Doc Thorne gold...Is it an easier legend than the LDM

[superstitionsexplorer]

The Lost Dutchman Mine has had many false experts, and clues...Is the simple story of Doc Thorne easier? Fewer stories mean more truth. The story of Doc Thorne is easier to follow and has less maps. So maybe if we could find historical evidence of this we could all be closer to an answer. We should also look into the lost Dragoon pistols. There has only been one story on those lost Dragoon pistols...and I am looking for historical evidence...If we cannot find the Lost Dutchman Gold mine, maybe with military records, we can find those lost crate of pistols...Lets find them

 

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[GoDeep]

No, both are equal, as both fall under the category "Legend". Though fun to research as often they have sprinkles of truth in them (places, times, names), the larger claim that makes a legend legendary (usually some sort of lost immense wealth) is at best, wishful thinking and at worst, the stuff of imagination.

I'm a real hoot at parties as you can imagine....

leg​end | \ ˈle-jənd \ Noun

1a: a story coming down from the past
especially : one popularly regarded as historical although not verifiable
b: a popular myth

 

[Idahodutch]

Superstition explorer,
Welcome to Treasurenet forums

So the thread question ....
that is an interesting question. If I remember the story right, Doc Thorne was taken blindfolded to to a pile of gold, and told he could take as much as he could carry.
A one time gift.

Even if someone could find the spot where that gift was made, was it only a place of transaction?
Could have been a mule load left from the Peralta massacre .... could be lots of explanations.
But this is a personal decision for you to make. Maybe this one is calling you.

Why do people choose what they choose?
Could go nuts trying to figure that one

 

[markmar]

IMHO, and from the description of the site told by Doc Thorne, the gold placer from which he took the gold, was what Waltz found later as the residual placer of a gold vein in quartz outcroping. Is what we know as the LDM " Placer ", which Waltz stated had more gold than quartz.

Read the Bark notes on Doc Thorne story and you will understand where that rich deposit was located.

Bark Notes Page 36 (Thomas Probert published version):
Dr. Thorne said as the Indians unblindfolded his eyes at the mine -

"We went carefully down the trail on the side of the canyon and when we got down onto a little flat, there was an inclined pit. Quite a lot of work had been done, and the gold could be seen lying around in the quartz that had been brought up out of the pit, and evidently discarded as not being rich enough."

"I was standing on the edge of a deep and very steep canyon, high up. To my left was a spur and on the spur was a light-colored ruin of an old stone corral - not an Indian ruin, but very old and it looked as though it was Aztec.

...."We started back, but they did not blindfold me until we got to the horses. In the meantime, we walked through a hole or cave, and it had a lot of old Mexican mining tools such as screens, etc. Horses could not go through."

 

[Gregory E. Davis]

Good morning gentlemen: May I suggest to all those who are interested in the Doc. Thorne Story, that you read the book, "John Spring's Arizona" by A.M. Gustafson, Pages 278 to 284. This is an interview with Abram Thorne, by John Spring where Thorne relates the REAL story. Cordially, Gregory E. Davis

 

[Doc4261]

Good morning gentlemen: May I suggest to all those who are interested in the Doc. Thorne Story, that you read the book, "John Spring's Arizona" by A.M. Gustafson, Pages 278 to 284. This is an interview with Abram Thorne, by John Spring where Thorne relates the REAL story. Cordially, Gregory E. Davis

Not bad, 3.99 used on Amazon. Got mine ordered. Something fun to read while waiting for my trip back down to AZ. Thanks Mr. Davis.

 

[PotBelly Jim]

Here's the original Doc Thorne gold story by Spring, that Greg referred to above.

View attachment Spring Doc Thorne.pdf

 

[Idahodutch]

Jim,
Thank you for posting the story. It was different than expected, but good to read.
You get a gold star for that.

Have to laugh, where did the other whoppers come from?

 

[Idahodutch]

I particularly liked the very red hills

 

[azdave35]

Jim,
Thank you for posting the story. It was different than expected, but good to read.
You get a gold star for that.

Have to laugh, where did the other whoppers come from?

same place the ldm clues came from...a bar down on Washington street

 

[somehiker]

same place the ldm clues came from...a bar down on Washington street

This version is certainly more credible than the one about Thorne being blindfolded and taken to the mine that some folks believe was the LDM. Also puts to rest the part where he supposedly removed his long johns so that he could fill them with gold ore......

 

[azdave35]

This version is certainly more credible than the one about Thorne being blindfolded and taken to the mine that some folks believe was the LDM. Also puts to rest the part where he supposedly removed his long johns so that he could fill them with gold ore......

exactly

 

[Gregory E. Davis]

You only have to look so far at the Newspaper Men who were selling papers with stories of Lost Gold and the Hack Writers who picked up the stories without researching the real facts. As a famous writer once said, "Don's confuse me with the facts, my mind is already made up. No need to kill a good story with facts". Cordially, Gregory E. Davis

 

[PotBelly Jim]

Jim,
Thank you for posting the story. It was different than expected, but good to read.
You get a gold star for that.

