Tumacacori Mission Mines RE: Sister Micaela Molina Document

[gollum]

And let us not forget the huge number of deaths at Guevavi. Several of the Jesuit Fathers assigned there became VERY ill and they recovered only after leaving the area. We should also remember Father Grazhoffer SJ, who it is said was poisoned by the O'odham Indians. The symptoms of his "poisoning" sounded remarkably like heavy metal poisoning. In 1733 the Spanish would not have known about heavy metal poisoning. They would have considered it something else.

With the exception of the smallpox epidemic in 1752, the causes of most of the deaths, again, seemed more like heavy metal poisoning. How could that have happened at a regular old mission? Maybe if there was ore smelting/refining going on there?

Mike

 

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[Oroblanco]

Hola amigos,

Cactusjumper wrote

On the other hand, you might be able to build a pretty good case for the Franciscans.

There has not been the same level of interest, <which is odd if you think about that> and unfortunately not the level of documentation available on the Franciscans who followed the Jesuits. One thing of note however, is the San Xavier del Bac mission, with its masses of silver ($40,000 in early 1800's dollars) decorating it, apparently did not have such masses of silver ornamentation when the Franciscans took it over. So apparently "somehow" the dirt-poor Franciscan padres managed to make a miracle and get that mission fitted with such impressive silver, which was noted and mentioned by several early visitors. Their efforts in Pimeria were milder than the Jesuits, according to the Franciscans, yet they were quite harsh with the Indios on the Colorado river and the results were a massacre. So there is a question about that silver, and how it got there.
Oroblanco

 

[cactusjumper]

Infosponge,

I have not "conveniently left out" anything. There are any numbers of "possibilities" for how miners could have been supplied. The chain of way stations that has been mentioned here for moving all of the gold and silver out of Pimeria Alta being one. I addressed a specific comment that was made about Tumacacori here earlier.

Who did the Jesuits use for labor in the mines?

Mike,

Mexico was unhealthy for everyone. There were places where the Europeans simply could not live. It's also a fact that the natives of the area had a very deadly poison that they used. Sure, it could have been mercury poison, but that's pure speculation. On the other hand, the bodies could be exhumed and tested for mercury poisoning.

Roy,

Because of the power and wealth that the Jesuit Order amassed, they were hated by many. They make an easier target than the Franciscans.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

HI Joe, you posted ->Because of the power and wealth that the Jesuit Order amassed, they were hated by many. They make an easier target than the Franciscans.
************
Odd , but for a poverty vowed Order to gain such wealth and power, they apparently were thinking more about accumulating $$$ for their order rather than the gathering of souls for the Lord as the Franciscans perhaps were ? Most of this wealth does not seem to have trickled back / out to the outlying missions, according to their published / available records.

Reminds me a bit of the Vow of chastity, which appears to be rescinded when one makes POPE, since many records exist of illegitimate children left by various heads of the religion, or any one of them for that matter.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[cactusjumper]

Don Jose,

Almost all religions are about money and power, to some degree. The Catholic Church in all its manifestations happens to be very good at acquiring both. I believe the vow of poverty is for the individual priests, not the mother church.

Any wealth belonged to the church, not someone like Father Kino. That is fairly well know historical fact.

The priests as well as the Pope's are mortal men, not perfect gods. In every case where failure is possible, man will often fail. If you want to damn an entire religion with the failures of some of its members, that's your call. I prefer to look at the good that the church and it's organization has done over the centuries and judge the whole, rather than the part.

The Jesuits had great power in the New World which came directly from the orders of the King. Had they not possessed that power, they Native Americans you now call your friends would likely not exist as a people. Documented history tells us that the Jesuit Order is the only thing that stood between the Indians and total enslavement in the mines of the Spaniards.

You may have another history, but it is folklore. Those stories could be true, but they are far outweighed by contemporaneous writings.

Just my opinion based on the history I have

That being said, as a mortal man, I could be wrong.

Take care,

Joe

 

[gollum]

Joe,

While much of what you say is true, there is a LOT more to the story. While the Jesuits did indeed save the Indios from the Spaniards, the Jesuits themselves didn't treat the Indios a whole lot better than the Spaniards did.

Anybody that says different needs to read the after-action reports on the different Indian Revolts. I will pose the same question to you that Lamar could never answer:

"If the Jesuits were so loving and caring, then why were they the principle targets of the Indians in EVERY SINGLE REVOLT?"

Neither the Pimas nor Tarahumaras primarily went after civilian targets in any of their revolts. Missions, Jesuit Priests, and their Majordomos were singled out in most instances.

