Peglegs Black Gold Nuggets

[gollum]

Re: Pegleg's Black Gold Nuggets

Hey Oro,

You're right about the train station. It was Mitchell (sorry).

The reason I know about the general location of where Black Gold Nuggets were found is because I know somebody who transported a person to an area near Ocotillo Wells (along the 78). This was in the 60's. Wouldn't let him (my guy) get out of the truck. It wasn't on a hill, it was in a deep ravine/wash. The guy was gone about 45 minutes, and came back with several nuggets (no metal detector). I just know the approximate location of where the truck was parked. The location was backed up in a book by George Mroczkowski. Same general location, and in a dry wash. I don't think anybody could have wandered further than 2 miles (and back) in around 45 minutes. I've been out there several times. There are so many dry washes, ravines, and the like, it's tough to get the same spot. Also, guessing what ravines have been there for almost 50 years, and which ones washed out later, and which ones the winds have filled up with sand, is a little daunting.

PegLeg found nuggets in an area of three flat topped mountains/buttes. This could be almost anywhere, but it does describe the area SouthWest of the Salton Sea, in the area I circled. When you put all the little clues together, from different finders over the years: Three flat topped mountains, Train Station, Other Black Coated Rocks, Area of Ocotillo Wells


Best,

Mike

 

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[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Re: Pegleg's Black Gold Nuggets

hi I am having fun watching two gentlemen actually using their brains for research. You both have valid reasons and theories, I have a third after revising the data that you have presented, however I will leave Peggers Gold for you two to sort out between yourselves.

One word of caution , do not rely too heavily upon any reported data, in most cases it has passed between two or more people before being made public, need I say more?.

Someone like John Mitchell would certainly not publish the correct or precise data if he ever intended to possibly go back again, would you? I have Mitchells' Rose's, and Byrds stories on Tayopa, all are full of serious discrepancies. If I had attempted to find Tayopa with the data in their stories, it would still be lost.

Also, I am curious about being lost ?? I know that the first thing that either of you would do, is to thoroughly orient yourselves using any known maps or other information before even entering the area. There is no logical reason for being basically lost to the point that you would need a RR station to find your way back, and conversely where you have been. There were excellent maps available to Mitchell.

Yes, Gold covered with a copper layer would oxidize black, and if it had a coating of a water soluble iron mineral it would turn black also. So both of you are correct in this respect..

Go gentlemen go, I am fascinated.

Tropical Tramp

 

[gollum]

Re: Pegleg's Black Gold Nuggets

I just simply believe that are probably black gold nuggets in several places. I haven't seen them, but I trust that Desert magazine had received some samples from the man who wrote the story. His story was also that he would not go back. He even gave the general location of where he found them. How much was true? Who knows, but when you add that with all the other stories (Pegleg's three flat mountaintops, RR Station, My source, George Mroczkowski's Book, and the Desert Magazine Story), this adds up to the general area SouthWest of The Salton Sea. Most people believe somewhere in the vicinity of the Fish Creek Mountains. My guy says North of them. I think the nuggets in the ravines were washed down from the mountains. If I can find ONE ravine with ONE nugget, I would know where to go from there! Can anyone say "Needle in a haystack?"

Mike

 

[Oroblanco]

Re: Pegleg's Black Gold Nuggets

Greetings friends Real de Tayopa and Gollum,
I agree with both of you - first in that virtually all records of lost mines and buried treasures have some fatal flaw in the descriptions of where they are, if they did not have the flaw these mines would not be lost. The trick is in finding what that error was, and if it was deliberate the task is that much more difficult.

I am also convinced that there are at minimum three different sites with black-crusted gold nuggets, and all located generally around the Salton sea. If a person had enough time and was diligent and methodical, I am certain you will find at least one of these sites - and there could be as many as seven. My biggest point was not to limit your search only to one portion of that area, though there very well could be more locations in that SW corner as well. Perhaps it IS wrong NOT to limit your search area, for at least you can then do a more thorough search of that limited area and be relatively certain whether it is there or not. I have spent more weeks trekking around that basin than I care to admit, without finding Pegleg's gold, and now rather wish that I had at least gone over any one mountain range so thoroughly that I could rule it out. I can't! I can cross off a number of areas, but these are scattered all over the map with huge areas still un-searched.

