A "Rock Cabin" and an Old Mine

[skyhawk1251]

It lies within an imaginary circle whose diameter is not more than five miles and whose center is marked by the Weaver's Needle, a prominent and fantastic pinnacle of volcanic tufa that rises to a height of 2500 feet among a confusion of lesser peaks and mountainous masses of basaltic rock, ...
the first gorge on the south side, from the west end of the range they found, as he had told them, a monumented trail which led them northward over a lofty ridge; thence downward past Sombrero Butte into a long canyon running north, and finally to a tributary canyon very deep and rocky, and densely wooded with a continuous thicket of scrub oak.

The great clew for which all the search is now being made is a rock cabin in a cave, which, according to Old Yoccup's story, is directly across the canyon from the mine, and not more than 200 feet from it. It was here that the two Germans lived while they worked the mine. P.C. Bicknell

This GE image shows a "rock cabin" and a mine on opposite slopes of a ravine located east of Boulder Canyon, and north of the canyon's junction with Needle Canyon. The viewpoint of the GE image is looking up the ravine to the east from directly overhead. The "rock cabin" is on the south ridge of the ravine. The mine is on the northern slope of the ravine. The mine is marked by a narrow terrace/ledge of level ground that is retained by a stacked-stone wall. A few rocks have fallen down the slope and now rest on the terrace/ledge. No dump of waste material from the mine is clearly visible, which indicates that very little waste was taken out of the mine, or that the waste material was widely scattered down the slope. There could be some disturbed ground directly below the mine, but that fact is far from certain. There are no clearly defined foot trails visible in the GE image. This indicates to me, based on mining trails I've seen in Mohave County, AZ, that the mine is very old -- much older than 100 years.

I've measured the line-of-sight distance from the "rock cabin" to the mine, as shown by the white line. That distance is 183 feet. The easiest route to the mine from Boulder Canyon would be by passing the mouth of the ravine, going south, then by turning about and ascending to the ravine's south ridge. Once on the south ridge, the "rock cabin" is passed, heading east to the high end of the ravine. A long traverse/switchback is then made to the north slope of the ravine and down slightly to the mine. The bottom of the ravine is too choked with boulders and vegetation for a more direct route to its high end.

The green box encloses what looks like a terraced depression. There are other possible indications of human activity at this location, but they are not of primary importance, so I won't discuss them in this post.

 

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[azdave35]

This GE image shows a "rock cabin" and a mine on opposite slopes of a ravine located east of Boulder Canyon, and north of the canyon's junction with Needle Canyon. The viewpoint of the GE image is looking up the ravine to the east from directly overhead. The "rock cabin" is on the south ridge of the ravine. The mine is on the northern slope of the ravine. The mine is marked by a narrow terrace/ledge of level ground that is retained by a stacked-stone wall. A few rocks have fallen down the slope and now rest on the terrace/ledge. No dump of waste material from the mine is clearly visible, which indicates that very little waste was taken out of the mine, or that the waste material was widely scattered down the slope. There could be some disturbed ground directly below the mine, but that fact is far from certain. There are no clearly defined foot trails visible in the GE image. This indicates to me, based on mining trails I've seen in Mohave County, AZ, that the mine is very old -- much older than 100 years.

I've measured the line-of-sight distance from the "rock cabin" to the mine, as shown by the white line. That distance is 183 feet. The easiest route to the mine from Boulder Canyon would be by passing the mouth of the ravine, going south, then by turning about and ascending to the ravine's south ridge. Once on the south ridge, the "rock cabin" is passed, heading east to the high end of the ravine. A long traverse/switchback is then made to the north slope of the ravine and down slightly to the mine. The bottom of the ravine is too choked with boulders and vegetation for a more direct route to its high end.

The green box encloses what looks like a terraced depression. There are other possible indications of human activity at this location, but they are not of primary importance, so I won't discuss them in this post.

i wish i knew where you guys are getting the glasses you wear....i'd sure like to get me a pair.......

 

[somehiker]

" The great clew for which all the search is now being made is a rock cabin in a cave, which, according to Old Yoccup's story, is directly across the canyon from the mine, and not more than 200 feet from it. It was here that the two Germans lived while they worked the mine. P.C. Bicknell "

...." a rock cabin in a cave "....

Not to be picky, but does GE have a pair of x-ray glasses you guys can use ??
Because that's what you would need in order to "see" a clue like that on any sat. image.

 

[skyhawk1251]

I would classify most of you as "skeptics" concerning your opinions about the LDM. I would not put most of you in the category of "cynics." A cynic would refuse to believe that the LDM exists even if he was led to a hole in the ground, shown a rich vein, and a piece of LDM ore was taken from the vein and placed in his hand. If the same thing was done to a skeptic, he would probably say, "I do believe, I do believe!"

I am a skeptic, and I'd hope that everyone who is active in this subforum is the same. I won't believe the "rock cabin" is actually there until I can reach out and touch it with my hand. I won't believe the "old mine" is actually there until I see it and walk onto the ledge. GE images are just "teasers" that can lead to new and exciting adventures. In this case, a new adventure is on my to-do list, and it has top priority. Be very patient and maybe we could all be amazed.

GE is a useful tool, but it does not always show things as they really are. Its reliability in this case looks very good -- good enough to show the old foundation at the Indian Paint Mine, for example, and it has never failed revealing old mine sites in the Cerbat Mountains. I always use GE before grabbing my boots and backpack.

 

[somehiker]

I would classify most of you as "skeptics" concerning your opinions about the LDM. I would not put most of you in the category of "cynics." A cynic would refuse to believe that the LDM exists even if he was led to a hole in the ground, shown a rich vein, and a piece of LDM ore was taken from the vein and placed in his hand. If the same thing was done to a skeptic, he would probably say, "I do believe, I do believe!"

I am a skeptic, and I'd hope that everyone who is active in this subforum is the same. I won't believe the "rock cabin" is actually there until I can reach out and touch it with my hand. I won't believe the "old mine" is actually there until I see it and walk onto the ledge. GE images are just "teasers" that can lead to new and exciting adventures. In this case, a new adventure is on my to-do list, and it has top priority. Be very patient and maybe we could all be amazed.

GE is a useful tool, but it does not always show things as they really are. Its reliability in this case looks very good -- good enough to show the old foundation at the Indian Paint Mine, for example, and it has never failed revealing old mine sites in the Cerbat Mountains. I always use GE before grabbing my boots and backpack.

Seems you missed the point......that being " The great clew for which all the search is now being made is a rock cabin in a cave " .......in a cave, not on an opposite ridge.
We aren't saying GE has no use for T-Hunters in general, or LDM searchers in particular skyhawk . I think most of us can see things on GE which we already know from experience are actually there. But you are never going to be able to see what is in a cave by using GE....let alone see the cave itself via any satellite imagery.

 

[Hinterlander]

Speaking only for myself, but I think a lot group are of the same mind. I would venture to say that "we" are not skeptics. We believe that the LDM exists and of that we are not skeptical. Skepticism and cynicism come into play when someone posts a GE image and states that it's such and such. When in reality it looks nothing like what it is being represented to be without doing a lot of squinting and having a great imagination.

Your post states definitively that the GE image "shows a "rock cabin" and a mine on opposite slopes". Of that I am very "skeptical". I am not cynical to it, because if you showed a boots on the ground photo of an actual mine and cabin, I would believe it.

Then, to Somehiker's point; you attached the PC Bicknell article stating that "The great clew for which all the search is now being made is a rock cabin in a cave" with the photo that I am already very skeptical of, showing something that looks nothing like a cabin to me, but especially not a "cabin in a cave". Then you expect the rest of us to connect these extremely disjointed dots and come to the same conclusion as you.

Based on your evidence, I wouldn't waste the brow sweat that it would take to investigate the area. Again, just my opinion. But good luck to you, may you find what you think you see.

 

[skyhawk1251]

I see that I need to clarify my position. First of all, I don't believe all of the LDM clues are accurate or valid. I quoted Bicknell's article only because it mentions a "rock cabin." I see evidence of a rock structure in the GE image. It is not "in a cave", nor did I infer that it is. I only pointed out similarities this location seems to have with what Bicknell wrote in his article. Bicknell based his articles, to a large part, on an interview with Julia Thomas. He did not have any first-hand contact with Jacob Waltz, who was long deceased by that time. So, Bicknell was getting second-hand information from a source, whose reliability was dubious, at best.

Yes, I will remain a skeptic concerning the LDM until someone can lead me to that hole in the ground and puts a chunk of that rich ore in my hand. Meanwhile, I've found a location worthy of investigation, if only from a historical perspective. Sitting in front of a computer screen will prove nothing, only some footwork on-the-ground can provide some answers. I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything here, I've only stated what I see in the GE image. You can see what you want to see.

