Rendezvous 2020 presentation by Dr. Thomas Glover
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  1. #1
    us
    Dec 2017
    771
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    Rendezvous 2020 presentation by Dr. Thomas Glover

    Many thanks to Dr. Glover for providing a textual summation of his presentation at this year's Rendezvous. Many people were unable to attend this year due to travel restrictions. He generously took the time to write this down for everyone who missed the event:

    Rendezvous 2020

    I had hoped to get this out before now -- but somehow a combination of life seasoned with procrastination intervened.

    The talk I gave at the 2020 Rendezvous asked the question:

    What is the Most Important Missing Clue about the Lost Dutchman Mine?

    The answer is: Not clues, not maps, but rather the lack of a CLAIM.

    Now anyone who has studied the old claims knows that those claims rarely give the location of a mine. The written claims for the three mines Waltz claimed in Yavapai County give no clue to the physical location of those mines. The closest they come to location is the mining district. If the claim was filed in the Turkey Creek Mining Book then we only know that the mine was in that district. Sometimes not even that.

    If we had a claim, while we still wouldn’t know where the mine is, we would know where it isn’t. For you see, the lost Dutchman Mine is probably the most found lost mine in the country!

    Waltz died in 1891; just ten years after he died the mine had been found, and found and found. The Mohave County Miner newspaper reported in its October 12, 1901 issue:

    “The Lost Dutchman mine has again been found. The fact of the finding of this mine for the past twenty years has kept alive the mining industries of the territory. At least a dozen Lost Dutchman mines are found yearly and, strange to relate, many of them turn out to be remarkably good producers. Let the prospector keep on finding the old lost mine and his fortune is made, no matter if it is not the original.”

    Interestingly, the article says 20 years, probably a typo. It should have read just 10 years.

    To the best of my understanding newspapers and documents show the mine has been found in, at the least, the following counties – Gila, Maricopa, Mohave, Pinal and Yavapai.

    Milton Rose found it in the Four Peaks. He claimed it was a rich gold pocket which he mined out. He got $11,000 in gold, which does not seem like much money for the Dutchman. However, back then gold was $16.00 an ounce. At today’s gold price and factoring in inflation, Rose’s gold find would be worth millions.

    The above is the heart of the talk. However, before I went into it, I talked about the Ely family. Why? Just before starting my talk I heard someone in the audience say something about Ely’s book the Lost Dutchman Mine. So I thought it best to address Ely and his book first. Following is a bulleted summation.

    The Ely family was well known in the East. One of Sims’ sons, Northcutt Ely, was a very accomplished attorney of international standing.

    Northcutt was known for his knowledge of international law, especially the law of the sea.

    An indication is a story told in his family: that Northcutt had an annoying habit … he would call his wife sometime in the afternoon to say he was bringing the president home for dinner. No advanced notice.

    Sims retired shortly before WW II. He was called back into service in an administrative position.

    Sims kept busy (understatement). But, with the end of WW II Sims’ family was concerned that Sims would just sit around – which they thought would not be good for his mind.

    Jim Bark wrote a manuscript in the in the ‘30s, which has become known as the “Bark Notes”.

    • Bark wrote the manuscript for publication, but he was unsuccessful.

    • Bark died in 1939.

    • Sims’ family floated the idea to Sims about him writing a book as a tribute to his and Bark’s friendship, and their search for the Lost Dutchman Mine.

    Sims embraced the idea of writing a tribute to Jim and their friendship.

    • Now the bad news. Sims wrote a manuscript that would likely have made a good government report – detailed, linear. But it did not make a good book.

    • When Sims’ manuscript was finished sufficiently to be presented to a publisher, Sims and family started sending the manuscript to publishers.

    • However, the Ely family was not your typical family – they moved in the upper echelon of Washington and New York. Thus, they did not submit the manuscript through normal channels.

    • They sent it to friends, people who were editors, senior editors, the chief executives of publishing.

    • When you read the rejection letters they got it is “interesting”. Those letters are personal letters saying something like: A most interesting manuscript, unfortunately it does not fit with our current plans. When you next get to New York please let us know for a good bridge game, or dinner, or ….