Another thought that has constantly gnawed at me is put forth at an old and obscure book published in 1965 (I think). If you have it, read "Pimas, dead Padres, and Gold." Very interesting.

Best-Mike

 

[cactusjumper]

Mike,

["If the Jesuits were so loving and caring, then why were they the principle targets of the Indians in EVERY SINGLE REVOLT?"

Neither the Pimas nor Tarahumaras primarily went after civilian targets in any of their revolts. Missions, Jesuit Priests, and their Majordomos were singled out in most instances.]

I don't know what your source is for those statements, but they do not match the history that I have read.

Do you know who the very first victims of the Pima revolt of 1751 were? Do you know what happened at Tumacacori, where there was no church or priests?

I know quite a bit about the 1751 revolt, so it's probably not fair to debate what took place, unless you are as confident as I am about that history.

Take care,

Joe

 

[cactusjumper]

Mike,

Just wanted to make sure you didn't miss my wink there at the end of my last post. I know you have done tons of reseach on the Jesuits in Mexico, and I respect your knowledge. On the other hand, I believe you are overstating the case for why the revolt took place.

I am also aware of Luis Oacpicagigua's excuses for why he started that revolt. Padre Keller may have been an A$$ hole, but he did not murder hundreds of innocent men, women and children. The first to be murdered in the revolt were 20 Spaniards at.........?

After Oacpicagigua turned himself in, he blamed Padre Keller and complained about the Jesuit "bad treatment" of the Pima. Well......duh! Couldn't very well say he went on a killing spree because of kindness, could he.

Take care,

Joe

 

[gollum]

What I have are witness testimonies taken after the 1751 Pima Revolt, as well as several of the journals of the Jesuit Priests.

As far as how the Jesuits treated the Indians in their care, I have Father Polzer's own book "Rules and Precepts of the Jesuit Missions in Northwestern New Spain" in which he details exactly how the PRIESTS should beat the natives, because of excesses taken by many of the Priests. In that book, it also states unequivocally that many of the Jesuit Priests were working the Indians so hard, that they didn't have time to tend to their own gardens.

Specifically in the 1751 Revolt, the witness testimony stated that one of the Priests (I am doing this from memory and can dig out the exact quote if you need it) grabbed the stick of leadership from one of the Indian Leaders and made snide remarks about him. Questioning his honor and manhood. After grabbing the stick, he ordered the Indian to get away.

Here is a quote from the National Park Service regarding the 1751 Revolt:

The revolt started with destruction of the church at Saric, and the murder of Nentwig's servants and the wife and children of the mayordomo of the town. Luis' men quickly pushed on to the mission at Tubutama. Here, after a two- day siege, Father Sedelmayr's fine new church and new house were destroyed, and the padre barely escaped with his life. He, Nentwig, and several other Spaniards fled under cover of darkness, and finally reached Santa Ana nearly two days later.

The isolated missions of Caborca and Sonoyta (on the west) received the main fury of the uprising, with great destruction ensuing, and the murders of Fathers Tomas Tello, of Caborca, and Enrique Rhuen, of Sonoyta.

After the revolt was put down, the Spanish took many statements from the surviving Pimas. Several of them related stories of their cruel treatment at the hands of the Jesuits. This was the cause of the Governor laying the cause of the 1751 Revolt at the feet of the Jesuits. While history states that the Jesuits were eventually cleared of the charges, there are no specifics then given as to why they were cleared or what wound up being the real reason for the revolt. It looks more like the Jesuits used their power and influence to get out from underneath the charges.

Best-Mike

 

[gollum]

Mike,

Just wanted to make sure you didn't miss my wink there at the end of my last post. I know you have done tons of reseach on the Jesuits in Mexico, and I respect your knowledge. On the other hand, I believe you are overstating the case for why the revolt took place.

I am also aware of Luis Oacpicgigua's excuses for why he started that revolt. Padre Keller may have been an A$$ hole, but he did not murder hundreds of innocent men, women and children. The first to be murdered in the revolt were 20 Spaniards at.........?

After Oacpicgigua turned himself in, he blamed Padre Keller and complained about the Jesuit "bad treatment" of the Pima. Well......duh! Couldn't very well say he went on a killing spree because of kindness, could he.

Take care,

Joe

Sorry, I missed the wink. HAHAHA

One of the things about the 1751 Revolt is that VERY shortly after, Oacpicgigua was given a nice Spanish Uniform and horse. Unheard of in those days to give something like that to an Indian. That is why I asked you about "Pimas, Dead Padres, and Gold". That book, although entirely circumstantial and much of its evidence undocumented. it explains a lot of the questionable actions of the Spanish Civilians after the revolt.

Best-Mike


PS,

It was Father Garrucho SJ that disparaged Oacpicgigua's Cousin by telling him he wasn't deserving of carrying the leadership baton.

It was Father Keller SJ who disparaged Oacpicgigua himself by calling him a Chichimec Dog and he would more suited to wearing a coyote skin and loincloth, rather than his uniform as General of the Pima Auxiliaries.

 

[Oroblanco]

Hola amigos,
I realize this reply was directed to our amigo Don Jose, but it brings up a major problem with Jesuit history.
Cactusjumper wrote

Don Jose,

Almost all religions are about money and power, to some degree. The Catholic Church in all its manifestations happens to be very good at acquiring both. I believe the vow of poverty is for the individual priests, not the mother church.

Any wealth belonged to the church, not someone like Father Kino. That is fairly well know historical fact.

The priests as well as the Pope's are mortal men, not perfect gods. In every case where failure is possible, man will often fail. If you want to damn an entire religion with the failures of some of its members, that's your call. I prefer to look at the good that the church and it's organization has done over the centuries and judge the whole, rather than the part.

The Jesuits had great power in the New World which came directly from the orders of the King. Had they not possessed that power, they Native Americans you now call your friends would likely not exist as a people. Documented history tells us that the Jesuit Order is the only thing that stood between the Indians and total enslavement in the mines of the Spaniards.

You may have another history, but it is folklore. Those stories could be true, but they are far outweighed by contemporaneous writings.

Just my opinion based on the history I have

I see that our amigo Mike <Gollum> has already touched on part of what I was going to say, but will post the whole thing anyway just to be redundant.


Documented history amigo, is virtually ALL biased one way or another. Try reading the accounts of the Punic wars, from Latin and Greek sources, and you wonder if they are talking about the same conflict. No Jesuit historian is going to paint the history of his own Order in black paint, and the Spanish and Indio sources (Indios being oral histories) are somewhat at odds with the Jesuit versions on many counts. If it is true that the Jesuits were the great shepherds, protecting their flock of innocent Indios from the evil enslaving Spaniards, why then should there have been a problem with those same Indians literally running away from the Jesuit missions to go and work FOR the Spaniards in the very mines where their enslavements were so horrific? We can't point the finger ONLY at Jesuit missionaries for this constant problem of runaways, for there were even greater incidents at Franciscan missions (as in CA) where mass exodus of the Indians happened more than once. Then there are the revolts and rebellions - why target those great shepherds the Jesuit missionaries for destruction at all? The truth never fits with documented history; it is generally safe and comforting to stick with that alone, but there are too many incidents, like the runaways and rebellions, for that version of the Jesuits being only great shepherds concerned ONLY for the welfare and safety of their Indians to be true.

Actually there is another angle to this whole subject, which likewise gets little attention; that the Jesuit mining activities may have been intended for the good of their mission & Indians, as they did with the livestock and grain production. This would definitely be a "good thing" one could argue, not just evil amassing of treasures, and the Jesuits are credited with being the first to mine and smelt silver west of the continental divide. They were definitely pioneers in many respects, venturing far beyond the 'settled' frontier into the wild Indians and introducing many things. I don't see their mining activities as absolutely evil.
Cactusjumper also wrote

The first to be murdered in the revolt were 20 Spaniards at.........?

In the 1751 revolt father Nentvig received a note from father Sedelmayr the night BEFORE the uprising began so they were able to escape, otherwise there is no reason to think they would not have been among the very first killed. In the 1695 rebellion, it was a Jesuit who was the first target to die. Likewise, the Franciscan padres assigned to the Colorado river missions were also killed. The fact that they were targeted for destruction should tell us something, as Mike has pointed out, they were not above beating the natives personally. Even gentle father Garces (Franciscan) admitted that he spanked the Indian children for being tardy, despite being given direct verbal orders that the Indians must not be touched.

For someone who has so much of Jesuit history in the southwest US, it is a bit surprising that you have missed some of the darker side of their record. I won't go into it or it will be seen as Catholic-bashing, but I certainly would not defend the Jesuits, knowing their record.
Good luck and good hunting amigos, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco

 

[cactusjumper]

Mike,

"It was Father Keller SJ who disparaged Oacpicgigua himself by calling him a Chichimec Dog and he would more suited to wearing a coyote skin and loincloth, rather than his uniform as General of the Pima Auxiliaries."

Considering subsequent events, I would venture to guess that Father Keller knew what he was talking about. Is it possible that he was actually much worse than that?

After it was all over, don't you think the Indians who were involved might have said anything to justify the killing of anyone Spanish, or representing the King of Spain? Many of the natives warned the Jesuits ahead of time.

The history of Pimeria Alta after Father Kino's death reflects the effect such people actually had on the region. Keeping the population under control was essential to the European's survival. When they lost that control, many people died. Hard for us to get our minds wrapped around such a situation. Those who have been in combat, such as you, know what happens when you loose control of the situation. It seldom turns out well.

Not everyone understands what it's like to be in a situation where every hand can be turned against you at any time. Corporal punishment was an accepted method of maintaining order. Like it or not, it was a different time, with different problems than most of us can even imagine.

Take care.

Joe

 

[gollum]

Many of the natives warned the Jesuits ahead of time.

You say many, but I can only think of Father Nentvig SJ that had any forwarning. I may be mistaken.

I think Father Keller, Garrucho, and many other Jesuit Priests were far worse than recorded history suggest. That is why I keep asking why they were the primary targets of the revolts? You say they weren't, but even most politically correct historians agree that (especially in the 1751 revolt) the Indians went from Mission to Mission, not real to hacienda. The Fathers and their Majordomos (and their families) were targeted specifically.

Best-Mike

 

[cactusjumper]

Roy and Mike,

"For someone who has so much of Jesuit history in the southwest US, it is a bit surprising that you have missed some of the darker side of their record."

It's interesting to see people from 2010 judging the "dark side" of people who lived in Northern Mexico in 1751. It's a well know fact that the Spaniards of the New World felt the Jesuits treated the Indians much to kindly. The "protection" of their charges was a major point of friction between Spanish officials, mine owners, ranchers and the Jesuit Missionaries.

I have never "missed" the "darker side" of Jesuit history. It's just that I try to judge it in the surroundings of its time, rather from the perspective of a treasure hunter trying to shoehorn the priests into evil slave masters, working and beating their people into an early grave in secret mines.

When you consider the cruelties that the Spanish inflicted on the native populations of the New World, and the tortures that the natives inflicted on the Spanish.......as well as each other, I would say the Jesuits were the girlie men of their time.

From the start of the conquest of Mexico, there were places that were "unhealthy" for Europeans. They fell ill and were forced to relocate to a healthier clime. It had nothing to do with refining ore. Just like the European germs that killed the Native American by the millions, there were germs here that the Europeans had no natural defenses for.

I know both side of the Jesuit history. In Pimeria Alta, there was more good than bad.

"The revolt swept like wildfire down the Altar valley. At San Miguel de Sonoyta the Papago joined the revolt and killed Padre Enrique Rhuen, while Padre Tello met death at Caborca. Along the Santa Cruz river the Spaniards were experiencing the same fate............Within the week the Indians had succeeded in putting to torch all that was Spanish in Pimeria Alta........Luis, after striking the settlements of the Altar drainage, retreated with his warriors to the Boboquivaris located west and north of Arivaca......It is interesting to note the warfare methods employed by the natives. They struck hard at the Spanish communities quickly and over a widely dispersed area, then retired to the mountains to recuperate."Charles C. Di Peso

Sure they killed as many priests as they could find, but they also killed all of the men, women and children they could get their hands on. Not just the Spaniards, but the mission (Indian) men, women and children as well. It's quite true that Father Keller insulted Luis, so maybe they were justified.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Oroblanco]

Hola amigos,
This is a very long reply, so I must beg your indulgence; some of what is posted has been used in other threads here, but I am including it for the purpose of showing that the Jesuit priests were probably not just the 'good shepherds' taking care of the flock.

Cactusjumper wrote

Roy and Mike,

"For someone who has so much of Jesuit history in the southwest US, it is a bit surprising that you have missed some of the darker side of their record."

It's interesting to see people from 2010 judging the "dark side" of people who lived in Northern Mexico in 1751. It's a well know fact that the Spaniards of the New World felt the Jesuits treated the Indians much to kindly. The "protection" of their charges was a major point of friction between Spanish officials, mine owners, ranchers and the Jesuit Missionaries.

I have never "missed" the "darker side" of Jesuit history. It's just that I try to judge it in the surroundings of its time, rather from the perspective of a treasure hunter trying to shoehorn the priests into evil slave masters, working and beating their people into an early grave in secret mines.

When you consider the cruelties that the Spanish inflicted on the native populations of the New World, and the tortures that the natives inflicted on the Spanish.......as well as each other, I would say the Jesuits were the girlie men of their time.

