Doc Thorne gold...Is it an easier legend than the LDM

[markmar]

I like to read different versions of a story. Different stories about the same subject, show different mindsets, different concepts adopted by various people and mind changings over the years. I'm sure Dr.Thorne saw that gold placer in a dry canyon bed, but I'm also sure that was not the story he went blinfolded to the residual placer of a gold vein. There were two different Dr Thorne stories about gold in the Superstitions, and for his own reasons, he told John Spring only one of them.
Two stories of Dr Thorne seeing gold in the Superstitions, but which of them could be proven as true? I believe both, but for now I want to stay on the Bark notes account, which IMO describes the region of Waltz mines.
I post in another thread at http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/lost-dutchman-s-mine/617748-dutchman-s-caches-24.html#post6757095 post #351, a modified real picture of the LDMs region which showed the spot of the LDM inclined shaft ( yellow circle ), and the face from Perfil mapa ( orange oval ).

Today I have added a portion to the right ( to the left if looking down to the canyon floor ) from the big picture to see , guess what? ... the " spur " that Dr. Thorne saw and has been mentioned in Bark's notes.

It's realy nice when clues described in real accounts , match the real region of the story.

Have a nice weekend.

 

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[markmar]

Forgot to mention the ledge with the LDM " placer " mine is at the base of the " face " of Perfil mapa. The Juniper that Waltz planted to hide the mine could be seen in the green circle.

 

[somehiker]

Forgot to mention the ledge with the LDM " placer " mine is at the base of the " face " of Perfil mapa. The Juniper that Waltz planted to hide the mine could be seen in the green circle.

Do you have larger photo ?
Like this maybe ?

 

[markmar]

Do you have larger photo ?
Like this maybe ?

Maybe you meant a closer. Much closer, much confused. Many missed to recognize a clue or a landmark because were too close.

 

[somehiker]

Maybe you meant a closer. Much closer, much confused. Many missed to recognize a clue or a landmark because were too close.

I don't find it confusing at all, markmar......easy in fact...... once you're in the right area and on the correct trail.
But I do believe that those like yourself, who assume that Waltz's mine, Doc Thorne's placer, the SM's and Perfil Map etc. all lead to the same place are "much confused".
What, exactly, do you mean by "too close" ?
Something across from the mine like this ?

 

[markmar]

I don't find it confusing at all, markmar......easy in fact...... once you're in the right area and on the correct trail.
But I do believe that those like yourself, who assume that Waltz's mine, Doc Thorne's placer, the SM's and Perfil Map etc. all lead to the same place are "much confused".
What, exactly, do you mean by "too close" ?
Something across from the mine like this ?

Yes, you were in the right area, but like others who went few feet from where they believed to be their spot and haven't been able to find something, you found nothing.
A Greek proverb says: " Many donkeys look the same " , so this means how many clues look the same but are not the accurate mentioned by the original author.
And what is wrong to be all in the same region? Can you prove the contrary?

PS

You are much confused if you believe I'm confused. And you will be still confused until the end of your research.

 

[somehiker]

Yes, you were in the right area, but like others who went few feet from where they believed to be their spot and haven't been able to find something, you found nothing.
A Greek proverb says: " Many donkeys look the same " , so that means many clues look the same but are not the accurate mentioned by the original author.
And what is wrong to be all in the same region? Can you prove the contrary?

PS

You are much confused if you believe I'm confused. And you will be still confused until the end of your research.

I prefer to keep it simple markmar, or at least work with one direction or clue at a time.
Is this confusing....?

 

[markmar]

I prefer to keep it simple markmar, or at least work with one direction or clue at a time.
Is this confusing....?

Very much, in regards to LDM, PSM and Dr Thorne.

 

[somehiker]

And this old foundation is along the trail and about 250 meters away....

 

[markmar]

And this old foundation is along the trail and about 250 meters away....

Now I'm confused. I can't recognize what are you looking for.

 

[somehiker]

Now I'm confused. I can't recognize what are you looking for.

LOL........Waltz told Julia and Rhiney that they would pass by a old adobe foundation near the head of the canyon.
Just a foundation.....no walls. What would you be looking for ?

 

[markmar]

LOL........Waltz told Julia and Rhiney that they would pass by a old adobe foundation near the head of the canyon.
Just a foundation.....no walls. What would you be looking for ?

I believe Waltz said " near the mouth of the canyon ", the lower part where the canyon ends in a valley or in another canyon. I read many times posters to use the " head " of the canyon as the lower part. I believe is a mistake to be used like this.
Yes, there was/is a stone fundation close to the mouth of the canyon. Like I wrote many times, the most important clue that someone should looking for, is the horse/horse head landmark, which unfortunately could be seen only from a single specific spot at a specific time of the day and from about two miles afar.
While approaching the horse, at about half mile afar, someone can recognize the heart embeded on the warrior's landmark face. While approaching the region of the heart and looking around, someone would stumble upon the ruin of the two roofless rooms mentioned in LDM clues, which in reality are the ruins of two bell's towers. They are each about 3'x3' inside and IMO this was the reason Waltz couldn't use them as a shelter.

 

[Matthew Roberts]

Here is an actual real life find of a cache in the Superstitions. No blurry photographs or mystery locations.
The find was made in the 1920's before the Adolph Ruth craze began. The location is the east side of Peters Mesa in a side canyon that feeds down into Peters canyon creek.