    The family kept trying. Finally they tried Wm. Morrow and Co. and, of course the manuscript went to a senior officer(s).

    William Morrow turned it over to John Willey. After leaving the Army (WWII) in 1946 John Willey went to work at William Morrow and Co.

    Willey was a well-educated man. He first had a senior position as executive assistant to the Morrow(s). Circa 1952 he became treasurer, and then editor in chief.

    • Ely’s manuscript was submitted to Morrow and Co. circa late 1940s.

    It seems that what was a sort of “hot potato” was given to Willey.

    • Willey saw two things: First, that Sims’ manuscript was essentially “unpublishable”. Second, it was a great story.

    • Willey took over the project using Sims’ manuscript. With a good imagination Willey turned out a very successful book. Multiple printings in the States, a British edition and I think also a Canadian edition.

    • However, note that a good part —as in almost all, of the book — is Willey’s creation. For example, the entire first chapter was written by Willey. The book was written to sell! And it did.

    • When you read what survives of Ely’s manuscript it quickly becomes apparent as to why it had to be totally rewritten.

    The point is, do not read Ely’s book as factual – in fact there is some possibility that when the book first came out it was categorized as fiction.

    How do I know this? I knew and know the Ely family. Sims’ son, Northcutt, was a personal friend. He passed to me the surviving Sims Ely family files concerning Sims’ involvement in the search for the mine—which also included the correspondence between the family and Willey. As for Willey’s history, look up his obituary in the New York Times.

  2. #2
    us
    Nov 2011
    Jamestown ND
    Garrett 2500
    1,830
    1379 times
    Old Jesuits and Spainish Mines
    Potbelly

    Really don’t make a lot of sense, Milton Rose found the mine and cleaned it out of 11,000 dollars. Waltz hand 50 pounds under his bed worth 5,000. All he had to do was go it two more 50 pound loads and had it all. But instead covers the mine up. Something not even close to sensible with that story at all. No one would do that.

    Milton Rose did not find the Dutchman’s Mine..

    Clearly just some more yarn mixed into the legend

    babymick1
    PotBelly Jim and gollum like this.

  3. #3
    us
    Sep 2019
    Idaho
    Whites MXT
    1,089
    3398 times
    LDM
    Quote Originally Posted by wrmickel1 View Post
    Potbelly

    Really don’t make a lot of sense, Milton Rose found the mine and cleaned it out of 11,000 dollars. Waltz hand 50 pounds under his bed worth 5,000. All he had to do was go it two more 50 pound loads and had it all. But instead covers the mine up. Something not even close to sensible with that story at all. No one would do that.

    Milton Rose did not find the Dutchman’s Mine..

    Clearly just some more yarn mixed into the legend

    babymick1
    Babymick1,
    I don’t think what Milton Rose found in 4-Peaks was the LDM either, but it sounds like he found enough to cash a good pile in.
    I got the impression the discussion was more about “how many different people found the LDM” , or thought they did.
    I’m probably on the list of “almost” 😎

    Maybe I read something into it that wasn’t?
    Idahodutch
    PotBelly Jim likes this.

  4. #4
    us
    Nov 2011
    Jamestown ND
    Garrett 2500
    1,830
    1379 times
    Old Jesuits and Spainish Mines
    Quote Originally Posted by Idahodutch View Post
    Babymick1,
    I don’t think what Milton Rose found in 4-Peaks was the LDM either, but it sounds like he found enough to cash a good pile in.
    I got the impression the discussion was more about “how many different people found the LDM” , or thought they did.
    I’m probably on the list of “almost” 😎

    Maybe I read something into it that wasn’t?
    Idahodutch

    Yeah I git that, it’s all a yarn, anything said after Julia and Rienhart passed away.

    Babymick1
    PotBelly Jim and Idahodutch like this.

  5. #5
    us
    May 2010
    texas
    1,528
    3556 times
    All Types Of Treasure Hunting
    Quote Originally Posted by PotBelly Jim View Post
    Many thanks to Dr. Glover for providing a textual summation of his presentation at this year's Rendezvous. Many people were unable to attend this year due to travel restrictions. He generously took the time to write this down for everyone who missed the event:

    Rendezvous 2020

    I had hoped to get this out before now -- but somehow a combination of life seasoned with procrastination intervened.

