Jacob Waltz Sister in Germany

[BlackLine]

I know the Wells Fargo story and the deathbed confession and I wonder why no one knows the name of Jacob Waltz's sister. I mean ... if Dick got the clues to secure his sister in Germany, where did he write the address down? There should be a slip of paper with Jakob Waltz's or Dick Holmes handwriting. If the name and address were known, it would be easy for me to find out whether gold ever made it to Germany.

I hope someone can shed light on the dark.

 

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[Matthew Roberts]

It is believed by some Waltz sister had came to America and was living somewhere at or near Lawrence, Kansas or Kansas City which is only about 20 miles east of Lawrence. Steve Creager was researching her and had found some evidence which may have confirmed Waltz sister. Steve passed away suddenly before he finished his research but did write a detailed research paper on the possible sister and German immigration to Missouri and Kansas for the Superstition Museum Journal and archives.

 

[Matthew Roberts]

I know the Wells Fargo story and the deathbed confession and I wonder why no one knows the name of Jacob Waltz's sister. I mean ... if Dick got the clues to secure his sister in Germany, where did he write the address down? There should be a slip of paper with Jakob Waltz's or Dick Holmes handwriting. If the name and address were known, it would be easy for me to find out whether gold ever made it to Germany.

I hope someone can shed light on the dark.

BackLine,

When Waltz died in 1891 there were any number of stores in Phoenix who bought gold ore and gave you cash which could easily be converted to a bank draft which could be sent, transferred, anywhere. Phoenix was a quite modern town by 1891. Electricity came to Phoenix that same year. There was no need to send gold ore, banks could even wire funds by that time. Holmes may well have had Waltz sisters name and address but since the mine was never found it was lost to time or forgotten.

 

[Idahodutch]

BackLine,

When Waltz died in 1891 there were any number of stores in Phoenix who bought gold ore and gave you cash which could easily be converted to a bank draft which could be sent, transferred, anywhere. Phoenix was a quite modern town by 1891. Electricity came to Phoenix that same year. There was no need to send gold ore, banks could even wire funds by that time. Holmes may well have had Waltz sisters name and address but since the mine was never found it was lost to time or forgotten.

Maybe when Waltz was allegedly shipping gold, the development of Phoenix had not gotten quite to the 1891 status?
Seems risky, but the stuff I read (probably 3rd or 4th hand at best) indicated actual shipping of gold, to San Francisco I think? Maybe on past that, but I don?t recall enough to cite with any certainty.
I do recall Well Fargo as part of that story line.

I never personally researched it, nor remember detailed information from someone who did.
If the information actually exists, it would be very interesting to hear the details

The rumor was that quite a large amount was shipped to his sister .... gold or $ .... I did not get the details or if it was more than one time, and maybe it was not provided

 

[somehiker]

Maybe when Waltz was allegedly shipping gold, the development of Phoenix had not gotten quite to the 1891 status?
Seems risky, but the stuff I read (probably 3rd or 4th hand at best) indicated actual shipping of gold, to San Francisco I think? Maybe on past that, but I don?t recall enough to cite with any certainty.
I do recall Well Fargo as part of that story line.

I never personally researched it, nor remember detailed information from someone who did.
If the information actually exists, it would be very interesting to hear the details

The rumor was that quite a large amount was shipped to his sister .... gold or $ .... I did not get the details or if it was more than one time, and maybe it was not provided

My recollection is that he shipped the large amount of ore to a refiner in Sanfran. Possibly because he could get a better price and/or the SF mint was the only place that would deal in bigger volumes at the time. They would have in turn issued a bank draft to Waltz which he would have forwarded to his sister.
Does that make sense ?

 

[Idahodutch]

My recollection is that he shipped the large amount of ore to a refiner in Sanfran. Possibly because he could get a better price and/or the SF mint was the only place that would deal in bigger volumes at the time. They would have in turn issued a bank draft to Waltz which he would have forwarded to his sister.
Does that make sense ?

Yes it does. The bigger volumes ... not lots of choices.
I just could not remember if that was how that went.

Do you recall the amounts ?
My recollection was that it was related in terms of $, not weight ...

For some reason, I seem to recall it was Germany that he was sending the money, ... Could easily have that wrong though.

 

[BlackLine]

It is believed by some Waltz sister had came to America and was living somewhere at or near Lawrence, Kansas or Kansas City which is only about 20 miles east of Lawrence. Steve Creager was researching her and had found some evidence which may have confirmed Waltz sister. Steve passed away suddenly before he finished his research but did write a detailed research paper on the possible sister and German immigration to Missouri and Kansas for the Superstition Museum Journal and archives.

Thank you for your comments. According to my research, the first bank in Phoenix (National Bank) was established in 1878 with a capitalization of 200,000 US dollars.
(Source: https://www.phoenix.gov/pio/city-publications/city-history)
It is believed that Jakob Waltz found the mine in the 1870s. In my opinion it is relatively unlikely that he waited until 1878 to send money to his sister by bank transfer. Since the only bank in Phoenix is the National Bank, one can assume that records of international transfers from Jakob Waltz can be found in the archives, right?

Has this ever been investigated?

 

[azdave35]

Thank you for your comments. According to my research, the first bank in Phoenix (National Bank) was established in 1878 with a capitalization of 200,000 US dollars.
(Source: https://www.phoenix.gov/pio/city-publications/city-history)
It is believed that Jakob Waltz found the mine in the 1870s. In my opinion it is relatively unlikely that he waited until 1878 to send money to his sister by bank transfer. Since the only bank in Phoenix is the National Bank, one can assume that records of international transfers from Jakob Waltz can be found in the archives, right?

