Doc Thorne gold...Is it an easier legend than the LDM

Doc4261

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Doc, what happened to your guide? Has he returned from being AWOL, I hope?

I'm not sure about Jesuits being up there, but I don't know much about them. One thing that strikes me about this area, it kinda makes sense but in a backwards way.

I don't buy the "8 years in captivity" story, nor do I think it's very likely Thorne would have been picked up by Indians near Gila Bend, then taken into the Sierra Ancha country. This means he would've been grabbed by Yavapais, maybe raiding Tontos, and taken to the lands of the Pinal...by the same band? OK, but I just don't see that happening. Doesn't compute.

The stories seem accurate in that, as a Quaker, Thorne would've never raised a hand against any man. They were pacifists, friends to all men. Nor would he have subscribed to racial extermination policies, or thought himself above anyone. A doctor, IMO, is a natural occupation for someone with that world-view, in America, in those times.

So if he were taken captive by Indians, I don't think he would have resisted much by trying to fight them off. I don't think he would have shown any fear either. If any of his companions were murdered, it may have angered him but I don't think he would've tried to avenge them or shown any physical hostility to those who had done it. He'd probably be more likely to pray. That type of violence would be out of character for a Quaker.

Given where Thorne lived, we can be safe in assuming he knew many Apaches from many bands, and most likely treated their injuries and ailments. Most of the old stories have Thorne coming from California, along the Gila, to either Ft McDowell or back east. What makes more sense to me, what if Thorne was actually traveling DOWN the Gila from NM, to return to family in CA? What if the stories just got his travel backwards? Easy mistake to make. He would've started by going through the lands of friendly Apaches. But after passing through that country he would have entered the lands of the Pinals, and he wouldn't have been very welcome, to say the least. I can see a scenario where he may have been grabbed, treated one or more Pinals, seen some gold, and spared indefinitely until he was able to walk over to another band of Indians (not necessarily Navajo's, but still closer to his home), and from there would've easily made his way back to NM, as told in the stories. If his home was in NM, it seems a natural place to go, especially as it was in the other direction from hostile Indians ;) But the stories seem to agree that he ended up in NM.

Speculation, for sure...but such a scenario seems to fit the area of Sombrero Butte better. While it's very possible that Cooley was searching the wrong area, and should've been closer to or in the Supes, it seems unlikely Cooley would've gotten it so wrong. I think he was too familiar with NM and AZ to be that far off, given that he was a contemporary of Thorne's and quite possibly knew him well. That being said, he never found the gold...Banta thought it had been a fool's errand, and McCarthy said he'd found it and it was just a pile of Pyrites. :dontknow:








He's around, Don't know if he got a new phone or what. He is a survivalist. So likes being out of cell service. A free bird. Why I liked his company. Was just up for the adventure. had no clue of what I was looking for. But do know he found a tunnel. Said he wouldn't tell me if he had found something good. Know he went back up atleast once. Other than that when I didn't go down last yr in Dec, he went total quiet. Im sure when I Do my thing Ill find him and give him his share of the take of "rock samples" for his time he spent with me. Maybe in return he will share what he had found. Im sure Ill find his cave this yr. I vaguely remember where he was at when He yelled at me to look at a natural bridge (arch) he was walking on. I was in a hurry though to get off of the mntn to see my grandma, while we were at camp after leaving the area on the way out he told me about the walled up tunnel by the arch. I haven't been been back since. Its coming tho. mntns are calling me, 2 yrs is too long.. Getting old fast.


As for Sierra Ancha country , Believe the story of Pipps being buried above was from up that way. If there was gold that way, I damn well believe the Jesuits knew about it . Think this map takes out any doubts.
FB_IMG_1608140631277.jpg
 

PotBelly Jim

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OP asked the question...Is the Doc Thorne an easier legend than the LDM?

On the surface, it might seem so. And, so far, we've been sticking to the original, earliest tales.

Now to muck up the works:

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wrmickel1

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Mick,

OK, I think I get what you mean. I agree on the Julia part about where she went. I also agree that the Holmes directions seem to be based on when he supposedly followed Waltz. There could be many reasons for that. One is that it's the truth. But I have no idea.

It seems you're asserting that Holmes had nothing, and the Holmes directions were derived long after the fact? That they were based on Julia's actions? I don't see a connection there.