I would add here that it is surprisingly easy to get lost in that region too. I did not personally, as I learned early in my adventures to be sure of where I was going, but my partner one morning told me he was going up into a particular canyon in the Chuckwallas, as he had a "hunch" that might be the area (there was a flat topped hill near the crest, one of dozens in the area) and he had seen quite a lot of black sands at the mouth of that canyon. He knew the same topo maps I had studied and (I thought) always carried a compass, told me he would be back by dinner time and headed off. I had several small hills off to the east I wanted to check with the metal detector, and left camp too. When I got back, my partner ought to have been there first but I didn't worry until it was getting dark. To make a long story short I did manage to find him, lost in a maze of small canyons that were so complex it was hard to find our way back even with a map and compass! He admitted that he was sure glad that he got found, as he was about to give up and try to find a place to sleep for the night, having already drank ALL his water and no, he had forgotten to bring along his compass. He said when he got to the top of the flat topped hill, sure enough it was covered with the black stones but not a one even gave a false signal for the detector so he looked down the canyons and thought he could see which one to take to get back to camp, and proceeded to get thoroughly lost. I found him several miles from where he was supposed to be, and headed to the west away from camp - he would eventually have come out to a road but only if he could keep on a straight line, which is questionable. I will add here that this partner only one other time got lost, having managed to track his way through thick bush in the north country un-erringly but his first couple of trips to the desert seemed to throw his sense of direction. Anyway always take precautions NOT to get lost, anyone reading this for advice, and be sure to let someone know where you are heading and when to expect you to be back.

Oroblanco

"Well, Art is Art, isn't it? Still, on the other hand, water is water. And east is east and west is west and if you take cranberries and stew them like applesauce they taste much more like prunes than rhubarb does. Now you tell me what you know." --Groucho Marx

"I've got the brain of a four year old. I'll bet he was glad to be rid of it." --Groucho Marx

 

[gollum]

Re: Pegleg's Black Gold Nuggets

I totally agree about the whole getting lost thing. In Mroczkowski's Book, one time he and a couple of guys were looking for the 10 oxcarts of treasure near Ocotillo Wells (mid sixties). They didn't know it, but at the very same time. less than 2 or three miles away, a guy was dying of exposure and dehydration. He went into the same area, looking for the same treasure. He had one small bottle of water (one quart). They found his body the following week.

Moral of the story: Be Prepared (Boy Scout Motto)!

mike

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Re: Pegleg's Black Gold Nuggets

HI Gentlemen, my point was that both of you have been in that country many times, and other than a bit of temp. loss of local orientation, you are still here and so did/do know where you were effectively.

This is because by using both your intelligence and pre-study orientation, you knew where you were within a few hrs of travel at any time. Out side of some discomfort, you were in no great danger. The others were like ants, moving around without constantly rechecking.

The mere fact that you are in a relatively mountainous region gives you so many land marks to point on that unless you have an accident you are in no great danger of being wholly lost. You actually have whole mountain ranges to aid you.

I agree that in some of the deep winding washes/arroyos, you can become temporarily disorientated, but by simply climbing up high enough to see some of the surrounding skyline you quickly get yourself back on track.

However, for a completely unprepared city guy, it could be easily fatal. This is why anyone following your leads should also listen very very carefully to what you say about traveling in that country looking for lost mines etc.

Sorry to interrupt, keep going my friends.

Tropical Tramp

 

[pegleglooker]

