Was Adolph Ruth really seeking the Lost Dutchman mine or another?

[Oroblanco]

A big Dakota HOWDY to you all,

I am still not 100% convinced that Adolph Ruth was ever really seeking the Lost Dutchman mine of Jacob Waltz. In support of this contention, I would point out that when he arrived at the Quarter Circle U and the other prospectors there were quizzing him freely, he did not state he was after the Lost Dutchman, but one of the other men suggested it and he simply went along with it.

Further, his own son Erwin Ruth, titled his own unpublished manuscript about the lost mine that he and his father searched for, the "Lost Mexican mine" etc not the Lost Dutchman mine.

Ruth's map came from Mexico, not from Waltz or any of Waltz's friends/associates as most of the treasure maps did.

Change my mind, and thanks in advance.

Coffee? Sock coffee for the sourdoughs and hard cases of course!

 

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[releventchair]

Switching from the Borrego desert to the area of Sups...Is quite a switch. Yet time had passed since Borrego days. And Erwin's Gonzales maps entered the picture.

What Ruth thought of the old map(s) mine being the same mine....We'd need to know Ruth's mind.
An un relocated mine could be any mine.(?)
And the date of Ruth's alleged map(s) pre-dated the Dutchmans (individual persons) gold. Wherever he (The Dutchman) acquired it and if from a mine , which mine.
His encountering a formerly worked mine is as feasible as Ruth finding a formerly worked mine not on his map. (?)

Well , so much for changing your mind!
Thanks kindly for the coffee.

 

[markmar]

Hi Oro

IMO, looking at the maps Adolph Ruth had in his possession , he was searching for a Mexican mine, ex Spanish, which also was worked by Waltz a short time before moved to the gold outcrop ( the Dr. Thorne residual placer ) above the tunnel ( the same tunnel of the Perfil mapa ) and dig out of it a new mine, the famous LDM.
Adolph Ruth also had another map made by himself ( Eagle head map ) using clues from the Perfil mapa, Julia's map,few clues from Jim Bark and various clues which prompt to royal fifth deposits. I believe he was looking more for the " Caverna con Casa " from the Perfil mapa than for a specific mine. He had clues for a cave with royal gold close to that landmark. IMO, that clue is correct and made me impression the accurate location of the gold deposit depicted in his map in regards to the " Casa " landmark.

 

[metrotec]

a large cache was found East of the Superstitions, on GOVERNMENT Land. Sorry they say, cannot dig at this writing, but papers have been filed
My guess is, the Feds have it by now.

 

[PotBelly Jim]

I kind of agree with Jim Bark on maps to the LDM: "They are all equally valuable". I don't believe I've ever seen the actual map or copy of same that Ruth carried into the mountains. Seen a lot that purported to be, tho.

Roy, doesn't really matter to me what Ruth was looking for, so only for purposes of (polite) argument and furthering the discussion:

If we're to believe Jim Bark, Ruth carried instructions to the mine in his checkbook which was found with his remains. Those instructions were almost word-for-word copies of two parts of Bick's 1895 article. The article was in fact re-printed in Kansas City while Ruth was living there in 1895. Not that it proves anything, but it seems likely Ruth would have seen it (people have argued in the past that Ruth wouldn't have seen the article, because it was never printed in KC, but I have a copy of Bick's article that ran in the KC paper)...anyway...we all recall that the infamous 1895 article tells the story of how Jacob Waltz had a mine that used to be a Peralta mine, in the Supes.

So if Ruth had copied the directions to the mine from that article, and those directions in his own handwriting were found on his remains, it seems logical to me that he was in fact searching for that same mine. Whether any of it is true or not, that is the question

 

[393stroker]

I think I know where he was trying to go. From up on the hill on the left, looking over the spire is the drawing on page 324 in treasure tales of the superstitions.

 

[coazon de oro]

Howdy Roy,

Yes Ruth was looking for the LDM, but only in his head. The Peralta's were working several mines, as the Fish map indicates. Ruth was given a map to one of these mines, and he figured it was the LDM. That's why he had LDM clues mixed in his search. The LDM was not, and is not a pit mine, nor does it have a tunnel dug below it. Waltz's confession describes a different mine.