Potbelly yes Holmes clues are I saw him here and there. Only one had the real clues, It's the most logical choice. Waltz never went very far into the range.

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coazon de oro

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Howdy Jim,

In my honest opinion, the Doc Thorne mine, and the Lost Dutchman mine are one and the same.
 

Idahodutch

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Howdy Jim,

In my honest opinion, the Doc Thorne mine, and the Lost Dutchman mine are one and the same.

Hello Homar,
I think it possible the gold came from the same place too.
All versions about Doc have it picked up from the ground. It does sound like bedrock. Stories don?t say anything about prying out or digging out the pieces....

Thing is, how would anybody be able to know?
No way to prove a Doc Thorn gold find, was actually Doc Thorne gold.
Not that I know of anyway :dontknow:
 

coazon de oro

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Hello Homar,
I think it possible the gold came from the same place too.
All versions about Doc have it picked up from the ground. It does sound like bedrock. Stories don?t say anything about prying out or digging out the pieces....

Thing is, how would anybody be able to know?
No way to prove a Doc Thorn gold find, was actually Doc Thorne gold.
Not that I know of anyway :dontknow:

Howdy Idahodutch,

It could have been a jack load pile that didn't make it out of the Superstitions, or maybe the Apache placed it there to reward Thorne. The LDM has always had excess ore, just look at the map that Doc reposted on post 161, it was an "Almacen". The Fish map shows 50 mule loads. Then in 1853-54 when the Peralta's worked, and surveyed the mine, they also left ore they could not take, according The Salazar Survey by Clay Worst. Heck even Waltz left around 250 pounds in there before he covered it.

I know it can not be proven, but if it walks like a duck...............the clues describe the same mine, so you can rest assured it is a duck.

No one can find it unless they understand the clues whether it's with g.e., or boots on the ground. No one is going to stumble into it, "you can drive a pack train over it, and not know it's there". It has to be solved.

Homar
 

coazon de oro

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Howdy embrym,

I had read some where that Waltz found his mine in the mid 1860's, not sure anymore. However he did not find it looking for the Doc Thorne mine, it was shown to him by the three Mexicans he killed. He would not confess to murder if he had actually found it. If he was mining it in the mid 1860's, it would give him reason to go on Cooley's search party, to lead them away from it if they came close.

Homar
 

: Michael-Robert.

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Howdy embrym,

I had read some where that Waltz found his mine in the mid 1860's, not sure anymore. However he did not find it looking for the Doc Thorne mine, it was shown to him by the three Mexicans he killed. He would not confess to murder if he had actually found it. If he was mining it in the mid 1860's, it would give him reason to go on Cooley's search party, to lead them away from it if they came close.

Homar

Howdy Homar, Long time no chat..... Im familiar with your story, but were you familiar with the video information I posted?
 

coazon de oro

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Howdy Homar, Long time no chat..... Im familiar with your story, but were you familiar with the video information I posted?

Howdy embrym,

It is good to hear from you, yes I am very familiar with the video information that you posted. In fact it is also found at the ending of the video I posted (151), where Mr. Worst shares his wisdom on the Doc Thorne mine. Mr. Worst wonders why Waltz may have been on the Cooley search party for the Doc Thorne mine. He may chime in here, so my answer to you, was also for Mr. Worst. It is possible that Waltz already knew where the mine was. If he was looking for it after Cooley quit, he got sidetracked by Indians, and was actually looking for his mule, when he found the Mexican miners camp who ended up showing him the mine.

Homar
 

: Michael-Robert.

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Howdy embrym,

It is good to hear from you, yes I am very familiar with the video information that you posted. In fact it is also found at the ending of the video I posted (151), where Mr. Worst shares his wisdom on the Doc Thorne mine. Mr. Worst wonders why Waltz may have been on the Cooley search party for the Doc Thorne mine. He may chime in here, so my answer to you, was also for Mr. Worst. It is possible that Waltz already knew where the mine was. If he was looking for it after Cooley quit, he got sidetracked by Indians, and was actually looking for his mule, when he found the Mexican miners camp who ended up showing him the mine.

Homar

Possible?? Of course it is, and probably likely...
 

Rando Wendt

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