    The talk I gave at the 2020 Rendezvous asked the question:

    What is the Most Important Missing Clue about the Lost Dutchman Mine?

    The answer is: Not clues, not maps, but rather the lack of a CLAIM.

    Now anyone who has studied the old claims knows that those claims rarely give the location of a mine. The written claims for the three mines Waltz claimed in Yavapai County give no clue to the physical location of those mines. The closest they come to location is the mining district. If the claim was filed in the Turkey Creek Mining Book then we only know that the mine was in that district. Sometimes not even that.

    If we had a claim, while we still wouldn’t know where the mine is, we would know where it isn’t. For you see, the lost Dutchman Mine is probably the most found lost mine in the country!

    Waltz died in 1891; just ten years after he died the mine had been found, and found and found. The Mohave County Miner newspaper reported in its October 12, 1901 issue:

    “The Lost Dutchman mine has again been found. The fact of the finding of this mine for the past twenty years has kept alive the mining industries of the territory. At least a dozen Lost Dutchman mines are found yearly and, strange to relate, many of them turn out to be remarkably good producers. Let the prospector keep on finding the old lost mine and his fortune is made, no matter if it is not the original.”

    Interestingly, the article says 20 years, probably a typo. It should have read just 10 years.

    To the best of my understanding newspapers and documents show the mine has been found in, at the least, the following counties – Gila, Maricopa, Mohave, Pinal and Yavapai.

    Milton Rose found it in the Four Peaks. He claimed it was a rich gold pocket which he mined out. He got $11,000 in gold, which does not seem like much money for the Dutchman. However, back then gold was $16.00 an ounce. At today’s gold price and factoring in inflation, Rose’s gold find would be worth millions.

    The above is the heart of the talk. However, before I went into it, I talked about the Ely family. Why? Just before starting my talk I heard someone in the audience say something about Ely’s book the Lost Dutchman Mine. So I thought it best to address Ely and his book first. Following is a bulleted summation.

    The Ely family was well known in the East. One of Sims’ sons, Northcutt Ely, was a very accomplished attorney of international standing.

    Northcutt was known for his knowledge of international law, especially the law of the sea.

    An indication is a story told in his family: that Northcutt had an annoying habit … he would call his wife sometime in the afternoon to say he was bringing the president home for dinner. No advanced notice.

    Sims retired shortly before WW II. He was called back into service in an administrative position.

    Sims kept busy (understatement). But, with the end of WW II Sims’ family was concerned that Sims would just sit around – which they thought would not be good for his mind.

    Jim Bark wrote a manuscript in the in the ‘30s, which has become known as the “Bark Notes”.

    • Bark wrote the manuscript for publication, but he was unsuccessful.

    • Bark died in 1939.

    • Sims’ family floated the idea to Sims about him writing a book as a tribute to his and Bark’s friendship, and their search for the Lost Dutchman Mine.

    Sims embraced the idea of writing a tribute to Jim and their friendship.

    • Now the bad news. Sims wrote a manuscript that would likely have made a good government report – detailed, linear. But it did not make a good book.

    • When Sims’ manuscript was finished sufficiently to be presented to a publisher, Sims and family started sending the manuscript to publishers.

    • However, the Ely family was not your typical family – they moved in the upper echelon of Washington and New York. Thus, they did not submit the manuscript through normal channels.

    • They sent it to friends, people who were editors, senior editors, the chief executives of publishing.

    • When you read the rejection letters they got it is “interesting”. Those letters are personal letters saying something like: A most interesting manuscript, unfortunately it does not fit with our current plans. When you next get to New York please let us know for a good bridge game, or dinner, or ….

    The family kept trying. Finally they tried Wm. Morrow and Co. and, of course the manuscript went to a senior officer(s).

    William Morrow turned it over to John Willey. After leaving the Army (WWII) in 1946 John Willey went to work at William Morrow and Co.