Re: Pegleg's Black Gold Nuggets

WOW.... you guys are GREAT!!!!! so many clues and so many different ways to look at this legend. I have been researching this for 2 yrs and take alot of things in consideration. like the story of Charlie Brooks who was a freighter in the late 1800's and early 1900's who said he used to run cattle from Mexico to Beaumont... why? because that is where the RR stopped. there was RR in Yuma as well but nothing in between. The story of the Indian squaw was later when the union pacific was laying track to connect the two. afterwards the cattle runs stopped in Yuma because of the RR. In desert magazine there is a story of Brooks' granddaughter or daughter i can't remember trying to look for the gold where he said it would be... but she never found it...I find that if you read only the treasure stories one really misses out. but if you take these stories and try to prove them with "fact" via the historical society it sends you in another direction that has more fact then fiction... mind you i am not saying which one is correct but which one you can prove...for example a story in a san franciso newspaper dated 1866 tells of pegleg and his partner mr marshall ( i think it was marsahll) getting lost after a sand storm and it was marshall that climed the hill and found the gold not pegleg... Fact good question... but why would a guy with a pegleg climb a hill to look around when someone with 2 good legs could this article came out just after pegleg died and i'm sure the reporter interviewed pegleg's friend who was with him in at the end... story goes that his friend would bring whiskey to the hospital for pegleg...Fact don't know...but how would a reporter get this info and from who?? the earliest story say that pegleg was headed to warner's ranch and got lost... others say he went to san bernardino... there are reports of pegleg cashing gold in san bernardino and reports of him having gold at warner's... Fact or fiction who knows for sure...if one can PROVE any of this i would love to hear from you.. I would be willing to share what i have found with anyone who has info i don't... if there is gold there, even a small share how cool would it be to be known as the one who found it.... that NOONE can ever take from you.....looking forward to your feedback thankx..............

 

[gollum]

Re: Pegleg's Black Gold Nuggets

Hey PLL,

Great additions to the story.

I have heard stories that Pegleg's gold actually came out of The Amboy Crater, but I know one thing for certain; black gold nuggets have been found in the vicinity of Ocotillo Wells, Ca. I have a witness statement, and pics (from an old book). Like I said before, I can get to within a couple of miles the location. But out there, a couple of miles might as well be a hundred miles! If I could find the wash where they are, I could trace that to the place in the mountains they came from. That's the only piece missing from the puzzle (a key piece though).

Best,

Mike

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Re: Pegleg's Black Gold Nuggets

=gollum ]

That in mind, I believe that any gold placer nuggets that sit in the desert sun, untouched for hundreds of years, will turn black, and hence there could be black gold nuggets in many locations.
Mike
*************

HI, some of the Oriental religeous shrine domes have a thin sheathing of Gold, which has not changd in a thousand years or so. Gold is known for it's resistance to chemical attack, including solar activity, however, when combined with a coating of Ferrrous or cupperous materiels, they in turn will react to dark brown or black.

Tropical Tramp

 

[Jeffro]

Re: Pegleg's Black Gold Nuggets

Almost threw this one out, until I saw a glint on one corner where it was struck by another rock. I have since hit it with nitric, heated it until red- with little results. The corners you see showing now are from rubbing during tumbling.

Was black when I started, looks more brown now. More resembles an iron encrustation than rock, and its quartz-free.

 

[gollum]

Re: Pegleg's Black Gold Nuggets

=gollum ]

That in mind, I believe that any gold placer nuggets that sit in the desert sun, untouched for hundreds of years, will turn black, and hence there could be black gold nuggets in many locations.
Mike
*************

HI, some of the Oriental religeous shrine domes have a thin sheathing of Gold, which has not changd in a thousand years or so. Gold is known for it's resistance to chemical attack, including solar activity, however, when combined with a coating of Ferrrous or cupperous materiels, they in turn will react to dark brown or black.

Tropical Tramp

Absolutely. Depending on how much copper is in a nugget, may make it black. There are several places where desert varnish has grown on smaller surface rocks, and given them a black coating. Since desert varnish is mostly a clay with manganese oxide in it. It would not necesarily be attacking the gold, just coating it. I'll bet if we took a nugget, and mixed clay in water, and slowly sprayed a very fine mist of the mixture at the nugget, it would eventually cover it. Then bake that coated nugget in the hot desert sun for 500 years, and I bet it turns black!

Best,

Mike

 

[DesertRat]

Re: Pegleg's Black Gold Nuggets

I've been out south of Tule Wash for the past month just lookin' to be lookin' . Got tired of chasing Fig Tree John in the Santa Rosa mts and gettin chased by the red ants in Grave Wash! I came across a unique find south of Tule that'll I'll post later in the fossil section. According to George Jefferson, the paleontologist of the Anza Borrego State Park these psuedo fossils are over 4 million years old. They're a variety of sandstone concretions from the Arroyo Diablo or Borrego Formations.

There's a lot of weird things out here. I haven't found any of Peg Leg's gold but tomorrow is a new day. Take a look at the rectangular shape in this pic. It's out in the middle of nowhere. I believe its the foundation of an old govt. building. Not sure but I'll let you know what I find.