Have to laugh, where did the other whoppers come from?

IMO, this one's a whopper too.

The location makes no sense for the times.

Also, if you knew where there was gold that could just be picked up off the ground, would you reveal the location?

IMO, it most likely happened on Tonto or Cherry Creek, and the mountain range to the east was the Sierra Anchas. Just looking at what was happening in the area at the time.

 

[Idahodutch]

IMO, this one's a whopper too.

The location makes no sense for the times.

Also, if you knew where there was gold that could just be picked up off the ground, would you reveal the location?

IMO, it most likely happened on Tonto or Cherry Creek, and the mountain range to the east was the Sierra Anchas. Just looking at what was happening in the area at the time.

Jim,
Of the different versions that I have read or heard, this sounds like maybe a little spice, but not much, and perhaps was on part of Dr. Thorne.
I wonder if that was extent of interview? My first thoughts were what else was talked about or elaborated about. Maybe that is all there is to the story....

Those were my first thoughts, but you sound like you have issue with location?
He really did not say where except south of Mogollon Rim, and maybe near the Salt, and some very red hills ... but that all sounded vague. If he knew where he was, I think he would have found his way back.... but maybe not.

Not tons of traffic lately, if you feel like expounding some, i would read it
Russ

 

[PotBelly Jim]

Russ,

I get where people are coming from, that it sounds more believable than some of the later stories. But I don't think this one is much more accurate. The whole thing is an obvious yarn told by a talented writer and AZ pioneer. None of it makes sense when compared to actual history. Let's just start with a man supposedly held for 6-7 years by the "Apache" (who seem to roam with impunity through incredibly hostile territory belonging to several groups who hated them, but that's another matter). If this captivity really occurred, it would be heavily documented. It's not.

Then take into account he supposedly walks over to the Navajo side after the strange "trade turned battle" story. Problem is, any Navajos left in the mid '60's would have been starving, hiding, and living off the land, trying not to attract attention to themselves. If any of these small bands had 800 sheep (they didn't), they would have been easily found, and unfortunately but most likely killed on sight by Americans and Apache alike. The Apache/Navajo trade/fight story just doesn't hold water. The vast majority of the Navajos had already been hunted down and marched to Bosque Redondo/Ft. Sumner.

Not much of the rest of the story makes much sense either.

It is what it is, if people want to believe these yarns, that's their business. I don't have any interest in arguing the points, but you asked so there it is. Probably shouldn't have said anything about it in the first place

 

[Gregory E. Davis]

John Spring was a well educated person. He was a teacher and prided himself on relating the adventures he had in the west as truly as possible and not embellishing them. When he interviewed Thorn, Thorn had no reason not to tell Spring about what rally happened to him during his captative with the Indians. If you study the contemporary accounts of mining in Cherry Creek and the surrounding Sierra Anchas Mountains, I think you will be surprised at the mining activity that took place. Cordially, Gregory E. Davis

 

[Idahodutch]

Jim,
I did ask, and am glad you laid it on the table. Those sorts of details are good to look at, and in this case, seem to indicate that maybe a little spice was added.

Greg,
I like that you also laid some stuff on the table.

I don?t know near as much as either of you guys on Dr. Thorne story, and glad you both shared

Edit: For me, I guess it is easier to give an ear to a personal account, if it does not clash with other historical knowns. Hard to dismiss though too. We may never know

 

[Doc4261]

Jim,
I did ask, and am glad you laid it on the table. Those sorts of details are good to look at, and in this case, seem to indicate that maybe a little spice was added.

Greg,
I like that you also laid some stuff on the table.

I don?t know near as much as either of you guys on Dr. Thorne story, and glad you both shared

Edit: For me, I guess it is easier to give an ear to a personal account, if it does not clash with other historical knowns. Hard to dismiss though too. We may never know

Got the book today. It's def a dif read than the story that most know. Why I don't follow clues, just maps. If clues fit than cool. Def a lot of cool stuff in the book to peruse while waiting for my trip tho. Def made me rethink where thorns mine could be. Def sounds more east than the main sup wilderness area.

 

[Doc4261]

John Spring was a well educated person. He was a teacher and prided himself on relating the adventures he had in the west as truly as possible and not embellishing them. When he interviewed Thorn, Thorn had no reason not to tell Spring about what rally happened to him during his captative with the Indians. If you study the contemporary accounts of mining in Cherry Creek and the surrounding Sierra Anchas Mountains, I think you will be surprised at the mining activity that took place. Cordially, Gregory E. Davis

Always thought the McFadden mntn is a place worth exploring for a map I've been trying to solve. Aztec peak def had a purpose back in the day as a perfect look out and strong hold for safe travel from the Sups to Nm. A look from Aztec peak north would prob answer some my theories. Who know if they will ever get there tho.