. . . .
Idaho Dutch

 

[Matthew Roberts]

Matthew,
It definitely says he was 28 years old on the "Ville de Lyon", and that was in July.
I saw something that you had put together a while back called "The Life of Jacob Waltz", and the census months seemed to be mostly in September or October with the earliest month listed was August.
I don't recall the day/month that our LDM Waltz was born?
That would be useful information right about now. . . .
Idaho Dutch

Idahodutch,

I believe you are mistaken. The Ville de Lyon passenger list has Jacob Waltz listed as passenger number 308, 20 years old from Wirtemberg.

Are you going by the passenger list or someone else quoting the passenger list.?

 

[Idahodutch]

Matthew,
We both were posting near same time, I looked again, very close. There is no doubt, that the caption under the picture of the passenger list says "28" years of age.
Now I am looking at the passenger list, and it shows . . . . it is somewhat unclear to me. It is either a small zero with additional markings that could have been intended as the completion of the 8?
This may be something that Mr. Glover has already looked at and was able to say with such certainty that is says "28".
It would be a fairly big blunder . . . . if were me, and I was writing a book, I would want to make sure on something like that.

 

[Matthew Roberts]

Matthew,
We both were posting near same time, I looked again, very close. There is no doubt, that the caption under the picture of the passenger list says "28" years of age.
Now I am looking at the passenger list, and it shows . . . . it is somewhat unclear to me. It is either a small zero with additional markings that could have been intended as the completion of the 8?
This may be something that Mr. Glover has already looked at and was able to say with such certainty that is says "28".
It would be a fairly big blunder . . . . if were me, and I was writing a book, I would want to make sure on something like that.

Idahodutch,

If you are going by the Glover book there is definitely a problem.

When the Ville de Lyon passenger list was transcribed the transcriber noted 24 separate instances in which she could not clearly identify a name or a letter or a number.
All 24 of those instances are listed along with the transcript. There was no discrepancy with passenger #308 Jacob Waltz age 20 from Wirtemberg. Had there been a question with passenger #308 the transcriber would have listed it along with the 24.
I have seen both the typed transcript and the original hand written passenger list and both show the passenger as 20 years old.

 

[Idahodutch]

I just looked at the link within the link of the "Typed" out list. (posted just above by 393stroker)
It definitely shows the age at 20.

When looking at the picture of the actual hand written passenger list, in Glover's book, the markings are faint, but to me . . . it looks like an 8. . . if was supposed to be a 0, why is it so small and why does it have faint markings on the top half that look like an 8
It is a very interesting point, especially because the backstory provided for the "Ville de Lyon Waltz" fits amazingly to our LDM Waltz.

I think it is entirely possible for the typed transcript of the hand written passenger list to have errors. Ones thought to be transcribed correctly.
Actually, unless there were teams of transcribers working together, discussing and hashing out anything that wasn't 100% unanimous. There are almost certainly errors beyond the 24, that were just missed.
I just don't think the resources that would have been needed to ensure 100% accuracy, was allocated to how these were done.

For me, just because the transcriber did not list issue with #308, does not prove much. I would have listed it if it were me. But perhaps the list would be way too long if they were going for 100% accuracy.
All I can say, is that it is not conclusive, just because someone typed it. History is full of mistakes. . . . or so I hear

Idaho Dutch

(edit: The way the hand written looks, you can almost see it happen; Waltz said 28 and the guy writing, his pen was too dry while writing and when he wrote the 8 it was too light, especially on the bottom, so he did a fresh dip and made another little zero on the bottom part).
That is what it looks like to me, but maybe I am just fishing.

 

[Idahodutch]

Matthew,
It definitely says he was 28 years old on the "Ville de Lyon", and that was in July.
I saw something that you had put together a while back called "The Life of Jacob Waltz", and the census months seemed to be mostly in September or October with the earliest month listed was August.
I don't recall the day/month that our LDM Waltz was born?
That would be useful information right about now. . . .
Idaho Dutch

Matthew,
So when looking at the different census figures that you include in your writing, they all put his birth year as 1810 (by doing the math), but only if he was born sometime in August or earlier.
If he was born in November, then the age given in many of the census figures do not match. (Perhaps a problem for the Ville de Lyon Waltz vs census data).

