Why cant PI units have Visual ID?

[Newfiehunter]

Why can't PI unit's have Visual ID?

I have a question..if PI units are all metal machines...why can't they make these detectors with Visual ID? At least you can see what you are digging even in all metal mode..and have some idea of what you are digging...Just curious...

 

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[Tom_in_CA]

Re: Why can't PI unit's have Visual ID?

your question contradicts itself. On the one hand, you acknowledge that pulse machines (and their fabled depth) are "all metal machines". Then you ask why they can't have visual TID on them. Well think of it: if you can "....can see what you are digging even in all metal mode ...", then it would no longer be "all-metal", now would it? If you can have TID, then by simple definition, the machine is discriminating, because you can see it visually.

There has been rudimentary attempts at iron ID, and high verses low conductors (like on the TID for instance). But they have drawbacks, and you may loose on some of the fabled depth, if you try to start passing iron, for example. But for guys that really need them (like on jet-black-sand beaches), it's a start. It's certainly not going to be as compartmentalized in the TID as a standard coin/relic machine. The most it has now, is simple high verses low, not a multi-segmented broad range as we've all come to be spoiled by, on our coin machines.

 

[Sandman]

Re: Why can't PI unit's have Visual ID?

Ditto for me too. Besides most PI's are beach detectors as this is where they are mainly used. It would be quite difficult to install waterproof screens on water detectors that also couldn't take the pressure of water as many would wonder whey their water machine couldn't be taken diving.

 

[Newfiehunter]

Re: Why can't PI unit's have Visual ID?

Perhaps I am mistaken..but didn't JW Fisher make an underwater detector..with some sort of Analog meter.....

 

[Kentucky Kache]

Re: Why can't PI unit's have Visual ID?

If depth was your main concern, wouldn't a PI be a good machine on land?

 

[Newfiehunter]

Re: Why can't PI unit's have Visual ID?

Good point Kentucky Kache......So are PI units superior to VLF machines when it comes to depth? Never used a PI unit..so I don't really know..but a dealer told me they were...

 

[tabdog]

Re: Why can't PI unit's have Visual ID?

One thing is that modern VLF machines have a
computer prosessor chip in them to deal with the
amount of data received by the coil.

PI machines that I know of have no such chip.
But they do have circuit boards.

Ever seen a display with out some sort of a processor?

Happy Huntin,

Tabdog

 

[Kentucky Kache]

Re: Why can't PI unit's have Visual ID?

Good point Kentucky Kache......So are PI units superior to VLF machines when it comes to depth? Never used a PI unit..so I don't really know..but a dealer told me they were...

It seems most people use them for beach hunting, but if they get superior depth, why not use them for cache hunting? I guess I'll have to buy one to find out.

 

[DGDancer]

Re: Why can't PI unit's have Visual ID?

PI's work on a different principle than do VLF machiens. I'm sure someone is working on a Visual ID system
but due to the way PI's sense thier targets I dont see a good way of doing it. Even the best
machiens can only really attempt to discriminate between low and high magnetically retentive targets.
PI's pulse a target with what amounts to a modulated current. They then
listen for the "ringing" *collapse of the magnetic field induced by the pulse*
of the target. That ringing can be very loud, large targets
or targets with a high magnetic retention *ie iron*, or very quite for small targets or items with low
magnetic retention *ie gold*. VLF's dont listen for ringing induced by the field current~ they sense the
changes in the magnetic field associated with conductive targets passing thru them.

I'm sure someone is also trying to incorporate a combination unit but its kind of pointless considering
what PI's are used for. VLF's just cant punch thru mineralization like a PI.

 

[Keppy]

Re: Why can't PI unit's have Visual ID?

Every time some says i want nore depth i think i can get more depth with a Explorer than with my XLT or what ever.... I always say you want more depth.. GET A PI detector.......... then you will find all those silver dimes in the park..........

 

[Newfiehunter]

Re: Why can't PI unit's have Visual ID?

So what are the best PI detectors on the market now?

 

[Keppy]

Re: Why can't PI unit's have Visual ID?

So what are the best PI detectors on the market now?

For inland use for coins & jewelry i would say ..Garrett Infinium & Whites TDI and for in water use i think all the major brands make a good water PI detector now the ...Garrett Infinuim is a water and land detector. So it has the edge if you wanted one for both...

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Re: Why can't PI unit's have Visual ID?

oops, I had a typo when I said in my post above: " .... (like on the TID for instance).... " I meant TDI (as in, the Whites), not TID. Doh.

In any case, for those that are asking "why not use a pulse machine on land, since they go deeper?": Sure! go get any number of pulse machines on the market today, and I GUARANTEE you that you will get more depth, cut through nastier minerals, and absolutely not miss anything You're guarnteed to go deeper, and not miss whispy thin little chains and earing studs. Sure. go ahead. Have at it Here's the problem: When you've gone out an inner city junky blighted urban park (or heck, even an upscale nice new one), and you have dug the umpteenth paper clip, straight pin, birdshot pellet, etc.... from insane depths, and never progressed out of a 10 ft. square area, then ask yourself again: "why not use a PI so that I'm guaranteed not to miss anything?"

 

[Keppy]

Re: Why can't PI unit's have Visual ID?