 

[Oroblanco]

Re: Pegleg's Black Gold Nuggets

Greetings everyone,

I was perusing the CA treasure atlas and found this list of possible sites for Pegleg's gold:

A: West of the Salton Sea
B: Across the Colorado river near Picacho and towards the Cargo Muchacho and Chocolate mountains
C: SW of the Salton sea
D: In the Imperial Valley between San Bernardino and the Chocolate mountains
E: 20 E of Niland near the Chocolate mountains
F: In the Santa Rita mountains
G: Between Mecca and Blythe, south of I-10
H: NE of the Salton Sea
I: In the Chuckwalla mountains in the area of Guilliday well
J: 3 miles E of Jamacha

This covers a great deal of area. Desert magazine editors were convinced the area is to the SW of the Salton sea in what is now the Anza Borrego state park, and some T-net-ers are of the same opinion, as you can read. It is possible (I will say probable) that there are more than one such deposit, as gold nuggets in this area can and do get crusted with "desert varnish" over time, though often only on any exposed surfaces, if only part of a nugget were exposed to the air the underside would not become coated. According to the AZ dept of Geology, the varnish takes thousands of years to form microns thick, not hundreds of years. I have their articles here (somewhere, lost in the heap of stuff never un-packed) but it may be online too for that matter. On the plus side, this is some of the most beautiful country in the southwest, so worth the trip if for nothing else but seeing the country.

Jeffro - my goodness I hope you have the spot where you found that well marked! I doubt it is one of a kind! The nitric acid should have removed a desert varnish, or beating on it with a hammer if it is solid gold underneath, which you would have a hint because it would be very heavy for its size. If it does not feel too heavy, your sample is ore, not a nugget and would be worth tracing down the source - might be a good thick vein of it to make you $$$$$$.

Desertrat, very interesting photos! That old foundation photo seems to show some old trails leading to it, a site well worth doing some MDing around! Keep us posted?

Roy - Oroblanco

"The secret of life is honesty and fair dealing. If you can fake that, you've got it made." --Groucho

 

[Jeffro]

Re: Pegleg's Black Gold Nuggets

I know its not one like you guys are describing, but I thought it interesting enough to post, as a reminder to be careful what you throw away. These black nuggets you guys are talking about could be easily missed if going by sight, they'd look like a bunch of other rocks out there...

I have no idea what is coating this thing. May be rock, but it doesn't QUITE appear that way. Just enough to leave me dubious. May be caliche, but the nitric would've bubbled pretty good at that? I dunno. Anyways, not all gold appears like gold, as you well know. This piece is really small, but its a curiosity. Maybe half pennyweight or so.

You are probably correct in your thinking that this may be a piece close to the source, lots of pockets in this country where I found this one. Gonna have to get back up there one of these days, lol!

 

[bakergeol]

Re: Pegleg's Black Gold Nuggets

Wasn't one theory about Pegleg's gold was an argument that it was massacre gold. Spanish travelers carrying gold were wiped out by the Indians and this is what had been found. Did not the writer to the Desert USA who had found the nuggets mention that they were 10% copper? As their composition was unlike any being mined in the region this would support their reasoning. Wasn't there a Spanish artifact found also?

Sure makes for some interesting reading.


George

What the writer to the Desert USA also found were two artifacts. One was a buckle which apparently came from an aminal harness. The other was an ancient sword scabbard which was identified as probably Spanish and from the first half of the 18th century. These with the copper content not native to the region has led to an old Spanish massacre site theory.

This theory implies that much of the finder's story except for initially finding the nuggets is a fabrication. It would explain why no claim was ever filed on the property. After the surface nuggets were exhausted it would have been a simple thing to file and sell the claim for millions to a mining company and simply walk away.

George

 

[gollum]

Re: Pegleg's Black Gold Nuggets

Wasn't one theory about Pegleg's gold was an argument that it was massacre gold. Spanish travelers carrying gold were wiped out by the Indians and this is what had been found. Did not the writer to the Desert USA who had found the nuggets mention that they were 10% copper? As their composition was unlike any being mined in the region this would support their reasoning. Wasn't there a Spanish artifact found also?

Sure makes for some interesting reading.


