Does treasure sink in the ground?

[Frankn]

The short answer is NO. There are exceptions like quicksand, but I doubt you are T.H. in quicksand! If a coin is dropped on the ground, a certain amount of dirt is blown on it by the wind. A certain amount is shoved on it by passing people or animals but the main coverage is done by dying vegetation. The coin does not sink,it is covered. If gold, which is heavy, sunk in the ground there would be no placer gold. It would all be at the center of the earth by now. I have been on the beach and seen old coins sitting two inches above the beach on small "sand towers". The wind and tide had removed several inches of sand from the beach. When I dig here in Md. I can tell how long an object has been in the ground by the depth. It makes no difference how much it weighs. I found several objects on a past hunt that were between 3" and 4". I knew they had been in the ground since the mid 40"s in fact two pennies were dated early 40's. I found an ax head,very rusty, at 10+". I knew it had been in the ground for over 200 years. Areas with little vegetation get most coverage from wind and water. All right lay it on me, but back it up!!

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[mts]

while it might not SINK all the time* with exceptions made for loose watery ground or quicksand type places --it can and often does get "deeper in depth" over time -- from overburden covering it up

Agreed. It is likely multiple factors that cause it to be "deeper in depth". And what those factors are depends on the location, makeup of the soil, weather conditions, vegitation, and a host of other things. But I have a hard time agreeing that items don't ever "sink" and are only covered up. Unless of course, someone can explain to me why my yard is not 6" higher than my sidewalk.

 

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[Frankn]

MTS: I will make it simple for you. Archaeologist & Geologist date the age of things by the build up of the layers of earth in which they are found!!They don't use a gravity gauge!

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[mts]

MTS: I will make it simple for you. Archaeologist & Geologist date the age of things by the build up of the layers of earth in which they are found!!They don't use a gravity gauge!

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Perhaps you can actually answer the question that I have asked time and time again... please explain to me why my yard is not 6" higher than my sidewalk? While you are at it, explain to me why the bottom rung of the ladder on my swingset is not 6" closer to the ground after 10 years. Finally, explain to me why a grave marker that has been sitting on the ground for over 200 years isn't completely covered by this stuff that you say is constantly covering everything up?

Again, I'm not saying that stuff doesn't get covered up. But I can't buy your theory that no sinking occurs whatsover unless you can at least answer the questions I've posed.

 

[mts]

MTS: I will make it simple for you. Archaeologist & Geologist date the age of things by the build up of the layers of earth in which they are found!!They don't use a gravity gauge!

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By the way, the buildup of layers over millions of years due to sedimentary forces from rivers, ices ages, and other well known phenomenon is a far cry from a coin dropping 6" into the ground over a period of 12 years (or longer). Finally, you appear to really be hung up on gravity. Forget gravity. There are other forces at play that you refuse to acknowledge in your arguments.

 

[Frankn]

MTS: Its more like a debate. Simple answer first. I can assure you that those people under those headstones are still 6' under! That should settle the sinking question! I can see your point about the sidewalk. At first I considered that the sidewalk doesn't wear as much as the ground, but I couldn't logic that being enough difference, so I had to dive real deep. This is heavy stuff!Einsteins theory of relativity states that the universe is like a web. The planets being piaced into it stretch the web around the planets causing pressure against the planets ie. GRAVITY! so gravity is actually a pressure in rather a pull into the planet. I hope your still with me. So, maybe the earth is being constantly pushed into its molton core and decaying vegetation replaces the surface. I'm sorry that's the best I can do in the way of a theory!

 

[mts]

MTS: Its more like a debate. Simple answer first. I can assure you that those people under those headstones are still 6' under! That should settle the sinking question! I can see your point about the sidewalk. At first I considered that the sidewalk doesn't wear as much as the ground, but I couldn't logic that being enough difference, so I had to dive real deep. This is heavy stuff!Einsteins theory of relativity states that the universe is like a web. The planets being piaced into it stretch the web around the planets causing pressure against the planets ie. GRAVITY! so gravity is actually a pressure in rather a pull into the planet. I hope your still with me. So, maybe the earth is being constantly pushed into its molton core and decaying vegetation replaces the surface. I'm sorry that's the best I can do in the way of a theory!