    Willey was a well-educated man. He first had a senior position as executive assistant to the Morrow(s). Circa 1952 he became treasurer, and then editor in chief.

    • Ely’s manuscript was submitted to Morrow and Co. circa late 1940s.

    It seems that what was a sort of “hot potato” was given to Willey.

    • Willey saw two things: First, that Sims’ manuscript was essentially “unpublishable”. Second, it was a great story.

    • Willey took over the project using Sims’ manuscript. With a good imagination Willey turned out a very successful book. Multiple printings in the States, a British edition and I think also a Canadian edition.

    • However, note that a good part —as in almost all, of the book — is Willey’s creation. For example, the entire first chapter was written by Willey. The book was written to sell! And it did.

    • When you read what survives of Ely’s manuscript it quickly becomes apparent as to why it had to be totally rewritten.

    The point is, do not read Ely’s book as factual – in fact there is some possibility that when the book first came out it was categorized as fiction.

    How do I know this? I knew and know the Ely family. Sims’ son, Northcutt, was a personal friend. He passed to me the surviving Sims Ely family files concerning Sims’ involvement in the search for the mine—which also included the correspondence between the family and Willey. As for Willey’s history, look up his obituary in the New York Times.
    Well I have always said that Sims Ely book was one of the worst books out there as far as useful information.

    On the question "What is the most important missing clue about the LDM", I beg to differ. To begin with there are no missing clues, they just have to be gleaned from all the different writings. Lack of a claim? There are hundreds of found it claims. Even though Waltz never filed a claim, none of the so called found mines fit the clues left by Jacob Waltz. At least 12 of his clues should be verified on the spot. They describe what is there, what is close by, and what can be seen from there. Waltz's directions do not take you to different counties, they keep you in only one. Waltz's directions take you into those Salt Mountains.

    So there you have it, while Waltz did not leave directions to the mines he did claim, he did leave very precise directions to the LDM. So we know it isn't anywhere other than those Salt Mountains South of the Salt River.

    Homar

  6. #6

    Jan 2014
    2,151
    4058 times
    "Travel restrictions..."

    Click image for larger version. 

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    PotBelly Jim likes this.

  7. #7
    ca
    May 2007
    4,218
    6145 times
    All Types Of Treasure Hunting
    Quote Originally Posted by deducer View Post
    "Travel restrictions..."

    Click image for larger version. 

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ID:	1884331
    A voyage via raft down the Mississippi would have taken too long.
    Great piece of literature though, and a treasure tale as well.
    A shame it's been banned in so many libraries .
    Last edited by somehiker; Dec 06, 2020 at 02:34 AM.
    PotBelly Jim and wrmickel1 like this.
    Hell,you ain't never too old to look!

  8. #8
    us
    Dec 2017
    771
    2421 times
    Mick: I believe the amount Milton Rose said came out of the 4 peaks pocket was $18k...after an investment of $2k, they cleared $16k. Can't say I would argue with anything you posted.
    Idaho: I agree 100%, it sounded to me like Dr. Glover was making the point about how many people said they found the mine in so many different places.
    Homar: It's always good to see you posting, amigo Here's what Milton Rose had to say about Ely's book:

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Rose on Ely.JPG 
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ID:	1884418

    Like many things Rose, just when you think he's not making any sense, he seems to have had it right all along

  9. #9
    us
    Dec 2017
    771
    2421 times
    Quote Originally Posted by deducer View Post
    "Travel restrictions..."

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	norman-rockwell-tom-sawyer-whitewashing-the-fence.jpg 
Views:	40 
Size:	174.2 KB 
ID:	1884331
    You caught me...I'm responsible for the whole thing. Now that there's been a confession, perhaps we can move on to a relevant topic? (Wink, grin, nudge...)
    Idahodutch likes this.

  10. #10

    Jan 2014
    2,151
    4058 times
    In retrospect, I probably should have resisted in a more civilized manner, instead of taking a jab.

    As much as I hate to continually step on toes, especially of those I admire and respect, I just cannot condone any attempt at sanitizing history, especially that revived "lost cause" attempt which will continue to deeply divide this country.

