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Thread: Doc Thorne gold...Is it an easier legend than the LDM

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  1. #16
    us
    Dec 2017
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    2607 times
    Russ,

    I get where people are coming from, that it sounds more believable than some of the later stories. But I don't think this one is much more accurate. The whole thing is an obvious yarn told by a talented writer and AZ pioneer. None of it makes sense when compared to actual history. Let's just start with a man supposedly held for 6-7 years by the "Apache" (who seem to roam with impunity through incredibly hostile territory belonging to several groups who hated them, but that's another matter). If this captivity really occurred, it would be heavily documented. It's not.

    Then take into account he supposedly walks over to the Navajo side after the strange "trade turned battle" story. Problem is, any Navajos left in the mid '60's would have been starving, hiding, and living off the land, trying not to attract attention to themselves. If any of these small bands had 800 sheep (they didn't), they would have been easily found, and unfortunately but most likely killed on sight by Americans and Apache alike. The Apache/Navajo trade/fight story just doesn't hold water. The vast majority of the Navajos had already been hunted down and marched to Bosque Redondo/Ft. Sumner.

    Not much of the rest of the story makes much sense either.

    It is what it is, if people want to believe these yarns, that's their business. I don't have any interest in arguing the points, but you asked so there it is. Probably shouldn't have said anything about it in the first place

  2. #17
    us
    Director of Research, Acquisitions, Archives and Library, Superstition Mountain Historical Society,and one of its founders, Member of Arizona First Families, Westerners, Arizona Historical Society, Central Arizona Museum Association and the Dons Club

    Oct 2013
    Tempe, Arizona
    eyeball it
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    John Spring was a well educated person. He was a teacher and prided himself on relating the adventures he had in the west as truly as possible and not embellishing them. When he interviewed Thorn, Thorn had no reason not to tell Spring about what rally happened to him during his captative with the Indians. If you study the contemporary accounts of mining in Cherry Creek and the surrounding Sierra Anchas Mountains, I think you will be surprised at the mining activity that took place. Cordially, Gregory E. Davis

  3. #18
    us
    Sep 2019
    Idaho
    Whites MXT
    1,285
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    LDM
    Jim,
    I did ask, and am glad you laid it on the table. Those sorts of details are good to look at, and in this case, seem to indicate that maybe a little spice was added.

    Greg,
    I like that you also laid some stuff on the table.

    I don?t know near as much as either of you guys on Dr. Thorne story, and glad you both shared

    Edit: For me, I guess it is easier to give an ear to a personal account, if it does not clash with other historical knowns. Hard to dismiss though too. We may never know
    Last edited by Idahodutch; Jun 05, 2021 at 11:22 AM.

  4. #19

    Nov 2015
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    All Types Of Treasure Hunting
    Quote Originally Posted by Idahodutch View Post
    Jim,
    I did ask, and am glad you laid it on the table. Those sorts of details are good to look at, and in this case, seem to indicate that maybe a little spice was added.

    Greg,
    I like that you also laid some stuff on the table.

    I don?t know near as much as either of you guys on Dr. Thorne story, and glad you both shared

    Edit: For me, I guess it is easier to give an ear to a personal account, if it does not clash with other historical knowns. Hard to dismiss though too. We may never know
    Got the book today. It's def a dif read than the story that most know. Why I don't follow clues, just maps. If clues fit than cool. Def a lot of cool stuff in the book to peruse while waiting for my trip tho. Def made me rethink where thorns mine could be. Def sounds more east than the main sup wilderness area.

  5. #20

    Nov 2015
    466
    434 times
    All Types Of Treasure Hunting
    Quote Originally Posted by Gregory E. Davis View Post
    John Spring was a well educated person. He was a teacher and prided himself on relating the adventures he had in the west as truly as possible and not embellishing them. When he interviewed Thorn, Thorn had no reason not to tell Spring about what rally happened to him during his captative with the Indians. If you study the contemporary accounts of mining in Cherry Creek and the surrounding Sierra Anchas Mountains, I think you will be surprised at the mining activity that took place. Cordially, Gregory E. Davis
    Always thought the McFadden mntn is a place worth exploring for a map I've been trying to solve. Aztec peak def had a purpose back in the day as a perfect look out and strong hold for safe travel from the Sups to Nm. A look from Aztec peak north would prob answer some my theories. Who know if they will ever get there tho.

  6. #21
    gr
    Oct 2012
    White's Spectrum XLT
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    I like to read different versions of a story. Different stories about the same subject, show different mindsets, different concepts adopted by various people and mind changings over the years. I'm sure Dr.Thorne saw that gold placer in a dry canyon bed, but I'm also sure that was not the story he went blinfolded to the residual placer of a gold vein. There were two different Dr Thorne stories about gold in the Superstitions, and for his own reasons, he told John Spring only one of them.
    Two stories of Dr Thorne seeing gold in the Superstitions, but which of them could be proven as true? I believe both, but for now I want to stay on the Bark notes account, which IMO describes the region of Waltz mines.
    I post in another thread at Dutchman's Caches post #351, a modified real picture of the LDMs region which showed the spot of the LDM inclined shaft ( yellow circle ), and the face from Perfil mapa ( orange oval ).