My question is do we really know what month (Our LDM) Waltz was born, or better yet, actual DOB?
Sincerely,
Idaho Dutch

 

[azdave35]

Matthew,
So when looking at the different census figures that you include in your writing, they all put his birth year as 1810 (by doing the math), but only if he was born sometime in August or earlier.
If he was born in November, then the age given in many of the census figures do not match. (Perhaps a problem for the Ville de Lyon Waltz vs census data).

My question is do we really know what month (Our LDM) Waltz was born, or better yet, actual DOB?
Sincerely,
Idaho Dutch

april 1st 1810

 

[Matthew Roberts]

Idahodutch,

There is no question the Jacob Waltz on the Ville de Lyon passenger list was 20 years old , not 28.

Many years back Don Vardon came forward with the Ville de Lyon passenger list as a possible candidate for the Lost Dutchman Mine's Jacob Waltz. Several discrepancies with who Jacob Waltz was commonly believed to be were noted but because the passenger list had not yet been transcribed it was a wait and see issue.

In May 2010 the Ville de Lyon passenger list was transcribed by the International Ship Transcribers Guild (ISTG).

These are professionals with a team of experts with the latest technology behind them. Not one but three experts are involved in every transcribe. The one who does the initial transcribe and two others who review the transcribe for any discrepancies or mistakes the originator might have missed. Not until all three experts agree on the accuracy of the transcript is it released to the public. All three experts came to the unanimous conclusion that #308 on the Ville de Lyon passenger list was Jacob Waltz, age 20 of Wirtemberg.

The Jacob Waltz on the Ville de Lyon passenger list can be traced and he did not travel much farther than New York after his arrival in America.

 

[Idahodutch]

Idahodutch,

There is no question the Jacob Waltz on the Ville de Lyon passenger list was 20 years old , not 28.

Many years back Don Vardon came forward with the Ville de Lyon passenger list as a possible candidate for the Lost Dutchman Mine's Jacob Waltz. Several discrepancies with who Jacob Waltz was commonly believed to be were noted but because the passenger list had not yet been transcribed it was a wait and see issue.

In May 2010 the Ville de Lyon passenger list was transcribed by the International Ship Transcribers Guild (ISTG).

These are professionals with a team of experts with the latest technology behind them. Not one but three experts are involved in every transcribe. The one who does the initial transcribe and two others who review the transcribe for any discrepancies or mistakes the originator might have missed. Not until all three experts agree on the accuracy of the transcript is it released to the public. All three experts came to the unanimous conclusion that #308 on the Ville de Lyon passenger list was Jacob Waltz, age 20 of Wirtemberg.

The Jacob Waltz on the Ville de Lyon passenger list can be traced and he did not travel much farther than New York after his arrival in America.

Matthew,
Thank you for sharing. I hope you don't mind my asking a couple of questions;
- Was the Ville de Lyon passenger list transcribed in 2010, because of Jacob Waltz?
- Were these 3 experts, the ones who made the list of 24 passenger entries that had questionable accuracy?
- Was there more than one transcription of this passenger list?

Dave,
For real on the date? or is that like "April Fools"?

Idaho Dutch

 

[azdave35]

Matthew,
Thank you for sharing. I hope you don't mind my asking a couple of questions;
- Was the Ville de Lyon passenger list transcribed in 2010, because of Jacob Waltz?
- Were these 3 experts, the ones who made the list of 24 passenger entries that had questionable accuracy?
- Was there more than one transcription of this passenger list?

Dave,
For real on the date? or is that like "April Fools"?