    After all, relevantly speaking, a sanitized and manipulated history is the biggest reason the LDM remains lost to this day.

  11. #11
    us
    Dec 2017
    771
    2421 times
    Quote Originally Posted by deducer View Post
    In retrospect, I probably should have resisted in a more civilized manner, instead of taking a jab.

    As much as I hate to continually step on toes, especially of those I admire and respect, I just cannot condone any attempt at sanitizing history, especially that revived "lost cause" attempt which will continue to deeply divide this country.

    After all, relevantly speaking, a sanitized and manipulated history is the biggest reason the LDM remains lost to this day.
    Happy Sunday. Hope I didn't sound offended, because I wasn't. I actually laughed when I saw it. You're welcome to post anything you like in any thread I start, even if it's not relevant. I was taking a bit of a jab there myself, which I figured you would take in good grace. The mods may have a different view, but I don't

  12. #12
    pt
    Sep 2014
    3,029
    7874 times
    The facts behind the factoids
    Quote Originally Posted by deducer View Post
    In retrospect, I probably should have resisted in a more civilized manner, instead of taking a jab.

    As much as I hate to continually step on toes, especially of those I admire and respect, I just cannot condone any attempt at sanitizing history, especially that revived "lost cause" attempt which will continue to deeply divide this country.

    After all, relevantly speaking, a sanitized and manipulated history is the biggest reason the LDM remains lost to this day.
    All history is sanitized and manipulated to varying degrees - all the way from 12,000 years ago's history to yesterday's. Find out who benefits, then work backwards.
    "There are no rules, only discovery."
    Primary Woo Rule

  13. #13
    pt
    Sep 2014
    3,029
    7874 times
    The facts behind the factoids
    Quote Originally Posted by PotBelly Jim View Post
    Mick: I believe the amount Milton Rose said came out of the 4 peaks pocket was $18k...after an investment of $2k, they cleared $16k. Can't say I would argue with anything you posted.
    Idaho: I agree 100%, it sounded to me like Dr. Glover was making the point about how many people said they found the mine in so many different places.
    Homar: It's always good to see you posting, amigo Here's what Milton Rose had to say about Ely's book:

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Rose on Ely.JPG 
Views:	66 
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ID:	1884418

    Like many things Rose, just when you think he's not making any sense, he seems to have had it right all along
    Although "controversial" in many's eyes (trickster?), I consider Rose top-tier, based partly on some unpublished work of his that I got through a friend. That friend, an assayer who knew him very well way back in the day - and allowed him access to his "incredible research library" - indicated that Rose seemed to operate an octave higher than his contemporaries.
    Idahodutch and PotBelly Jim like this.
    "There are no rules, only discovery."
    Primary Woo Rule

  14. #14
    us
    Dec 2017
    771
    2421 times
    Quote Originally Posted by sdcfia View Post
    Although "controversial" in many's eyes (trickster?), I consider Rose top-tier, based partly on some unpublished work of his that I got through a friend. That friend, an assayer who knew him very well way back in the day - and allowed him access to his "incredible research library" - indicated that Rose seemed to operate an octave higher than his contemporaries.
    Steve, I've always wondered about something Rose said...I should've thought to ask you of all people...have you ever found any evidence of Rose's uncle being on the Miner Expedition? I believe it was supposed to have been Will Rose.

    As far as him being derided, it kinda makes sense. A bunch of part-time treasure seekers with pretty much made-up second-hand stories, talking down an actual treasure hunter/miner who knew most of the people he writes about and lived in AZ longer than most of 'em combined...yep, about par for the course I'd say
    Idahodutch and sdcfia like this.

  15. #15

    Jan 2014
    2,151
    4058 times
    Quote Originally Posted by somehiker View Post
    A voyage via raft down the Mississippi would have taken too long.
    Great piece of literature though, and a treasure tale as well.
    A shame it's been banned in so many libraries .
    Banned for ripping off the bandage that was revisionist history. Twain's stance on the issue was very well-known.

    The uncensored dialogue being a brutal and frank portrayal of how things really were, and how certain people were perceived, in the deep south. Something that continues to this day.

 

 
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