 

[Gregory E. Davis]

SkyHawk1251: Would this be south of the junction of Boulder Canyon and the Soldier Trail? Cordially, Gregory E. Davis

 

[markmar]

Skyhawk

IMHO, the " rock cabin in a cave " is wrong if attributed to LDM clues. The correct clue is " roofless two room house in a cave's mouth ", which means it's outside of the cave and in some way could be seen from above if someone knows where to look.
There is a shallow cave beside the ruin, but the name used in maps for this spot as " casa caverna " or " caverna con casa ", was more for the shape of the ground which surrounds the ruin, which looks similar to a cave's entrance.
Like you, I don't try to convince anyone I have the solution, but if someone is realy interested to find that landmark, then they have to know there is only one option, the ruin across the ravine from the LDM Placer, and that ruin looks like this in GE

 

[somehiker]

Skyhawk

IMHO, the " rock cabin in a cave " is wrong if attributed to LDM clues. The correct clue is " roofless two room house in a cave's mouth ", which means it's outside of the cave and in some way could be seen from above if someone knows where to look.
There is a shallow cave beside the ruin, but the name used in maps for this spot as " casa caverna " or " caverna con casa ", was more for the shape of the ground which surrounds the ruin, which looks similar to a cave's entrance.
Like you, I don't try to convince anyone I have the solution, but if someone is realy interested to find that landmark, then they have to know there is only one option, the ruin across the ravine from the LDM Placer, and that ruin looks like this in GE

In what publication did you read this marius....." roofless two room house in a cave's mouth " ?

 

[markmar]

In what publication did you read this marius....." roofless two room house in a cave's mouth " ?

It's in a LDM clue which use the term " across the gulch from the mine ". I can't find it for the moment, but I believe the most LDM old timers are aware of this clue.

 

[somehiker]

It's in a LDM clue which use the term " across the gulch from the mine ". I can't find it for the moment, but I believe the most LDM old timers are aware of this clue.

I'm pretty sure most of us are familiar with the "clue" as " across the gulch from the mine, there was a roofless two-room house IN a cave "......and not " in a cave's mouth".

 

[chub]

This GE image shows a "rock cabin" and a mine on opposite slopes of a ravine located east of Boulder Canyon, and north of the canyon's junction with Needle Canyon. The viewpoint of the GE image is looking up the ravine to the east from directly overhead. The "rock cabin" is on the south ridge of the ravine. The mine is on the northern slope of the ravine. The mine is marked by a narrow terrace/ledge of level ground that is retained by a stacked-stone wall. A few rocks have fallen down the slope and now rest on the terrace/ledge. No dump of waste material from the mine is clearly visible, which indicates that very little waste was taken out of the mine, or that the waste material was widely scattered down the slope. There could be some disturbed ground directly below the mine, but that fact is far from certain. There are no clearly defined foot trails visible in the GE image. This indicates to me, based on mining trails I've seen in Mohave County, AZ, that the mine is very old -- much older than 100 years.

I've measured the line-of-sight distance from the "rock cabin" to the mine, as shown by the white line. That distance is 183 feet. The easiest route to the mine from Boulder Canyon would be by passing the mouth of the ravine, going south, then by turning about and ascending to the ravine's south ridge. Once on the south ridge, the "rock cabin" is passed, heading east to the high end of the ravine. A long traverse/switchback is then made to the north slope of the ravine and down slightly to the mine. The bottom of the ravine is too choked with boulders and vegetation for a more direct route to its high end.

The green box encloses what looks like a terraced depression. There are other possible indications of human activity at this location, but they are not of primary importance, so I won't discuss them in this post.

View attachment 1937158

View attachment 1937159

Thanks for sharing! In all fairness you use phrases like "what looks like" and "possible indications" which I think is an excellent approach when using GE. So definately no comments re X ray glasses required.
GE can be both awesome AND completely misleading. I recently found 2 sites on GE about 2 miles apart.One was outstanding - super accurate- stone buildings,great detecting and better than imagined. The other was a bust...I took a screenshot the night before because there is no signal at the location...whether it was shadow, light, shrubbery etc?? It was nothing.
I think the sites indicated look well worth exploring. Dont discount the other signs of human habitation. Im often surprised at how as humans we all walk the same path even in remote terain. Toilet sites, fire sites, trails to water etc all add to the credibility of the site.