Idaho Dutch

 

[Matthew Roberts]

Matthew,
Thank you for sharing. I hope you don't mind my asking a couple of questions;
- Was the Ville de Lyon passenger list transcribed in 2010, because of Jacob Waltz?
- Were these 3 experts, the ones who made the list of 24 passenger entries that had questionable accuracy?
- Was there more than one transcription of this passenger list?

Dave,
For real on the date? or is that like "April Fools"?

Idaho Dutch

Idahodutch,

No the Ville de Lyon passenger list was NOT transcribed because of Jacob Waltz, Waltz was totally unknown to the transcribers. The Ville de Lyon was transcribed in the order it came up to be transcribed.

Yes, all three transcribers reviewed the passenger list and agreed that there were a total of 24 discrepancies in name, number and letter which could not be accurately deciphered.

The ISTG transcribe is the only known transcription of the Ville de Lyon.

I was furnished a copy of the July 13, 1839 handwritten Ville de Lyon passenger list by the ISTG along with a detailed explanation of how the names, letters and numbers on that transcript were determined.

 

[Idahodutch]

Matthew,
Thank you for letting me know.
So then getting back to your original question for this thread; It doesn't look like he is old enough to be the LDM Waltz.
Now a different question, Where did the Waltz from Abstatt go? Is he the LDM Waltz, but just didn't come over on the Ville de Lyon? But he was born in November and the census data for the LDM Waltz wouldn't match.

It is starting to look like the Abstatt Waltz may not be the LDM Waltz?
Until more data surfaces, we may never know the entire story.

Idaho Dutch

 

[Matthew Roberts]

Matthew,
Thank you for letting me know.
So then getting back to your original question for this thread; It doesn't look like he is old enough to be the LDM Waltz.
Now a different question, Where did the Waltz from Abstatt go? Is he the LDM Waltz, but just didn't come over on the Ville de Lyon? But he was born in November and the census data for the LDM Waltz wouldn't match.

It is starting to look like the Abstatt Waltz may not be the LDM Waltz?
Until more data surfaces, we may never know the entire story.

Idaho Dutch

Idahodutch,

The Abstatt Waltz was a force fit from the very beginning. Too many things had to be overlooked to believe Abstatt Waltz was the Dutchman.

Abstatt Waltz was actually JaKob F. Walz not Jacob Waltz.

Abstatt Waltz was an Oeconom, a business administration major at Schlosgut Hohenheim University at Stuttgart Germany. Dutchman Waltz was a poor miner never had any business dealings.

In the 1850 California census Jacob Waltz middle initial is W not the Abstatt Waltz's middle initial of F.

When Abstatt Waltz's father died he left his son a sizable estate in money, real estate (buildings) and land yet the Dutchman Jacob Waltz never had anything to do with it. (?) Because the Dutchman was not the Abstatt Waltz.

German's who immigrated to America through New York City did not migrate to the deep south like Natchez Mississippi, their traditional migration was east through Pennsylvania, and Ohio. Germans immigrating to America could have landed as easily and cheaper through New Orleans if they were going to the south (Natchez Mississippi, Georgia, etc.)

 

[PotBelly Jim]

Matthew,
Thank you for letting me know.
So then getting back to your original question for this thread; It doesn't look like he is old enough to be the LDM Waltz.
Now a different question, Where did the Waltz from Abstatt go? Is he the LDM Waltz, but just didn't come over on the Ville de Lyon? But he was born in November and the census data for the LDM Waltz wouldn't match.

It is starting to look like the Abstatt Waltz may not be the LDM Waltz?
Until more data surfaces, we may never know the entire story.

Idaho Dutch

Idaho,

It might be worth looking at the actual documentation that Dr. Oertel used, rather than an online file that has been transcribed:


The original passenger list of the Ville De Lyon clearly shows the Jacob Waltz onboard was 28 years old vice 20. This original document is what was used for Dr. Glover's book and Dr. Oertel's research. Both scientists, who prefer original documentation where it exists.

The original passenger list is available to anyone online at:Passenger lists of vessels arriving at New York, 1820-1897 [microform] : United States. Bureau of Customs : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive