check this out this is a craigs list add in phx

[FLOYD MANN]

As far as "Treasure-Hunting" goes: you can't have BOTH Fame AND Fortune---pick ONE ! I guarantee you: if you "advertise" you have made a great "recovery"---people will start lining up to file Court claims that "somehow" THEY are entitled to a share of it ! That is if our so-called government does not arrest you First & just TAKE it from you. Keep your lip zipped ! Trust me on just this ONE thing !

I list "Treasure Hunter" as my OCCUPATION on my Federal return every year. Surprise ---I get audited every year ! BETTER Surprise: I always get MORE back than I requested---because they usually say something like: "Well, if you are claiming THIS as an expense, did you forget that you can ALSO claim THIS?" Granted---it takes about 3 months to get my "refund", but I have everything so well documented that they can't even THINK of not paying me !. And YES: I do claim each year that I "find" treasure. But my LEGAL deductions very easily offset ALL of my claimed income. I'm not bragging right here ( but to illustrate my point )---my Federal Refund is about $12,000.00 this year & my Utah Refund is about 3 grand.

As my spare time permits, I try to help ( educate ) other Treasure Hunters on how THEY might ( also ) benefit from keeping ALL of their receipts & filing just a bit differently each year.

When Phil R. ( & hopefully I am with him ! ) fully documents his Discovery and convinces the Powers that Be to issue a Permit for RECOVERY--- he will be the RARE exception to the rule that you can't have BOTH Fame AND Fortune. As long as the Government is "guaranteed" THEIR share---Phil will be able to legally collect his percentage, pay the Government, & ALSO BRAG about it ! Sweet Deal ! I'm convinced ( from what he has divulged to ME ) that he just might be very Famous on this deal. I really cannot believe that there are not Investors knocking down his door ! Even if he is WRONG---you get a GREAT write-off on your taxes ! Think outside of the box---if you really want to prosper. I retired at age 44 & have been doing this so-called treasure hunting "hobby" for 10 years. I must be doing "something" right ? !!

So: the point of this "rant" is: don't knock another man's dream, just because you can't come up with your OWN dream. I've helped HUNDREDS of "treasure hunters" ful-fill their "dreams"---when no one else ( even their own spouses or family ) would believe in them. This is SO SAD. You should be cheering ON your fellow treasure hunter---NOT trying to discourage them ! OK---I'm done For Now ! Everyone: have a Fantastic life---Dream The DREAM !

Floyd

 

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[alaskabill]

Phil,

I must respectfully disagree with this comment:

"To date no one has successfully started at the beginning andfollowed the Maps to anywhere...."

I put the Stone Map Trail on a topo around forty years ago, and have followed it from start to finish. Remembering that I laid out the map four decades ago, around five years ago I found this at the end of the trail:

Probably just a coincidence, but if you have something that shows the entire trail, I would like to see it.

Hi Joe,

This picture looks very familiar to me. Was the picture taken from Boulder Canyon looking WSW up the wash that empties into BC?

Bill

 

[cactusjumper]

Bill,

As I have mentioned before, there is nothing left of my fifty-two years of association with the Superstition Mountains, that is not open for discussion.

The heart is located in Little Boulder Canyon, exactly where I placed it on a topo around forty years ago. At that time, I had never been in that canyon. In the picture you can see a tall, armless saguaro to the right of the heart. In the picture below, you can see that same cactus to the left of the trail.

The trail, at this point, is worn into the bedrock. Small boulders have been placed on the left side of the trail. The heart is directly in line with the heart and is obscured by the brush. It can only be viewed, as a heart, from the north looking south.

What you see behind the heart, is the ridge that separates West and East Boulder Canyon.

This is the trail:

Take care,

Joe

 

[cactusjumper]

SWR,

If someone, who has solved the Stone Maps, has anything even close to this map, I would be interested in seeing it:

I don't really claim that I have solved the Stone Maps, but I have placed them in the proper place in the Superstitions. I am unsure if they have anything to be "solved", but can assure you they are a very accurate map of the terrain.

Enough evidence has come down the pike in the last 40-45 years to convince me the maps are relatively modern creations. That evidence points to Chuck Aylor and Ted DeGrazia as the creators of the maps. There may be one other person who was involved, but I won't be naming him.

I am happy to hear any "accurate" critiques of my maps. So far, only one person has ever been able to do that, and his critique only dealt with the spacing of the dots/monuments? on the trail. Everything else on the maps is accurate and very close to scale.

Joe Ribaudo

 

[rochha]

Joe,

I felt that if the spacing of the dots on the stone maps were put there, they were put there for a reason. I was just trying to figure out what that reason was. I looked at your interpretations with an open mind. I did not come away with the same conclusion as you. You told me to forget about the dots, I could not. If your map over lay is true, then what is the purpose of the dots? Something should show up along the trail at those spots ( dots ). I feel that between here and arizpe ( if the stone maps are in fact the ones in azmulas article ) there could be several other places where they could be overlayed to match trails, topography and what not.

I may not have agreed with your conclusions, I applaud your efforts in trying to solve it!

Rochha

 

[cactusjumper]

Rochha,

As you know, I can't answer the question of the dot's spacing. I also have no idea if there is a treasure or mine at the end of the trail, but I do know that there are mines shown along that trail.

Around 35-36 years ago, we packed into Willow Spring. While my Uncle Chuck set up camp, my brother and I went to the big bend in the canyon to see if it was feasible to climb to the top of the ridge from that area. The trail on the Stone Maps indicates that it was done. I was looking for monuments along the way, saw none but found the climb to the top of the ridge fairly easy. I was hoping to find two monuments on top of the ridge. I had marked them there before ever being there.

As you know, we walked a short distance northward and walked right up to an 18" (approx.) square monument about 6' tall. The sides seemed perfectly squared and there was a rectangular sight hole built into it at eye height. Looking through the sight hole, there was a rounded hill directly in line with the monument. Following the Stone Map Trail, we walked around the hill and found an identical monument minus the sight hole.

At that point it was getting late in the afternoon and we started straight down the side of the ridge, but not the way we came up. Willow Spring was slightly to our left as we began the descent. A short way down, night fell. We had my dog Juno with us and had to hand him down many times. Chuck had built a campfire and we used that as a guide. It was an adventure I will never forget.

That night a storm came in. Chuck insisted that we leave the canyon, and in the following years I never returned to the monuments or even that area. The monuments convinced me that the Stone Maps were the real thing, and I went to the end of the trail in Little Boulder. I continued exploring that area and decided to try and find those monuments again in 1999. In 2000 we made the climb to the top of the ridge, from the north end.

I flew into the area in a helicopter and took hundreds of pictures.........close up. We also walked the ridge as well. The monuments are completely gone. Someone has destroyed them.

Because I found the two monuments I was looking for, almost exactly where I expected them to be, I am convinced each of the dots represent a monument. The first half of the Stone Map Trail is precise, and the dots are space with the turns in the physical trail. The second half, which takes you across the ridge and into Little Boulder Canyon is not precise......for some reason. Everything else on the two maps is on the money.

Someone else will have to figure out why that second half of the trail is not exactly to scale. The end of the trail in Little Boulder can be verified by running lines from the known points on the maps. The locator dots to draw those lines from are all supplied on the maps I have posted. Other than the spacing on the second map trail, the map is very close to being on scale.

The fact that the trail from West Boulder that curves through a saddle and leads directly into the heart I have posted a picture of, seems like more than a coincidence. The triangle is just below the heart in the canyon. It is huge and consists of the brush naturally growing into that form by the shape of the canyon.

I have always know that the trail on the ridge was not exact. Finding the two monuments convinced me that it was not important. If someone has figured out something better, they have not presented it. The Stone Maps are available to be compared to my map. Everyone will all have to come to their own conclusions about whether I am right or not. I am aware that you have concluded that I am wrong, and you may be correct.

Until you, Azmula or someone else comes along and actually shows something better, I will stick with what I have. I wish you all good luck in doing that, especially Azmula, as he has done many years of wonderful research.

On the other hand, I am not writing a book, making a movie, or in anyway trying to make a buck off of my research. To the contrary, I am freely offering what I have discovered to anyone who wants to see it.

Take care,

Joe

 

[rochha]

Joe,

My beliefs about the Stone Maps changed when Azmula posted in Peter’s forum (by the way, does any one know what is going on with Peter’s site?) that he had found evidence that they (A set of Stone Maps) had been found located under the bed of a map maker’s room at the mission of Arizpe by the Franciscans that took over after they (Jesuits) were expelled. I had posted prior to that on his site that if anyone could find out where these stones came from (found) that part of the puzzle could possibly be solved. I feel these stones are the last set of instructions to what ever was hidden. These kind of stones are meant to be buried, not left out (they are too small) in the open somewhere were they could be moved. If that happened then what they led to would never be found. Where they were found is a possibility as to where to start to get to the end result.

I feel that who ever made these were clever enough to make it look one thing on the surface, when in reality it meant something entirely different. When trying to figure out something made by someone clever like that, it’s almost like you do the opposite of what it appears to be. When something (clues) indicates to go left, I am sure the direction they do not want you to go in is right. Anyone who believes that Jesuits made these stones has to be open to the possibility that were they were found is a potential starting point! Only those that understand the level of their deceit know what I am talking about.

If something is left behind in clues (carved stone maps) as to where to go along a certain trail to take you somewhere that you never have been, this has to be exact and to scale. If it wasn’t the end result would never be found. Your approach in solving this is a very logical one. Try to place the supposed trail over a topo of somewhere in the Superstitions and see if it fits. Go to the end of the trail and see what is there. You find a heart shaped stone, and I believe that to be a heart shaped stone. Who do you think put it there? Why not go farther and see what is carved on the heart shaped stone. Something has to be there to tell you where to go from there.

It sounds like that particular trip was rather exhilarating for you. Your findings are a possibility in solving the Stone Maps. So is my theory…….a possibility.

Rochha

 

[cactusjumper]

Rochha,

"Only those that understand the level of their deceit know what I am talking about."

I will be the first to admit that I don't "understand the level of their deceit". On the other hand, I have researched the history of the Jesuits, to the extent that time and funds have allowed me. Most of that has been positive, but I have also pursued the negative history as well. That research has led me to the conclusion that the Jesuits did very little mining or hoarding of treasure.......if any.

While there are many claims, mostly by treasure hunters/authors, there is no verifiable proof. Even the stories that Mike has posted, can't be authenticated as Jesuit, or even verified as factual treasure. You would think that at least one story or treasure would be labeled as fact by professionals.

Lou is a perfect example. He has perfected the Spanish "Code", publicised it in a book, and doesn't have a single piece of treasure, or a mine, to show for his years of hard work. I don't believe anyone who has purchased that book has sucessfully used the information either.

It seems that everyone who knows all the answers is busy writing a book. None of them ever produce the treasure, but they all manage to pound out a book. Many of them have another thing in common, they all hate to be questioned on the historical "facts" that they provide on forums such as this to bolster their stories. I know, all those sources will be revealed when the book is published.......years down the road.

Many of those books I have purchased, some have been gifted to me by the authors. Each time the sources are ghosts. I appreciate the efforts as well as the gifts, but that doesn't mean I will sugar coat the "facts". If and when Azmula's book comes out, I will give it a fair reading. If he tries to B.S. his way through the historical facts, as he often did on the LDM Forum, I will still be calling a spade a spade.

If, on the other hand, he writes a book with a solid historical foundation and believable sources, I will give him all the praise he deserves. At the same time, I will have no problem saying my doubts were all wrong. Everyone, including me, has been an expert on the historical facts of the Stone Maps. All of us can't be correct.

I have always told people that the Stone Maps could be a hoax. With the evidence I have found, I believe that to be the truth.

Take care,

Joe

 

[rochha]

Joe,

“ While there are many claims, mostly by treasure hunters/authors, there is no verifiable proof. Even the stories that Mike has posted, can't be authenticated as Jesuit, or even verified as factual treasure. You would think that at least one story or treasure would be labeled as fact by professionals “.

Not necessarily, if I had found something you can be sure that it would never become verifiable or ever become public knowledge. I am sure that concept has crossed the minds of people that have found something in the past. Just because you cant verify something in some way shape or form does not mean it could not have possibly happened or existed. I have exchanged some emails with Mike and he does not strike me to be someone who would fabricate a story to earn points with the forum audience. If he says something about his word that he cant reveal his source, that is good enough for me.

“ Lou is a perfect example. He has perfected the Spanish "Code", publicized it in a book, and doesn't have a single piece of treasure, or a mine, to show for his years of hard work. I don't believe anyone who has purchased that book has successfully used the information either “.

How do you know he hasn’t? How do you know that no one ever has? Just because you have not heard about it does not mean that it could not possibly exist or have happened. Again, if someone was to find something like that, do you think it would become common knowledge?

“ It seems that everyone who knows all the answers is busy writing a book. None of them ever produce the treasure, but they all manage to pound out a book. Each of them have another thing in common, they all hate to be questioned on the historical "facts" that they provide on forums such as this to bolster their stories. I know, all those sources will be revealed when the book is published...years down the road “.

Just because someone does not reveal their sources prior to a publication does not mean anything sinister. I take it as someone not wanting to just freely give away what has taken them probably some time, effort and energy to acquire. I don’t feel that Azmula would publish something or hint to a source of verification with out proof to bolster his theory.

“ Many of those books I have purchased, some have been gifted to me by the authors. Each time the sources are ghosts. I appreciate the efforts as well as the gifts, but that doesn't mean I will sugar coat the "facts". If and when Azmula's book comes out, I will give it a fair reading. If he tries to B.S. his way through the historical facts, as he often did on the LDM Forum, I will still be calling a spade a spade “.

I don’t think that anyone’s word is gospel when it relates to any of this. Some may know more than others. I am open to all reasonable possibilities when it comes to any of this. But like you I have my own beliefs about things. My research on all of this has led me to believe what I believe today. I can honestly say tho, that I look at all possibilities with out bias. I am not just restricted to what I believe to be the truth. I have no horse in this race and no money into it. By that I mean I am not obligated to my beliefs because of the amount of time, effort, energy that I have put into it.

“ If, on the other hand, he writes a book with a solid historical foundation and believable sources, I will give him all the praise he deserves. At the same time, I will have no problem saying my doubts were all wrong. Everyone, including me, has been an expert on the historical facts of the Stone Maps. All of us can't be correct “.

I don’t think any one ever will be! I also dont doubt that you would own up so to speak.

" I have always told people that the Stone Maps could be a hoax. With the evidence I have found, I believe that to be the truth" .

Sounds kinda contradicatry, which ones are the hoax? The ones with the trails?

By the way, I was at Bookmans in Mesa the other day. I found book by Curt Gentry called " The Killer Mountains " for $1.98.. did I do good?

Rochha

 

[Oroblanco]

Cactusjumper wrote

That research has led me to the conclusion that the Jesuits did very little mining or hoarding of treasure.......if any.

While there are many claims, mostly by treasure hunters/authors, there is no verifiable proof. Even the stories that Mike has posted, can't be authenticated as Jesuit, or even verified as factual treasure. You would think that at least one story or treasure would be labeled as fact by professionals.

There was good reason why the Pope ordered the Jesuits to disband forever, and a later Pope even referred to some unfortunate propensity for acquisitiveness on part of some members. The evidence is there, and the Society of today has a vested interest in denying any and all involvement in the past. Why do we find the first Franciscans who replaced the departed Jesuits lamenting on the poor level of education of the Indios formerly in charge of the Jesuits? "They were too busy with their labors" - labors of ranching and farming obviously, but hidden in their own records are references to their involvement in mining. They could swear with an honest heart never to have owned any treasures or mines, since the actual ownership was in the names of trusted friends or the Church. Even the small visita churches had rich vestments and silver accouterments, and every Jesuit could say they were not his. The Jesuits were also frequently entrusted with government monies, and the hiding of these during periods of upheaval is (I believe) at the heart of many a lost "Jesuit" treasure. So how much proof do you desire? I would hope you are not expecting some member of the Society of Jesus to come forward and admit, openly, to their having owned mines and/or treasures. I am a little surprised at your conclusions Joe.

Cactusjumper also wrote

It seems that everyone who knows all the answers is busy writing a book. None of them ever produce the treasure, but they all manage to pound out a book. Many of them have another thing in common, they all hate to be questioned on the historical "facts" that they provide on forums such as this to bolster their stories. I know, all those sources will be revealed when the book is published.......years down the road.

I am sorry to see your opinion of treasure writers quite so low. I cannot really speak for all, but some have done good research and presented what they had learned, which goes to benefit all treasure hunters who will follow - including those who follow us today. Sometimes the writer is guilty of misleading his or her readers, and this practice ought to be brought under the spotlight to hopefully reduce the BS flow in future. In some cases the writer is guilty of including false or misleading statements, purely in an innocent way as the writer believed it true. I would not say "none" ever produce any treasure, as I doubt that everyone would be quick to make it public knowledge when they find something.

I will go back to lurking, sorry for the interruption amigos.
Roy ~ Oroblanco

 

[cactusjumper]

Rochha,

You are probably correct on all counts.

Your copy of "Killer Mountains" is likely a good buy. It all depends on condition, age, paperback or hardback, first edition or later printing, signed or unsigned and who the book is inscribed to.

I have collected many signed first editions, some very unusual. For instance, I have a signed hardback first edition of "Al Sieber: Chief Of Scouts" by Dan Thrapp. He signed a lot of books, but this one is inscribed to Constance Wynn Altshuler. That in itself is not so unusual, except that Constance signed her own name into the inscription. I have a number of books from her personal collection, which is where this one came from.

If you enjoyed the book, it was a great price.

Take care,

Joe

 

[cactusjumper]

Roy,

No doubt my research was flawed, or less than complete. In time, I hope to become semi- knowledgeable on the subject. Life is short and there are many books to read.