Has this ever been investigated?

yes this have been investigated..many times..to my knowledge nobody has ever found any solid evidence that waltz ever sent any money to germany... no one has proved that he ever sold or shipped any gold anywhere

 

[Matthew Roberts]

yes this have been investigated..many times..to my knowledge nobody has ever found any solid evidence that waltz ever sent any money to germany... no one has proved that he ever sold or shipped any gold anywhere

Dave,

You are correct, all research so far has failed to show Waltz ever shipped any gold ore. But that doesn't mean Waltz didn't sell gold ore and send money in the form of a check, draft or transfer. This is what Steve Creager was researching when he passed away. Steve was following a draft of some sort Waltz allegedly sent to a National Bank in Kansas. Who that money was destined for was not clear because the draft was a 3 part paperwork and only one part survived. I believe the draft was dated 1888 but am not certain.

 

[BlackLine]

Who was steve creager? If someone spent so much time on this legend i and everyone else want to know more about him.

 

[Matthew Roberts]

Who was steve creager? If someone spent so much time on this legend i and everyone else want to know more about him.

Steve was well known throughout the entire Dutchman community. He was not only in my opinion the best researcher he was also a boots on the ground dutch hunter who spent considerable time in the Superstitions in all conditions and weather. Steve wrote several published articles on dutchman subjects for the Superstition Mountain Historical Society Journal and various Arizona publications. He and Peter Esposito were partners in their dutch hunting efforts and with Peter founded and ran a dutchman forum that for several years put all other online forums to shame including the one you are reading now. Steve had friends and contacts all over the US and in Germany. His was a big loss for the dutchman community.

 

[BlackLine]

Steve Creager - Lost Dutchman Goldmine

Never heard this name before, but i am after 6 years and some trips to the mountains still new at that topic. Ill do my very best, but i will not ever have this knowlegde like you and others here on this forum have.

 

[Idahodutch]

Dave,

You are correct, all research so far has failed to show Waltz ever shipped any gold ore. But that doesn't mean Waltz didn't sell gold ore and send money in the form of a check, draft or transfer. This is what Steve Creager was researching when he passed away. Steve was following a draft of some sort Waltz allegedly sent to a National Bank in Kansas. Who that money was destined for was not clear because the draft was a 3 part paperwork and only one part survived. I believe the draft was dated 1888 but am not certain.

Matthew,
The reason I was asking about the amount Waltz was to have sent to his sister .... the amount was quite high as in $800,000.
That would equate to ~ 2,700 pounds of actual gold.
Or around $80 million today.

If this was to have been all at one shot or over time, I do not know.
But if the dollar amount was correct, it was a substantial amount.

I can understand why supposedly Wells Fargo was involved.

 

[Matthew Roberts]

Matthew,
The reason I was asking about the amount Waltz was to have sent to his sister .... the amount was quite high as in $800,000.
That would equate to ~ 2,700 pounds of actual gold.
Or around $80 million today.

If this was to have been all at one shot or over time, I do not know.
But if the dollar amount was correct, it was a substantial amount.

I can understand why supposedly Wells Fargo was involved.

There are 10 different dutchman books that will quote you 10 different amounts of gold Waltz shipped to San Francisco or 10 other places.

It's crazy to try and select any one of them because there just wasn't any record that anyone could find.

The way to go about this is the way Steve did it. The transfer draft Waltz sent to Kansas was for 7,000 dollars. In 1888 that equated to 350 ounces of pure gold at 20 dollars an ounce the going price at the time. That would be 198,500 dollars in today's money.

An assayer probably figured the total gold content from the ore Waltz had. Waltz then sold the gold to Wells Fargo or any of a dozen gold buyers in Phoenix and took the cash and obtained a draft at the Phoenix National Bank. Beginning and end of story.

No one knows how much total ore Waltz ever had and if he sold it all at one time or not.

The Wells Fargo stories are rabbit holes and my advice to you is don't go down any of them.

 

[Idahodutch]

There are 10 different dutchman books that will quote you 10 different amounts of gold Waltz shipped to San Francisco or 10 other places.

It's crazy to try and select any one of them because there just wasn't any record that anyone could find.

The way to go about this is the way Steve did it. The transfer draft Waltz sent to Kansas was for 7,000 dollars. In 1888 that equated to 350 ounces of pure gold at 20 dollars an ounce the going price at the time.

An assayer probably figured the total gold content from the ore Waltz had. Waltz then sold the gold to Wells Fargo or any of a dozen gold buyers in Phoenix and took the cash and obtained a draft at the Phoenix National Bank. Beginning and end of story.

No one knows how much total ore Waltz ever had and if he sold it all at one time or not.

The Wells Fargo stories are rabbit holes and my advice to you is don't go down any of them.

Thanks Matthew,
I had to smile. I did not know I was poking a hornets nest.
I had only heard part of one of the 10 versions.... not knowing there were more.

Thanks again for sharing
Idahodutch

 

[Idahodutch]

Matthew,
You sound as if you have had your fair share of dealing with rabbit holes ...
I like your advice (smiling)

 

[Ponteach]

The way to go about this is the way Steve did it. The transfer draft Waltz sent to Kansas was for 7,000 dollars. In 1888 that equated to 350 ounces of pure gold at 20 dollars an ounce the going price at the time. That would be 198,500 dollars in today's money.

to me 350 ounces at today prices in us. $1876.87 = todays money $656,904.50 , that was a lot but a lot of money at that time, so if Holmes got $4000 or something from under the bed and it was about 50 pounds of raw rocks, how many pounds raw rocks would equal $7000.00 in 1888 in pure gold, the answer would say how much Waltz was able to carry in one trip, and even say how much he did put in his dug holes caches,