First, don't forget, one of the leading protagonists of the Pima revolt, actually fled TO THE SPANIARDS to get AWAY from the padres, and complained that even here he was not safe from the wrath of the Jesuits. This is documented testimony, so I have strong doubts this was said just to have any kind of an excuse for killing Spaniards. More probably, the truth is between the two versions - Luis Oacpagigua likely had acted arrogantly etc and Keller (and other Jesuits) had also treated the Indios with some brutal punishments, a bit heavy-handed. The colonial governor did pardon the Indians whom had blamed the Jesuits for mistreatment, which would be odd and politically dangerous if it were un-true. <Captain Luis O went to Spanish prison, and one was executed {Pedro de la Cruz "Chihuahua"} but most Indians were pardoned.> Father Nentvig was also NOT the only padre who was given advance warning;

"The uprising began in the villages to the west from where it passed to these of the north. Of these, the first to riot was the village of Tubac, where they intended to kill Juan de Figueroa. News of the insurrection passed from Tubac to San Xavier del Bac where I was governor and where the natives of the mission were stirred up mainly by the man who was captain at that time and another Indian who is now imprisoned at Tubac for being an hechicero (witch doctor). These conspired and agitated to kill Father Francisco Pauer but the people did not do it because of my pleas and supplications. I quickly informed the Father of the danger, asking him to avoid disaster by fleeing the village. The father promptly left with two other Spaniards on horses I provided. I went with him six or seven leagues and when I felt he was safe I returned to my village. There the people were burning the Father’s house and the church, or ramada, where Mass was said. It had not been furnished up to now. They were also doing other mischief with the pack animals and cattle of the mission and they killed some sheep which the Father had given me. After committing these crimes most of the people went to join up with the other rebels. However, my band and I, along with some others, although we left the village and fled to the mountain, we never joined the rebels."
Cristóbal, Governor of San Xavier, October 19, 1754
(AGI, Guadalajara 419, 3m-12, page 23)

The villages in which the hostilities, burnings, and killings were committed are Sáric, where Captain General Luis is a native, Tubutama, Santa Teresa, Oquitoa, Átil, Pitiquito, Caborca, Bisani, San Miguel de Sonoitac, Busani, Aquimuri, Arizona, and Arivaca. In these villages, as well as the Realito de Oquitoa, a few more than one hundred persons of both sexes and all ages are counted dead. Among these the said Comisario Cristóbal Yañes, Romero, and Nava perished. The Reverend Fathers Tomás Tello and Enrique Ruhen, missionaries of Caborca and San Miguel de Sonoitac, also died. All of these fatalities took place on the twentieth and twenty-first of last month. Santos Antonio de Otero, San Ignacio, December 10, 1751
(AGI, Guadalajara 419, 3m-36, pages 29-30)

My Beloved Father Visitor, Felipe Segesser:
I am sure Your Reverence has already learned from other sources of the uprising in this Pimería, but I will give you the details of its condition. On Sunday the twenty-first of this month at sunrise, the Pimas struck at the house and church of Tubutama -- that is to say, Captain Luis and his sergeant, the instigators of this uprising, with those of Tubutama. Because Father Juan had gotten word of the uprising at midnight, he borrowed a donkey and stole away secretly to Tubutama where he joined the Father [Sedelmayr] and two wounded soldiers, some four residents, and the mayordomo. The insurgents burned the house and the church. The Fathers and vecinos fortified themselves in the patio with a barricade of pack saddles and fought until Tuesday night when the two Fathers and two vecinos escaped on foot to the mountain. There a friendly Indian from Magdalena loaned them a horse and guided them on a circuitous route. Father Jacobo arrived at Santa Ana on Wednesday night, wounded by three arrows. Padre Juan, alone and on foot, got lost and strayed way off the route, but they found him yesterday afternoon. They also brought him to Santa Ana to a house where the other vecinos had gathered. The residents from San Lorenzo gathered at San Ignacio. Now we wait by the hour for the appearance of the enemy.
The rebels burned Caborca at the same time and killed the Father and those who were with him, as well as others who were in the mines and mining camps. At the same time they killed a lot of people in Oquitoa, Sáric, Arivaca, Tubac, etc., and burned whatever churches there were. Father Enrique and his mayordomo and a servant are all dead, and thus is the account of everyone. All of the Papagos have joined with Luis. I convened a general meeting on Sunday night on instruction from a servant of the Father Visitor. I called one of my officials at night and told him not to frighten these people, but to go. He left and with hardship went to the village. They resolved in their meeting that all those who could (which amounted to a few criollos of the village and all of those from Ímuris) should leave. Casimiro Ureño set out for Ures, notifying those of Cucurpe and Toape of the uprising. They have stopped at Toape and are waiting for me but I am afraid to leave. The insurgents have also stolen some things from the Yaquis who fled, but the Pimas have done nothing to the Yaquis and one of them is with Captain Luis north of Guevavi. All the people of Santa María have left for good, although some did return. Those from Cocóspera still remain peaceful. At San Xavier there were seventeen men who got the Father out alive.
The political authorities have made various requests of the Lord Governor, none of which have been filled yet. I do not know who was sent away from Terrenate but at Fronteras the people have all gone. If the Indians should attack here we are in grave danger of losing everyone. As your life endures, Your Reverence, will you insist that the governor send as much help as he can promptly to take back what we have lost and strike the rebels with a decisive blow. Right now, the people here cannot set foot outside of their houses because of the great fear. And there are very few gente de razón to defend the Fathers in the north. Indeed, they already killed Julian near Guevavi, as I wrote from here yesterday -- Friday. On Saturday, however, knowledge was gained that those who were separated from Captain Luis went with their chief to the mountain called the Cerro del Chile, saying that the Spaniards were coming to destroy them. The Spanish captains are in Janos for a time and, thus, we cannot hope for any help from that quarter. In my letters I have not asked for anything else from Your Reverence, or the Father Visitor, or his resources. By my calculations, eighty-two vecinos have already died and I do not know what has happened in the north. I have frankly been working under cover for Father Salvador (de la Peña). I am committed to Holy Sacrifice for Your Reverence and ask God to keep you many years.San Ignacio, November 27, 1751
From Your Reverence’s minor servant in Christ, Gaspar Stiger
Gaspar Stiger to Felipe Segesser, San Ignacio, November 27, 1751
(AGI, Guadalajara 419, 3m-48, pages 43-45)

I realize that we have covered a lot of this before, but is it not apparent, that the padres were specifically a main target of the angry Pimas, along with their churches? The fact that so many padres escaped destruction is due to the efforts of the friendly Pimas whom were clearly in the minority! I also put that passage in bold about the mines and mining camps, hint hint.