I believe Ruth was given a map to the real pit mine, the one that Silas Haywood described to John Kochera. You yourself keep saying Dutch hunters keep mixing clues from several legends, Ruth was also guilty of that. So are many so called experts that keep writing books, adding new made up clues. Look at all who claim to have found the LDM, and you will find new made up clues, or clues twisted to fit their solve.

Even the gold ore that Kochera found, did not match the gold ore that Haywood described from the pit mine, nor did it match the Dutchman's ore, so again, yes the Peralta's were working several mines.

Homar

 

[Idahodutch]

Good morning Oro,
I’ve sort of figured that the Mexican mine map is what started Ruth’s quest.
Then the LDM information seemed to play in there somehow for Ruth.
What did Ruth have with him as he went in?
Lots of debates, but seems pretty certain that there was at least 2 sources of directions, that he was working from.
I believe Ruth found landmarks that he believed to authenticate at least one of the sets of directions.

I suspect that by the time Ruth was actually in the Supes, that he was also looking for LDM.
Not very absolute, but sure seems likely.
Idahodutch

 

[markmar]

Before 1930, the year Gonzalez made his last trip into the Superstitions, there was not any Mexican map yet floating around which would described any mine in the range. There were only oral clues and few maps made by Waltz and a confusing Julia's map.

Just after Gonzales vanished in the Superstitions, there appeared instantly three Mexican maps, the Perfil aka mapa del desierto, the Canon Fresco with the line which connects the WN with FP and the Peralta locator map which are two maps in one. And all these maps allegedly given by Gonzalez to E. Ruth as a recompense. What a story, almost made me cry.

IMO, A. Ruth was called that summer in Arizona after new clues on LDM were rised, what else than what maps Gonzalez was holding with him?
It's clear A. Ruth was not working alone in that research. He was involved in a dangerous research, with dangerous people, who maybe didn't hesitated to take his life like did with the Gonzalez's. Was his choise and has paid for it.

From my research, the Perfil mapa and the Peralta locator map are for the LDM inclined shaft and the Canon Fresco map is for the Haywood mine.

 

[PotBelly Jim]

Well I'm kinda going out on a limb here and don't feel the least bit qualified to opine on any maps. Not my thing. But it may be helpful to try and nail them down a bit. My understanding is:

- Erwin supposedly got some maps from Mrs. Gonzales. These maps led Adolph on his quests to Borrego and the NM/Texas area.
- Some time after or around 1919, Adolph supposedly goes back to Mexico and interviews Mrs. Gonzales, who as it turns out is also a Peralta. She gives Adolph a map to the Peralta Superstitions mine and supposedly also gives him the standard massacre story and Waltz's later involvement. She tells Ruth specifically that this is an Arizona mine not related to the Gonzales maps she had given to Erwin, that applied to other areas not in Arizona.

So, if the above is true, Adolph is in the Superstitions hunting for a Peralta mine associated with Jacob Waltz. The other Gonzales maps, his source says pertain to other mines, not in Arizona. It appears to me, anyway, that Adolph wouldn't have confused the other Gonzales maps he already had, with the Peralta map he had just been given that pertained to Arizona. Hope that makes sense.

IMO this is pretty much a slam dunk that Adolph Ruth was spending his time in the Supes looking for a Peralta mine associated with Jacob Waltz. If the stories are true, (which I highly doubt but will admit they are at least possible or partially true), the ONE map (or a copy made by Adolph) that Mrs. Gonzales gave to Ruth relating to Peraltas and Arizona, was either taken by the search party that found his body, or by his killer (if he had one).

 

[releventchair]

Well I'm kinda going out on a limb here and don't feel the least bit qualified to opine on any maps. Not my thing. But it may be helpful to try and nail them down a bit. My understanding is:

- Erwin supposedly got some maps from Mrs. Gonzales. These maps led Adolph on his quests to Borrego and the NM/Texas area.
- Some time after or around 1919, Adolph supposedly goes back to Mexico and interviews Mrs. Gonzales, who as it turns out is also a Peralta. She gives Adolph a map to the Peralta Superstitions mine and supposedly also gives him the standard massacre story and Waltz's later involvement. She tells Ruth specifically that this is an Arizona mine not related to the Gonzales maps she had given to Erwin, that applied to other areas not in Arizona.

So, if the above is true, Adolph is in the Superstitions hunting for a Peralta mine associated with Jacob Waltz. The other Gonzales maps, his source says pertain to other mines, not in Arizona. It appears to me, anyway, that Adolph wouldn't have confused the other Gonzales maps he already had, with the Peralta map he had just been given that pertained to Arizona. Hope that makes sense.

IMO this is pretty much a slam dunk that Adolph Ruth was spending his time in the Supes looking for a Peralta mine associated with Jacob Waltz. If the stories are true, (which I highly doubt but will admit they are at least possible or partially true), the ONE map (or a copy made by Adolph) that Mrs. Gonzales gave to Ruth relating to Peraltas and Arizona, was either taken by the search party that found his body, or by his killer (if he had one).

I've often wondered if Ruth was relieved of items besides map(s).
Ore sample(s) for instance.
Had he a small load like a cloth bread/lunchbag ect.(he was no burro ,able to tote much) it would likely still have been visible with a brief search.
Leading to questions the old man would not answer?

 

[Oroblanco]

Jacob and Jacob, a mistake made early on?

Well I'm kinda going out on a limb here and don't feel the least bit qualified to opine on any maps. Not my thing. But it may be helpful to try and nail them down a bit. My understanding is:

- Erwin supposedly got some maps from Mrs. Gonzales. These maps led Adolph on his quests to Borrego and the NM/Texas area.
- Some time after or around 1919, Adolph supposedly goes back to Mexico and interviews Mrs. Gonzales, who as it turns out is also a Peralta. She gives Adolph a map to the Peralta Superstitions mine and supposedly also gives him the standard massacre story and Waltz's later involvement. She tells Ruth specifically that this is an Arizona mine not related to the Gonzales maps she had given to Erwin, that applied to other areas not in Arizona.

So, if the above is true, Adolph is in the Superstitions hunting for a Peralta mine associated with Jacob Waltz. The other Gonzales maps, his source says pertain to other mines, not in Arizona. It appears to me, anyway, that Adolph wouldn't have confused the other Gonzales maps he already had, with the Peralta map he had just been given that pertained to Arizona. Hope that makes sense.

IMO this is pretty much a slam dunk that Adolph Ruth was spending his time in the Supes looking for a Peralta mine associated with Jacob Waltz. If the stories are true, (which I highly doubt but will admit they are at least possible or partially true), the ONE map (or a copy made by Adolph) that Mrs. Gonzales gave to Ruth relating to Peraltas and Arizona, was either taken by the search party that found his body, or by his killer (if he had one).

Not to pick a bone with you over your post here, but it illustrates that same leap of conclusions that Adolph Ruth himself might have made, as well as many other Dutch hunters. Those directions as published by Pierpont C. Bicknell in 1895 makes reference to "Old Yoccup" and Jacob, but has then assumed this MUST be referring to Jacob Waltz, linking the clues etc to the 'old miser' Waltz which might well have been relating to Jacob LUDI or Ludy.
Here is that article, which has all the same elements of the Ludy story:


Bicknell also found evidence of crude SILVER smelting in the rock house, which he took as fair proof that he was 'on' the right track. Yet Waltz's ore has remarkably little silver in relation to the gold content, while other mines like the Silver Chief example debated some time ago were notable for the silver content and occasional good pockets of gold.

Don't get me wrong here, I am NOT 100% convinced that Ruth was searching for a different mine than the LDM, nor am I convinced he wasn't. Please do continue, some very interesting points and solid arguments posted, thank you all.