Anyone who can reccommend a good source book, I am open to them all.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Oroblanco]

Joe - I doubt that your research was flawed, or at least not more flawed than anyone else's. In many subjects, two different people can look at the same evidences and arrive at quite different conclusions. I am reminded of the old joke about two countries reporting on an athletic event - between the USA and USSR. In the contest, the USA won while the USSR lost, but in USSR newspapers it was reported, "USA and USSR compete in international athletic contest; USSR comes in second place, USA comes in NEXT TO LAST"! I was just a bit surprised at your conclusions.

Perhaps there is a huge difference in perceptions and/or definitions? If we are talking about vast hoards of gold bullion stored away by many Jesuits, the evidence does not support the idea. If we take the position that NO Jesuit priest ever went near any of the silver and gold mines, nor ever hid ANY treasures, likewise the evidence does not support that position either.

For better or worse, most of the old Spanish and Mexican mines have become known popularly as "Jesuit" when the odds are no Jesuit owned or operated them. I do not know any way in which an old Spanish mine would be readily identified from a Jesuit mine, though some experts on treasure signs would surely disagree on this point. Those early missions had to make a profit; the Indios were put to work on the ranches and farming, diving for pearls and in the mines. To the Indios, it was forced labor equivalent to slavery, to the Padres it was simply getting simple but lazy people to pull their own weight and support themselves. From our viewpoint, taken from two very different sources, the truth is probably somewhere in between.
Roy ~ Oroblanco

 

[rochha]

Oroblanco:

“I do not know any way in which an old Spanish mine would be readily identified from a Jesuit mine, though some experts on treasure signs would surely disagree on this point “.

There is a way of knowing just as you describe, by the signs, symbols left behind that pertain to that particular cache.

You have what I believe a very good grasp of what happened during those times.

I am no expert, just my opinion.

Rochha

 

[cactusjumper]

Good Morning Roy,

"If we take the position that NO Jesuit priest ever went near any of the silver and gold mines, nor ever hid ANY treasures, likewise the evidence does not support that position either."

Can't imagine anyone who has read the history of the Jesuits in the New World taking that "extream" of a position, I certainly don't.

I don't dismiss Jesuit treasures lightly or out of hand. There was a time when I firmly believed that Harry LaFrance's cave of gold bars was a Jesuit treasure. Preached that theory for a couple of decades.

As is my habit, I did not spend that time reading only treasure hunting material, but searched out historical background to confirm my beliefs. While some accounts did hint at Jesuit mining, not one piece of solid evidence ever surfaced. Eventually I came to believe that Harry's treasure was not Jesuit, but probably came out of Mexico through Ted DeGrazia's friends, one of whom claimed to have ridden with Poncho Villa.

I find it highly doubtful there was ever a King of Spain's secret code that every miner and mine had to conform to. The shear numbers did not allow any room for secrecy. "On pain of Spain" did not exist as a phrase, as far as I can tell, until coined by the treasure hunting community. The miners of the New World had minimal fear of the king who had little control over the remote mines. The king's men were quickly swayed by the generosity of the mine owners to look the other way. Mexico has changed little since that time.

As with every country in that era, secret codes were being invented at a staggering rate. One country was the laughing stock for the rest of the world, because of the simplicity of their codes. Their letters were being deciphered, almost, before the ink dried. Do you know which country that was?

For a quick primer on the history of codes, I would recommend that everyone interested in such things, pick up and read "The Code Book" by Simon Singh. If you can break away from treasure hunter's code books for a short time, you may find this book an eye opener. Our major area of interest can be found on pages 28 and 29. For those interested in the Beale Cypher, that can be found beginning on page 82. Singh covers Ancient Egypt to Quantum Cryptography. That takes a pretty good sized book and entails some fairly dry reading.

The idea that these "King's" secret codes could be kept out of public view for hundreds of years, seems a bit ludicrous to me. Beyond that the entire concept, as it applies to Jesuit treasure, seems illogical.

Just my opinion based on the small amount or research I have done on the subject. I have no problem admitting that there is a huge amount of history and information out there that I have never seen or even heard of. That being said, it follows that I could be wrong.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Listening & thunkn

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[djui5]

Phil,
Any progress?

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Hi mi buddy Djuicy. Missed you.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[djui5]

Hi mi buddy Djuicy. Missed you.

Don Jose de La Mancha

Missed you too

 

[Cubfan64]

Hi mi buddy Djuicy. Missed you.

Don Jose de La Mancha

Missed you too

Ewwwww - get a room :P

Happy New Year - any thoughts on if I should look into coming out for a week in March sometime?