    Today I have added a portion to the right ( to the left if looking down to the canyon floor ) from the big picture to see , guess what? ... the " spur " that Dr. Thorne saw and has been mentioned in Bark's notes.



    It's realy nice when clues described in real accounts , match the real region of the story.

    Have a nice weekend.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version. 

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    Marius

    " There are many doors in and out of the mnts,but none so hidden as the ones in front of you.
    Do you possess the knowledge of the spirit to let you enter them? " NP




  7. #22
    gr
    Oct 2012
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    Forgot to mention the ledge with the LDM " placer " mine is at the base of the " face " of Perfil mapa. The Juniper that Waltz planted to hide the mine could be seen in the green circle.

    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version. 

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    Marius

    " There are many doors in and out of the mnts,but none so hidden as the ones in front of you.
    Do you possess the knowledge of the spirit to let you enter them? " NP




  8. #23
    ca
    May 2007
    4,361
    6421 times
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    Quote Originally Posted by markmar View Post
    Forgot to mention the ledge with the LDM " placer " mine is at the base of the " face " of Perfil mapa. The Juniper that Waltz planted to hide the mine could be seen in the green circle.

    Do you have larger photo ?
    Like this maybe ?

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Dirt1955 likes this.
    Hell,you ain't never too old to look!

  9. #24
    gr
    Oct 2012
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    Quote Originally Posted by somehiker View Post
    Do you have larger photo ?
    Like this maybe ?

    Maybe you meant a closer. Much closer, much confused. Many missed to recognize a clue or a landmark because were too close.
    Marius

    " There are many doors in and out of the mnts,but none so hidden as the ones in front of you.
    Do you possess the knowledge of the spirit to let you enter them? " NP




  10. #25
    ca
    May 2007
    4,361
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    Quote Originally Posted by markmar View Post
    Maybe you meant a closer. Much closer, much confused. Many missed to recognize a clue or a landmark because were too close.
    I don't find it confusing at all, markmar......easy in fact...... once you're in the right area and on the correct trail.
    But I do believe that those like yourself, who assume that Waltz's mine, Doc Thorne's placer, the SM's and Perfil Map etc. all lead to the same place are "much confused".
    What, exactly, do you mean by "too close" ?
    Something across from the mine like this ?

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Idahodutch likes this.
    Hell,you ain't never too old to look!

  11. #26
    gr
    Oct 2012
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    Quote Originally Posted by somehiker View Post
    I don't find it confusing at all, markmar......easy in fact...... once you're in the right area and on the correct trail.
    But I do believe that those like yourself, who assume that Waltz's mine, Doc Thorne's placer, the SM's and Perfil Map etc. all lead to the same place are "much confused".
    What, exactly, do you mean by "too close" ?
    Something across from the mine like this ?

    Yes, you were in the right area, but like others who went few feet from where they believed to be their spot and haven't been able to find something, you found nothing.
    A Greek proverb says: " Many donkeys look the same " , so this means how many clues look the same but are not the accurate mentioned by the original author.
    And what is wrong to be all in the same region? Can you prove the contrary?

    PS

    You are much confused if you believe I'm confused. And you will be still confused until the end of your research.
    Last edited by markmar; Jul 11, 2021 at 10:32 AM.
    Marius

    " There are many doors in and out of the mnts,but none so hidden as the ones in front of you.
    Do you possess the knowledge of the spirit to let you enter them? " NP




  12. #27
    ca
    May 2007
    4,361
    6421 times
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    Quote Originally Posted by markmar View Post
    Yes, you were in the right area, but like others who went few feet from where they believed to be their spot and haven't been able to find something, you found nothing.
    A Greek proverb says: " Many donkeys look the same " , so that means many clues look the same but are not the accurate mentioned by the original author.
    And what is wrong to be all in the same region? Can you prove the contrary?

    PS

    You are much confused if you believe I'm confused. And you will be still confused until the end of your research.
    I prefer to keep it simple markmar, or at least work with one direction or clue at a time.
    Is this confusing....?

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Hell,you ain't never too old to look!

  13. #28
    gr
    Oct 2012
    White's Spectrum XLT
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    Quote Originally Posted by somehiker View Post
    I prefer to keep it simple markmar, or at least work with one direction or clue at a time.
    Is this confusing....?



    Very much, in regards to LDM, PSM and Dr Thorne.
    Marius

    " There are many doors in and out of the mnts,but none so hidden as the ones in front of you.
    Do you possess the knowledge of the spirit to let you enter them? " NP




  14. #29
    ca
    May 2007
    4,361
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    And this old foundation is along the trail and about 250 meters away....

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Hell,you ain't never too old to look!

  15. #30
    gr
    Oct 2012
    White's Spectrum XLT
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    Quote Originally Posted by somehiker View Post
    And this old foundation is along the trail and about 250 meters away....

    Now I'm confused. I can't recognize what are you looking for.
    Marius

    " There are many doors in and out of the mnts,but none so hidden as the ones in front of you.
    Do you possess the knowledge of the spirit to let you enter them? " NP




 

 
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