 

[PotBelly Jim]

Roy,

Bick clearly states in the 1895 article that "Old Yoccub" signed his name "Jacob Waltz" and the directions (that were found with Ruth's remains 36 years later) were given to his housekeeper (his description fits Julia) as he lay dying. I think Bick was just reporting the story pretty much as it was given to him.

I can also point out plenty of evidence that stories about a Lost German Mine, "Jacobs and Ludi", The Lost Dutchman Mine (Jacob Waltz’s), and many others, were mixed together by any and all who repeated them. IMO it’s a hopeless mess trying to sort out what parts belong to what story. For all we know, McCarthy’s version in the July 21 1931 AZ Star is the correct one. Even though there are many problems with that one as well.

If what you’re getting at is that the LDM story as told by Bick, was hi-jacked from the “Jacobs and Ludi” story, and Ruth was really looking for a mine that Waltz never saw, I would say it’s certainly possible. It wouldn’t be the first time that something like that happened.

Hope all is well with you and yours up in the Dakota Terr.

 

[deducer]

Finally, an interesting and factual discussion devoid of trolls. Thanks, Roy.

My take on this thread is that when you look at the entire scope of Ruth's involvement with the Superstitions (as far as documents, et al), the key theme that emerge is "Peralta mine." So in that regard, I firmly believe that Ruth, even though he may have received advice or suggestions as to Waltz's involvement, had it in mind that what he was looking for was a Peralta mine, and that Waltz was probably a distant footnote to the story. Even the extensive E. Ruth/Jones correspondences do not reference Waltz, but there are numerous references to the Peraltas as well as "an old Spanish map" that played a central role in Ruth's murder.

I don't see anything amiss in Ruth using directions furnished by Bicknell's article- it was probably one of many clues he gathered and tried to mesh together, as many a Dutch Hunter has done. Except for him, the Peraltas were at the center of it all.

 

[Doc4261]

He wasn't looking for the Ldm. None of the maps he had show it. If he did think he was looking for the ldm. He would of never found it. There are 2 maps that do show where the Ldm is tho.

 

[markmar]

Not to pick a bone with you over your post here, but it illustrates that same leap of conclusions that Adolph Ruth himself might have made, as well as many other Dutch hunters. Those directions as published by Pierpont C. Bicknell in 1895 makes reference to "Old Yoccup" and Jacob, but has then assumed this MUST be referring to Jacob Waltz, linking the clues etc to the 'old miser' Waltz which might well have been relating to Jacob LUDI or Ludy.
Here is that article, which has all the same elements of the Ludy story:
View attachment 1862938

Bicknell also found evidence of crude SILVER smelting in the rock house, which he took as fair proof that he was 'on' the right track. Yet Waltz's ore has remarkably little silver in relation to the gold content, while other mines like the Silver Chief example debated some time ago were notable for the silver content and occasional good pockets of gold.

Don't get me wrong here, I am NOT 100% convinced that Ruth was searching for a different mine than the LDM, nor am I convinced he wasn't. Please do continue, some very interesting points and solid arguments posted, thank you all.

Hi Roy

I found Bicknell article you posted more accurate than what Barry Storm wrote about.
I have selected two texts from that article, texts which IMO show how Waltz and partner have found the DR.Thorne gold residual placer. And this texts are:

View attachment Text.bmp View attachment text2.bmp

The texts show clearly how Waltz at his first attempt to find the mine and didn't knowing the region of the mine, instead to go around and from above for an easier approaching to the mine, like would do someone who knew the region, he and his partner have chosen to go straight up the ravine below the mine in regards to approach quickly the spot of the sounds.
They have chosen to climb up the " gulch " mentioned in the LDM clues, the only possible way to climb up from below, a very difficult climb, which fortunatelly for them, ends up at the ledge where the tunnel and gold vein outcrop was located.
From there they had to go to the side (the only entrance/exit to/from that place ) where a narrow pass between the boulders would take them at about 100 feet from the inclined shaft gold mine.
I believe that climb up from below, was the first and the last they did in regards to approach the mines.
So, if you come to Herman's clues, then yes he was right when said Waltz found first the " placer " and after the shaft. With the difference all these occurred at the same time, in the same day.