Chub

 

[markmar]

I'm pretty sure most of us are familiar with the "clue" as " across the gulch from the mine, there was a roofless two-room house IN a cave "......and not " in a cave's mouth".

I'm sure I have read it somewhere. But you can choose which is the accurate one by looking at the GE image.

 

[skyhawk1251]

Thanks to everyone for your replies and for the very much appreciated "likes." I'm often amazed at the time and effort many posters put into researching their contributions to this subforum. I'm truly humbled by their superior knowledge of the LDM history. My apologies, too, to those who are forced to sit in front of computer screens, due to physical disabilities that prevent them from going into the mountains any longer. My sympathies are with you.

My purpose in starting this thread was twofold, and that purpose has been fully satisfied. I won't add anymore to that, but I will promise not to post GE images to this subforum in the future, in deference to those who strongly dislike GE. I'll be taking a camera to this location, so I anticipate bringing back many, many photos.

IMHO, the "rock cabin in a cave" is wrong if attributed to LDM clues. The correct clue is "roofless two room house in a cave's mouth", which means it's outside of the cave and in some way could be seen from above if someone knows where to look. There is a shallow cave beside the ruin, but the name used in maps for this spot as "casa caverna" or "caverna con casa", was more for the shape of the ground which surrounds the ruin, which looks similar to a cave's entrance. Like you, I don't try to convince anyone I have the solution, but if someone is really interested to find that landmark, then they have to know there is only one option, the ruin across the ravine from the LDM Placer, and that ruin looks like this in GE ... -- Markmar

Much appreciated, Markmar. You might not realize it, but your forum contributions seem to follow the old addage, "you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink", meaning that it's wasted effort to try to convince someone of something if they're too stubborn to accept it. I also like your approach, "if you want the solution, find it yourself." Anyone who wants something bad enough, should be willing to do the work themselves.

Thanks for sharing! In all fairness you use phrases like "what looks like" and "possible indications" which I think is an excellent approach when using GE. So definitely no comments re X ray glasses required. GE can be both awesome AND completely misleading. I recently found 2 sites on GE about 2 miles apart. One was outstanding - super accurate- stone buildings, great detecting and better than imagined. The other was a bust ... I took a screenshot the night before because there is no signal at the location ... whether it was shadow, light, shrubbery etc?? It was nothing. I think the sites indicated look well worth exploring. Don't discount the other signs of human habitation." -- Chub

Chub, your reply is right-on-target. As far as this site is concerned, I should give close scrutiny to the north-facing slope below the south ridge to see if there are any caves, and to the area directly below the mine, near the bottom of the ravine to see if there could be a concealed tunnel. The south ridge has some strange surface features that I'll want to look at, also.

 

[Idahodutch]

I'm sure I have read it somewhere. But you can choose which is the accurate one by looking at the GE image.

So, which ever one fits YOUR spot, is the correct version of the clue huh?
Some things may never change, I guess.

 

[skyhawk1251]

SkyHawk1251: Would this be south of the junction of Boulder Canyon and the Soldier Trail? Cordially, Gregory E. Davis

I've sent a PM. -- Skyhawk1251

 

[somehiker]

I'm sure I have read it somewhere. But you can choose which is the accurate one by looking at the GE image.

And how does your GE image look like a two room house in a cave, markmar ?

" the name used in maps for this spot as " casa caverna " or " caverna con casa ", was more for the shape of the ground which surrounds the ruin, which looks similar to a cave's entrance. "

Are you talking about this ..... ?



If so, how can you be sure that the illustration on the map does not refer to this caverna......



.....and to the casa that is visible within ? (click on the pic 3x to enlarge)

 

[markmar]

So, which ever one fits YOUR spot, is the correct version of the clue huh?
Some things may never change, I guess.

Future will shows who holds the correct version. We will be here to see the results of everyone's research and to judge at the end.

 

[markmar]

And how does your GE image look like a two room house in a cave, markmar ?

" the name used in maps for this spot as " casa caverna " or " caverna con casa ", was more for the shape of the ground which surrounds the ruin, which looks similar to a cave's entrance. "

Are you talking about this ..... ?

If so, how can you be sure that the illustration on the map does not refer to this caverna......

.....and to the casa that is visible within ? (click on the pic 3x to enlarge)

Seems you have found the correct one. Remains to find the other gold mines in the region.

PS

I didn't know the CASA ( house ) is similar to a cliff face.