Hey.. Every one wants more depth get that PI .. Every thing has it's draw backs.......

 

[tabdog]

Re: Why can't PI unit's have Visual ID?

Hay Guys,

http://jb-ms.com/Baron/payne.htm

That is an article by George Payne.
In the article, he describes how he
started using a processor in the VLF
machines. He describes how a VLF
detector discriminates, as well as
other things.

If you can get a grip on this, you
will have a better understanding on
why VLF detectors have digital
displays and PI machines have not
evolved to that point successfully.

http://jb-ms.com/Baron/payne.htm

Hpaay Huntin,

Tabdog

 

[Kentucky Kache]

Re: Why can't PI unit's have Visual ID?

oops, I had a typo when I said in my post above: " .... (like on the TID for instance).... " I meant TDI (as in, the Whites), not TID. Doh.

In any case, for those that are asking "why not use a pulse machine on land, since they go deeper?": Sure! go get any number of pulse machines on the market today, and I GUARANTEE you that you will get more depth, cut through nastier minerals, and absolutely not miss anything You're guarnteed to go deeper, and not miss whispy thin little chains and earing studs. Sure. go ahead. Have at it Here's the problem: When you've gone out an inner city junky blighted urban park (or heck, even an upscale nice new one), and you have dug the umpteenth paper clip, straight pin, birdshot pellet, etc.... from insane depths, and never progressed out of a 10 ft. square area, then ask yourself again: "why not use a PI so that I'm guaranteed not to miss anything?"

Yeah, I know about that. I was talking depth only.

 

[bakergeol]

Re: Why can't PI unit's have Visual ID?

The holy grail for PI folks is a PI that can accurately discriminate iron at full depth with TID abilities. This issue probably has been discussed thousands of times in the forums in the last 20 years.
Even after all these years(and broken promises) folks still view Dave Emery's remarks about his progress with the Nemesis(Pulse Devil) with keen interest and hope. (Be sure to read both pages)

http://www.findmall.com/read.php?34,1049922

At present the best PI detector able to ID iron would be the TDI or GS5 with a mag attachment.
Unfortunately, Whites was not able to come out with a TDI/MAG combo.

http://members5.boardhost.com/MetalDetecting/msg/1259290023.html

George

 

[Iron Patch]

Re: Why can't PI unit's have Visual ID?

your question contradicts itself. On the one hand, you acknowledge that pulse machines (and their fabled depth) are "all metal machines". Then you ask why they can't have visual TID on them. Well think of it: if you can "....can see what you are digging even in all metal mode ...", then it would no longer be "all-metal", now would it? If you can have TID, then by simple definition, the machine is discriminating, because you can see it visually.

Doesn't the GTI 2500 screen show targets even in all metal?

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Re: Why can't PI unit's have Visual ID?

Iron patch, you ask: "Doesn't the GTI 2500 screen show targets even in all metal?" Sure, and so do several makes of whites and others, the Etrac, etc... if you adjust them accordingly. But here is the common misconception of that setup: You are not hunting in strictly "all metal". You are hunting in a combination of the two. People have periodically thought (perhaps you too), that simply because the needle or cursor or whatever, can still bounce to the various TIDs, or simply because there is the tone ID, in with the all-metal growl background, that they must therefore, be getting all-metal depths, while acheiving discrimination! woohoo!

But this is simply not true. It may seem so, because of the following logic trick:

1) all metal mode goes deeper (a true statement for all machines)

2) you have a machine that can allow for both modes to operate at once, either in tone ID's, or needle/cursor to bounce while in the all metal mode.

3) therefore you can get all metal depths, while at the same time discriminating!

Wrong. Here's how it works: Let's say that the max depth you can get in disc, on a dime, is 8" (just for example sakes). And let's say that the max depth on that same machine you can get, on a dime, in all-metal mode, is 10" (since all-metal mode goes deeper). When you put it in the mixed modes that some machine's offer, you will not get the needle or cursor to bounce, or a tone-ID, etc... at the depths of 9 or 10". You will only get the all-metal sound at those deeper depths. For the needle/cursor/tone to bounce up to the TID, you will have to be at the 8" or less depth, no different than when you were in total disc. mode.

The reason sometimes people *think* they're getting deeper disc. depths when operating in these mixed modes, is that you are more prone to get drawn to investigate whispers, even if they didn't hit on a condutive TID the first time over it. And when you double check things your back-ground all metal heard, then you tend to double-check with a clearer swing, centering it, and "bringing it in". Also the all-metal mode hears targets further out from the coil center (since it's detection range is deeper), so you tend to hear the "edges" of things, causing you to center over this or that way. But that actual disc. depth, of where the machine can reach down to for ID purposes, has not changed whether you're in all-metal, or in disc. mode.

 

[Newfiehunter]

Re: Why can't PI unit's have Visual ID?

I was thinking along the same lines as Iron Patch...that was why I asked the question...about PI's having Visual ID...because VLF detectors with Visual ID can be in all metal mode and you can see "iron" targets so you can identify them and dig everything else..so I didn't really think my question really contradicted itself..When you hear whispers from your detector..you should always dig your target regardless of what the Visual ID says...so it would be wise not to depend on your VID all the time..