George

What the writer to the Desert USA also found were two artifacts. One was a buckle which apparently came from an aminal harness. The other was an ancient sword scabbard which was identified as probably Spanish and from the first half of the 18th century. These with the copper content not native to the region has led to an old Spanish massacre site theory.

This theory implies that much of the finder's story except for initially finding the nuggets is a fabrication. It would explain why no claim was ever filed on the property. After the surface nuggets were exhausted it would have been a simple thing to file and sell the claim for millions to a mining company and simply walk away.

George

Hey George,

Locating a claim on the nuggets is not quite as simple as you suggest. If the stated location is correct, then it could lie within the boundaries of Anza-Borrego Desert State Park. It could also lie on the US Naval Bombardment Range. It could also lie on or around several company owned pieces of property out there. You could not locate a claim on any of that type of property in California.

The guy who supposedly found Peg Leg's Black Nuggets in the Desert Magazine Article never claimed to have found anything other than the nuggets. I just reread the article to make sure. He NEVER claimed to find any buckles or sword scabbards. You are thinking of another story altogether (it is in the same area though).

The story about finding the buckle and sword (NOT Scabbard) was from George Mroczkowski. In the late sixties, his crew went out to the battle site, and found many relics that proved the "TALE" true! I won't go into all the details of the San Felipe Massacre story. It is elsewhere on this site. They also found a gold cross with garnets, and a little brass reliquary box, a hilt from a Moorish Sword, a piece of a silver candelabra. See pics of finds below.

Best,

Mike

 

[bakergeol]

Re: Pegleg's Black Gold Nuggets

Wasn't one theory about Pegleg's gold was an argument that it was massacre gold. Spanish travelers carrying gold were wiped out by the Indians and this is what had been found. Did not the writer to the Desert USA who had found the nuggets mention that they were 10% copper? As their composition was unlike any being mined in the region this would support their reasoning. Wasn't there a Spanish artifact found also?

Sure makes for some interesting reading.


George

What the writer to the Desert USA also found were two artifacts. One was a buckle which apparently came from an animal harness. The other was an ancient sword scabbard which was identified as probably Spanish and from the first half of the 18th century. These with the copper content not native to the region has led to an old Spanish massacre site theory.

This theory implies that much of the finder's story except for initially finding the nuggets is a fabrication. It would explain why no claim was ever filed on the property. After the surface nuggets were exhausted it would have been a simple thing to file and sell the claim for millions to a mining company and simply walk away.

George

Hey George,

Locating a claim on the nuggets is not quite as simple as you suggest. If the stated location is correct, then it could lie within the boundaries of Anza-Borrego Desert State Park. It could also lie on the US Naval Bombardment Range. It could also lie on or around several company owned pieces of property out there. You could not locate a claim on any of that type of property in California.

The guy who supposedly found Peg Leg's Black Nuggets in the Desert Magazine Article never claimed to have found anything other than the nuggets. I just reread the article to make sure. He NEVER claimed to find any buckles or sword scabbards. You are thinking of another story altogether (it is in the same area though).

The story about finding the buckle and sword (NOT Scabbard) was from George Mroczkowski. In the late sixties, his crew went out to the battle site, and found many relics that proved the "TALE" true! I won't go into all the details of the San Felipe Massacre story. It is elsewhere on this site. They also found a gold cross with garnets, and a little brass reliquary box, a hilt from a Moorish Sword, a piece of a silver candelabra. See pics of finds below.

Best,

Mike

Hi Mike
You know I just love this story and am glad to see it continued. I bow to your more intimate knowledge of the area regarding claim status. You are well versed in the history of the area. The article I am using is a collection of Pegleg stories called "The Lost Black Gold Nuggets of Pegleg" Research and Associates John Southworth. The finder of Pegleg's gold made a lot of correspondence with Desert Magazine including photos after his initial post. A photo of a throat section of an eighteenth century shortsword scabbard found by him was published in Desert Magazine. I am looking at the photo as we speak. It's origin was identified by Eugene B. Harris Jr. in a letter to Desert Magazine published in February of 1968. It was included in a photo of his "loot". However the question remains "Did he find this at the site"?

Of course one could argue the above simply implies a Spanish mining presence circa 1700 to 1750(The age of the scabbard). Of interest would be the depths he found those nuggets with his BFO. As an old BFO user I know full well the shallow detection range of BFOs. If he found them at both surface and extreme depths it would not suggest a massacre site(s) but just an inch or two beneath the surface perhaps. If he actually suspected it to be a massacre site and not a virgin deposit this would explain why he abandoned the site as all gold would have been recovered. However why provide the scabbard evidence if he wanted to maintain the Pegleg lost mine legend?