I am not the cause of the rebellion. Those who have caused it are Fathers Jacobo Sedelmayr, Ignacio Xavier Keller, and Joseph Garrucho, because of the severity with which they and their mayordomos treat the Indians. They have also infuriated and aggrieved the Captain General of the Nation, Don Luis. He left his village in the month of September with many armed Indians to make a campaign against the Apaches. He was to go in company with the Captain of Terrenate, Don Santiago Ruiz de Ael, but when he arrived at Santa María Suamca he was informed that the said Captain, Don Santiago, had already left his presidio. The Captain, Don Luis, then went to see Father Ignacio Keller, minister of the said village, to wish him good day and to learn the route he should take in order to most quickly catch up with the said Captain of Terrenate.
With no more having been said than that, the Father gave the following response: "You are a dog to come here and ask me that. You can go wherever you want, or not go at all. It would be better if you remained behind. You act like you are trying to be a Spaniard by the arms you are carrying. You are not worthy to go about in this manner. You should be in a breechcloth with bow and arrows like a Chichemeco, and without a servant (because he had in his company an Indian Servant).
And so he went away with his companions. This captain says the Father must have been drunk, because he drinks a lot. From there he returned to his village of Sáric, very sad and disconsolate because of the mistreatment he had received from the said Father Keller and the disdain with which he was treated.
Telling me of this occurrence, he said to me, “Brother, I am possessed with this evil of serving in this charge that was conferred upon me by the Father Visitor and confirmed by the Lord Governor in the name of the King. I accepted it in order to be Captain General of my nation and because the Fathers could not now scorn me in any way, since they would have to do as the King commanded. But because the Fathers detest us we are already lost. So, don’t say anything to me now about how we should love the laws of God. It is better that we should live with our liberty. Already, I do not want these arms or this uniform. Now I will betray all the Spaniards.”
In effect, this is what he did. Afterwards I went to the village of Guevavi on the occasion of the fiesta that is celebrated in honor of Señor San Miguel Arcángel. I arrived at the house of Father Minister, Joseph Garrucho, carrying the bastón (cane) of the sergeant of Captain Don Luis. So, he bid me enter his presence where he spoke very indignantly to me in front of many people, saying when I was there, “You are a dog because you are carrying that bastón. Don’t come here disturbing the people. If it was not for the day that this is, I would have you given a hundred lashes with a whipping stick.”
After saying this he snatched the bastón from my hand and commanded me to leave the village, saying that if I ever returned or if he even heard of me setting foot in the village, he would have his justicia administer a hundred lashes in his presence.
To this I said, grasping the title which I carried on my chest, “My Father, I carry this bastón by virtue of this title of sergeant, granted to me by the Lord Governor, that I might assist my brother, Captain Don Luis.”
But he responded even more angrily, saying, “I do not want to see that title. The Governor cannot grant titles without license from the Fathers. We have a cédula from the King concerning that very thing.”
The Father kept my bastón and I went away very sadly and afflicted to the village of Sáric and said to Captain Don Luis, “Brother, I am no longer your sergeant,” recounting what had happened with Father Garrucho.
To this the said Captain replied, “I was possessed of this evil but now I have taken the demon into my body. Now, if we do not finish our work we will lose everything.” Then in the presence of three or four Indians (whose names I do not remember, except one who was called Cipriano), the execution of the uprising was discussed in consultation. The said Captain asserted that one day the Indians would strike in all places, killing Fathers Jacobo Sedelmayr, Ignacio Xavier Keller, and Joseph Garrucho because these were the greatest offenders. Sometime after this consultation it happened that Father Jacobo Sedelmayr wrote a letter to Father Juan Nentvig, minister of Sáric, telling him that he should punish me and not to allow me into the village until it could be said that I was subdued. The reason I was not subdued is because of the animosity the Fathers had for me because I was the sergeant of Captain Don Luis, and because I was so persecuted by them. So because of this and because the fires of rebellion were getting very hot, I decided to leave the village and went to live among the Spaniards.
With this purpose I went to the ranch of Don Bernardo de Urrea to look for my horses, and then I returned to get my children with whom I went to Agua Caliente. Even then I was not safe from the persecution of the Fathers, because Lieutenant Don Cristóbal Yañez told me, “You must leave here because I have a letter from Father Jacobo Sedelmayr instructing me to give you fifty lashes and banish you from these parts.” I then went to the San Luis Valley to live with my foster parents, the Romeros. However, the truth is, when I said good-bye to Captain Don Luis, he told me, “Go, Brother. Take your children because the Fathers are after you. Stay in the SanLuisValley among the Spaniards, observing the forces that they have so that you can provide me with information about them when the time is right. I will secretly notify you of that proper time through a relative, to the end that you can come join us in Tubac. I will wait for you there.”
However, I did not go there, nor did he send for me to come. And I did not have intention of going there because I wanted to stay among the Spaniards -- and this is the truth. Before the time referred to is when the Indians were rigorously harassed by the way the Father and the mayordomos treated them. They had not resolved to rebel until the said quarrels transpired. They were also irritated because Juan María Romero, Father Joseph Garrucho’s mayordomo, and Joseph de Nava seized some Indians and were taking them to the village of Arivaca to turn them over to Padre Garrucho to punish them. One of the Indians, a relative of Captain Don Luis, seeing that one of those to be punished was his son, shot an arrow at Juan María Romero, wounding him in the arm. Although it was not a serious wound, they lanced the Indian and turned the others over to Padre Garrucho to punish them further. And, the Father also chastised them.
All of this I declare: since the Fathers have not always been friendly, and since he was the only one who could remedy everything, to tell you the truth, Sir, I boldly spoke to the aforementioned Captain and said, “Brother, we must all meet together and go see the Lord Governor.”
To this he responded, “I have already seen that the Lord Governor loves us very much, Brother, and for him I am sorry, but we must say, ‘Sir, we have had enough!’ because I am outraged.
Pedro de la Cruz Chihuahua, Santa María Suamca, November 29, 1751
(AGI, Guadalajara 419, Francisco Padilla Testimony, 3m-55, pages 28-35)

There is no need to "shoehorn" the Jesuits into what they did, what bothers me is the MODERN efforts to deny and erase those darker blotches. Why would a rebel Pima flee TO the evil enslaving brutal Spaniards, if the Jesuits had been the gentle 'girlie men' of the scenario? That simply won't make sense, and it is not only in the 1751 revolt that we find this apparent paradox. The Jesuits of South America made a number of complaints about their Indians running away from the reducions TO the Spanish mines where they learn every vice and sin etc and cannot be induced to return, even when promised a gold mine if they will. The Jesuits have much more strange history (as in politics) than any other Catholic or Protestant group - none have the record of being expelled from so many countries on so many occasions, of being officially ordered to be suppressed, etc as well as being implicated in some of the darkest conspiracies. The Jesuits were the largest slave-owners in Maryland at one time, and were found to have quite a number of slaves when expelled from Louisiana by the French. The image of the kindly gentleman-priest may well be accurate for SOME Jesuits, but will hardly fit them as a whole. There was a reason why the Pimas specifically targeted the Jesuit churches and homes of the padres, and not just the Spaniards.