Two prospectors discovered the walled up cache hole when a fire burned away brush and cactus that had been covering the entrance. Inside was found several items of interest among them an old Patterson 5 shot revolver, rusted solid but fully loaded and ready to fire.

Above the cache hole was a rock formation in the shape of a man's head, face. The rock formation was obviously the key to relocating the cache for whoever cached those items. It can be sighted from quite a distance away. This is how I believe the Spanish, Mexicans, Waltz and others would have cached their items, not elaborate 100 feet high markers with difficult to follow directions.

 

[somehiker]

View attachment 1936598 View attachment 1936599

Here is an actual real life find of a cache in the Superstitions. No blurry photographs or mystery locations.
The find was made in the 1920's before the Adolph Ruth craze began. The location is the east side of Peters Mesa in a side canyon that feeds down into Peters canyon creek.

Two prospectors discovered the walled up cache hole when a fire burned away brush and cactus that had been covering the entrance. Inside was found several items of interest among them an old Patterson 5 shot revolver, rusted solid but fully loaded and ready to fire.

Above the cache hole was a rock formation in the shape of a man's head, face. The rock formation was obviously the key to relocating the cache for whoever cached those items. It can be sighted from quite a distance away. This is how I believe the Spanish, Mexicans, Waltz and others would have cached their items, not elaborate 100 feet high markers with difficult to follow directions.

Any idea who the cache belonged to Matt ?
Or what the other items were ?

 

[somehiker]

I believe Waltz said " near the mouth of the canyon ", the lower part where the canyon ends in a valley or in another canyon. I read many times posters to use the " head " of the canyon as the lower part. I believe is a mistake to be used like this.
Yes, there was/is a stone fundation close to the mouth of the canyon. Like I wrote many times, the most important clue that someone should looking for, is the horse/horse head landmark, which unfortunately could be seen only from a single specific spot at a specific time of the day and from about two miles afar.
While approaching the horse, at about half mile afar, someone can recognize the heart embeded on the warrior's landmark face. While approaching the region of the heart and looking around, someone would stumble upon the ruin of the two roofless rooms mentioned in LDM clues, which in reality are the ruins of two bell's towers. They are each about 3'x3' inside and IMO this was the reason Waltz couldn't use them as a shelter.

I'm not going to argue the relativity of either term, although a professional topographer might.
Do you remember what else Waltz had to say about the foundation ?

Hearts, warrior landmark, and a horse/horse head that can only be seen under specific conditions ??
Bell towers......where and when did JW mention anything about stuff like that ?
And to who ?

Another photo some may find interesting and related to the rock like a man clue IMO. Not blurry, tho I guess Matt could say I took it in a mystery location.... where I left one trail to follow another.

 

[Matthew Roberts]

Any idea who the cache belonged to Matt ?
Or what the other items were ?

There was nothing to positively identify who may have cached the items.
Some of the other things cached were a home made butcher knife, a sharpening stone, some tools that went with the Patterson revolver, an iron wedge,........
All the items were in a box hidden in the cache. There was no way to date when the cache was made. Everything could easily have been from the 1870 - 1890 era.

 

[wrmickel1]

There was nothing to positively identify who may have cached the items.
Some of the other things cached were a home made butcher knife, a sharpening stone, some tools that went with the Patterson revolver, an iron wedge,........
All the items were in a box hidden in the cache. There was no way to date when the cache was made. Everything could easily have been from the 1870 - 1890 era.

Interesting Matt

The person who claimed he found it didn't happen to be from Texas, Just wondering!

And no to a regular guy making monumental large monuments to cache a treasure! Not even a guy named Travis would do that or have the means to do so,

Babymick1

 

[somehiker]

There was nothing to positively identify who may have cached the items.
Some of the other things cached were a home made butcher knife, a sharpening stone, some tools that went with the Patterson revolver, an iron wedge,........
All the items were in a box hidden in the cache. There was no way to date when the cache was made. Everything could easily have been from the 1870 - 1890 era.

!870-1890 does fall within JW's timeline. Since the cache included an iron wedge,...... and other mining tools ? I will assume the finder, as well as yourself believe that it may have been left by old Jake himself.
While I haven't spent very much of my time out there in search of Waltz's mine, on those few days where I have done some hiking out that way, that general area is where I would expect the mine to be found someday.
Here's 3 shots I got on one of my more recent hikes.....







The photos I posted earlier in the thread were also taken out that way.

 

[Idahodutch]

Yes, you were in the right area, but like others who went few feet from where they believed to be their spot and haven't been able to find something, you found nothing.
A Greek proverb says: " Many donkeys look the same " , so this means how many clues look the same but are not the accurate mentioned by the original author.
And what is wrong to be all in the same region? Can you prove the contrary?

PS

You are much confused if you believe I'm confused. And you will be still confused until the end of your research.

Markmar,
I?m not somehiker, but you arrogance is something else.
You were shown proof that your spot is not home to all, but you choose to ignore clues that don?t fit your spot.
The 4 peaks clue is real, I have seen it. But because it does not fit your spot, you brush it off.

According to Waltz, you are barking up the wrong tree.

 

[markmar]

Markmar,
I?m not somehiker, but you arrogance is something else.
You were shown proof that your spot is not home to all, but you choose to ignore clues that don?t fit your spot.
The 4 peaks clue is real, I have seen it. But because it does not fit your spot, you brush it off.

According to Waltz, you are barking up the wrong tree.

Idahodutch

I'm not barking. I'm a lion.