Well just some thoughts
George

 

[gollum]

Re: Pegleg's Black Gold Nuggets

Hey George,

I haven't seen the book you are using. Very interesting. If that is the case, then there may just be a tie-in!

In my earlier posts, I mention that I know some black nuggets were found within a couple of miles of Ocotillo Wells. The San Felipe Creek battle site is in that area also. We may have hit on something new here.

Not a tie in between the two stories, but a tie-in between the two locations! The San Sebastian Marsh Area was pretty popular with the Spanish who were travelling along the de Anza Trail. Maybe the Spanish were walking right on top of the Black Gold Nuggets, and never knew it!

VERY INTERESTING!

Best,

Mike

 

[pegleglooker]

Re: Pegleg's Black Gold Nuggets

Hey guys,
I thought it might be time to clarify a couple of things. In the time I have been researching this, I find that alot of the stories intermix with each other. Like the fact that there were at least 3 "smiths" in the general vicinty and at least 2 had peglegs. In todays world that would be strange, but, in the post civil war time, not so much. Alot of people were shot in the war, and there was many a pegleg. there were also alot of people using "smith" ( a common name ) to hide from whatever. Phillip Bailey describes 3 smiths in his notes, the 1st was a pete smith who did in fact have a pegleg ( californian 10/12/1867). jedediah smith had a brother named peter smith who has some connection to early california, and there was a stephen smith that ran a sawmill at bodega ( the 1st one in california to use steam). Then there was a renegade pegleg who mined the eastside of the colorado north of yuma sometime before 1862. then there were 2 more peter smith's one worked the weaver placers in 1862-63 but was not pegleged and finally the last smith ( also peter) deserted a english ship during the vigilante days... Its easy enough to see how these stories could intermix. I love this quote I use from bailey " the lost pegleg story, in its simplest form, is the following: Sometime after 1836, or as late as 1885, a one-legged man, known by the name of Smith, who came from somwhere and was on his way to someplace, on some unknown mission, found an enormously rich mine at a place identified by 3 black buttes.". I have a newspaper article from 4/26/1854 that states: The prospecting party under the guidance of captain thomas smith, left this city (san francisco) on wednesday, in search of gold in the region of country on the colorado, near the mouth of the virgin. They have taken provisions for 3 months, and left the city in good spirits, sanguine of success. The party numbers 21 men . there is also a follow up article that states: captain smith's party of explorers to the virgin and colorado were joined at san bernardino by 60 men. they were last heard from on the mohave. this has got to be the orginal explorer thomas l smith. according to bailey the place that smith found his gold by the virgin is supposedly under lake mead... good luck finding that one. this is the smith that keeps getting caught up in the other stories and after more than a 150 yrs this ball of string is wound tight.. some will argue this, and some will agree. but even bailey believes this. i'll stop here for now and wait to hear what everyone has to say... i have a LOT more about the other "smiths" as well.. looking for your input... thanks john

 

[Oroblanco]

Re: Pegleg's Black Gold Nuggets

Greetings Pegleglooker,
You raise a valid point - there are several Smiths which seem to have been interwoven into the legend over the years and it is one heck of a task trying to distill which are the "real" Pegleg! Now I do not like to rely too much on any book or article about any lost mine or buried treasure which is written long after the events, and try to stick to the original report, along with any other evidence which can be clearly tied in even if after the original. The oldest report of Pegleg I ever found had his name as Thomas L, not Pete or Peter, and the original tale of where the gold was located still is not clear enough to pinpoint a location but does not range as far as Lake Mead.

This mixing of stories seems to happen a LOT in these old lost mine legends, and only serve to muddy the waters and make treasure hunters go on wild goose chases. Just my opinion here, but I think a fellow is better served if he takes all those other tales (which date after the original report) with at least a grain of salt and not put too much faith in them - sticking to the original report is how some of the greatest discoveries in the history of mankind were done, like Schliemann found Troy by sticking to the original report - Homer's Iliad.
Oroblanco

"We must find a way, or we will make one." --Hannibal Barca