 

[rk85044]

sirs: it seems to me the majority of questions
are answered below in the the thread
the mysterious death of adolph ruth
by roberts....very interesting to consider
if these observations are indeed true
read for yourself.

 

[Mc4500]

In my opinion: the ldm, Per alta, Spanish, Indian and the kings 10th are all the same story but separated through history. Just about every story says that the Indians knew of the "mines" first and I think that clue is overlooked too often. I think the Indians knew of it first, then the Jesuits/Spanish exploited the area, then the "Mexicans", then Jacob waltz. All the same mines and stashes separated by 50 to 100 years. I believe that there are separate mines and stores but they all relate to the same area, therefore there isn't exactly a separate Ldm, I believe they are all one in the same.

 

[markmar]

In my opinion: the ldm, Per alta, Spanish, Indian and the kings 10th are all the same story but separated through history. Just about every story says that the Indians knew of the "mines" first and I think that clue is overlooked too often. I think the Indians knew of it first, then the Jesuits/Spanish exploited the area, then the "Mexicans", then Jacob waltz. All the same mines and stashes separated by 50 to 100 years. I believe that there are separate mines and stores but they all relate to the same area, therefore there isn't exactly a separate Ldm, I believe they are all one in the same.

You are right in the most you wrote. Many of these stories are about the same region, the Antelope ( horse of Santa Fe ) diggings.

 

[PotBelly Jim]

Finally, an interesting and factual discussion devoid of trolls. Thanks, Roy.

My take on this thread is that when you look at the entire scope of Ruth's involvement with the Superstitions (as far as documents, et al), the key theme that emerge is "Peralta mine." So in that regard, I firmly believe that Ruth, even though he may have received advice or suggestions as to Waltz's involvement, had it in mind that what he was looking for was a Peralta mine, and that Waltz was probably a distant footnote to the story. Even the extensive E. Ruth/Jones correspondences do not reference Waltz, but there are numerous references to the Peraltas as well as "an old Spanish map" that played a central role in Ruth's murder.

I don't see anything amiss in Ruth using directions furnished by Bicknell's article- it was probably one of many clues he gathered and tried to mesh together, as many a Dutch Hunter has done. Except for him, the Peraltas were at the center of it all.

Pretty much how I see it as well. But I do think Ruth thought he was looking for the mine in Bick's article (a Peralta mine which was later mined by Waltz, which became generally known as the LDM). So I would say Waltz was probably a little more than a distant footnote, but a minor point. For one, Ruth carried the Julia/Bick directions with him on his fatal trip. They were important enough for him to update them with Veni, Vidi, Vici at some point, possibly in the field when he saw what he was looking for.

He was also reported to have written "about 200ft from the cave" (which I don't see on what I believe to be the original note found on Adoplh's body, the one in the Sims Ely collection that he got from the Ruth family...but then again the photostat may not contain the entire note). This wasalso a reference to Bick's article. Then, Erwin also makes reference to the Bick article in a note he writes. This note is on pg.134 of Dr. Glover's "Treasure Tales" and I've never really known what to think of it. It appears this reference by Erwin was made regarding the Borrego hunt, possibly in 1929, prior to Adolph making his trip to AZ in 1931. But it's definitely from Bick's article...just another one those things that make you wonder and not something I've followed up on. Here's what Erwin wrote for those that don't have the book:

"In its weird loneliness it seems an index finger marking the location of some hidden mystery. Owing to its resemblance, from one point of view, to a high-crowned pointed sombrero, the Mexicans call it El Sombrero. This hill or really a mountain of some 2000 feet is flanked on either side by lesser hills which from a certain viewpoint appears like the turned up brim of the well-known Mexican hat."

Almost word for word, taken from Bick's 1895 article. I've often wondered if the directions were "planted" on Ruth's body, but the handwriting on the photostat (which is a dead-ringer for Adolph's handwriting, unlike other handwritten copies of the note I've seen) and Erwin's quoting of the article, makes me believe the 1895 Bick article is a genuine piece of the Ruth's treasure hunting activities.