We will likely never agree on this whole issue amigo, for what I get from the various sources is apparently quite different from what you are getting from the very same sources. That is okay however, at least until someone appears on CNN TV with a newly-found Jesuit treasure which would seal the dispute.

Good luck and good hunting amigos, I hope you all find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco

 

[gollum]

Joe,

Once again, you seem to miss what you yourself are saying! If the Indians were treated so kindly by the Jesuits, then WHY WERE THEY TARGETED AT ALL?? Shouldn't the Indians have attacked the Spanish settlers and soldiers, then avoided the kindly Fathers?

If you know anything at all about Father Polzer SJ, then you know that he would have NEVER put anything in print that would disparage the Order. The following passage is from his book:

Regulacions de 1715 de Padre Alonso de Arrivillaga

11. Some have been so interested in temporal gains, that they have obliged the Indians to continual labor to the extent that the Indians have been unable to attend their own crops; thus the laymen have had reason to calumniate us regarding the Indians' situation and even to claim that we have enslaved the natives along with other serious charges.

If the Jesuits have let that information be published through Father Polzer SJ, imagine how much worse it was most likely to have been?

That is just one tidbit.

I don't think the Jesuits were any worse than the Spanish, but I also don't believe they treated their Indian Converts as well as history would have us believe. The Jesuits did great and wonderful things around the world. They also did a LOT of things that, due to their power and influence, have been covered up, and not recognized. Treatment of their charges, possessing riches, and mining are just three.

Nothing to do with disparaging the Order to provide evidence of wealth, just getting the truth out.

Best-Mike

 

[Oroblanco]

Gollum posted

Regulacions de 1715 de Padre Alonso de Arrivillaga

11. Some have been so interested in temporal gains, that they have obliged the Indians to continual labor to the extent that the Indians have been unable to attend their own crops;

I just wanted to highlight that portion for our amigo Joe (and our readers whom are not actively posting) that supposed rule of three days labor for the padres out of a week, three for their own labor and one day of rest, was clearly not being followed even to the point that complaints had arisen and the Jesuits went so far as to write another rule about it. "Temporal gains" - the very thing that treasure hunters seek, profits, wealth, TREASURES. The "good padres" were very busy men with all of their "labors" - cattle and sheep ranching, cultivating fields, baptisms, marriages etc little wonder that the Franciscans found the Pimas to be virtually un-educated in the Catholic faith if you think about it.
Oroblanco

 

[cactusjumper]

Roy and Mike,

I don't know how I can make my position any clearer. The Jesuits in the final analysis were just men. As such they had all the frailties of the rest of us. In Roy's quote in bold, "some" does not equate to all, or even many. It means some.

You will forgive me if I take Charles Di Peso's characterization of who the Pima "targeted", which in plain English says.........everyone, over your own conclusions. Now it's true that Di Peso was not a treasure hunter in the purest sense of the word, but he knew Pima history forward and backward.

Like all men he was not perfect, much like the Jesuits, which is why he made a mistake, in my opinion, as well as many of his peers, and placed the original location of Tumacacori in the wrong place. Despite that, his historical knowledge of the Upper Pima was head and shoulders above many in his field.

".....little wonder that the Franciscans found the pimas to be virtually un-educated in the Catholic faith if you think about it."

This statement does not match the history that I have read. When you say "Franciscans" can you give us a source for that information. Did it come from many Franciscans, or was it just a few. When Father Kino died there just wasn't anyone to fill his shoes. Many of natives went back to the old ways, mainly because they didn't have regular visits from the Jesuits. That's the history that I have read, perhaps you have read something better.

It may be that everything you say about the Jesuits is true, I wasn't there......and neither were you.

I was a treasure hunter who believed in Jesuit treasure, so I have argued your side of the debate for years. The facts on the ground and historically, don't support my old position.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Infosponge]

Good afternoon to each and every one of you,

If you ever get a chance to read or acquirer a copy of Russel Charles Ewing's Dissertation titled "The Pima uprising, 1751-1752: a study in Spain's Indian policy" I highly recommend it! For it is very telling, and the most detailed blow by blow account I have ever read.

Sincerely,

Infosponge

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

OK ! OK ! sponge now that you have given me the teaser, where is the rest of it?

Don Jose de La Mancha