Those people are still 6' under because the ground they have been buried in is packed harder at that depth. It is also not subject to the same freezing and thawing cycles. And are you SURE that they are still at 6' and not actually now at 6' 6"?

As for the rest of your post I can't really follow where you are going with it. It seems like this is a simple question. I'm not asking about what happens to graves. I'm asking about why a grave marker which is only about 6 inches in height and laying right on top of the ground doesn't get completely covered after 200 years of your "sediment" being dumped on top of it? If you want to prove your theory to yourself then I think you need to answer this question truthfully. And I don't think you need to change the scientifically accepted view of gravity in order to explain it. You seem to think that some sort of sedimentary action is occuring that is covering things up. I really don't know what gravity has to do with that notion.

You might also ask yourself why it is a common practice to poor concrete footers for decks if things are not expected to sink into the ground? Things sink. The degree to which they sink is impacted by many factors. Light things sink very little in hard soil. And heavy things can sink quite a bit in soft soil/sand. What I can't buy into is a theory based on absolutes which states that coins never sink and their depth is based SOLELY on having debris/sediment deposited on top of them. I think that it is a combination of these two factors as well as several others.

Finally, I think that all I would have to do to disprove your theory is to find something that is not that old that is also buried at a greater depth than something that is older. This should be pretty easy to do and I'm sure many of the items in the "today's finds" section would fit the bill. I would wager that the reason your axe is buried 10 inches deep isn't necessarily because it has been in the ground longer. But also because it is significantly heavier. At some point you will have to look at actual objects and measure the relationship between how old/heavy something is and how deep it is. Once you do I think you'll find that you can't explain depth based on age alone.

 

[Frankn]

MTS: You just made my point!!!! You said the grave markers were laying on top of the ground........That means they didn't sink, they weren't pulled down. If you reread this topic headind you will see the question is do things sink in the ground!!!

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[wharghoul]

Frankn, for 73 years of experience behind you, I'd expect a little more logic. MTS has stated that Gravity is only one of the many variables that influence coins and 'alleged' sink rate. The most important factor in my humble opinion is density. An object will tend to sink until it's density is equal to the surrounding soil. I'm pretty sure there are about a gazillion scientists that would back me up on that one. Your question of why doesn't a casket sink further, or a house, etc....well, they do eventually, but not much because of the lack of density.

It is this density that also prevents a coin from sinking to 27 feet deep, which is why most coins from the 1800's are found within 14". The density of the soil simply won't let them sink deeper. Obviously there are slight exceptions to this general observation, but I think you get my point.

 

[Frankn]

Wharghoul:Yes I have 73 years behind me. How many years do you have behind that mask? ........ Lets things sink in liquid because of differences in specific gravity ie. density. This law does not apply to solids. I have worked in the building trade. In fact I built the house I live in now 11Yrs. ago and I can tell you first hand that it has not sunk.

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[mts]

MTS: You just made my point!!!! You said the grave markers were laying on top of the ground........That means they didn't sink, they weren't pulled down. If you reread this topic headind you will see the question is do things sink in the ground!!!

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There you go! Now THAT is a good argument. And I don't have an easy answer. But what I would suspect is that grave markers are made to be wider than they are tall in order to make their surface area to density ratio high enough to keep them from sinking. It's like snow shoes. They work because they displace the weight over a wider surface area. Coins don't fit this same profile. But it could explain why belt buckles and other flatter objects may not end up being burried as deeply. And this is something else that should be taken into consideration when trying to prove or disprove the theory that things don't sink and are only covered. So there are many factors now: age, density of the ground, density of the object, surface area of the object, ground foilage, and lots more.

So I don't have all of the answers. Touche'!

 

[Frankn]

Mts:Touche' buddy!

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[bazinga]

mts, you aren't going to win. He has his mind made up. So just let him think what he wants to think. We can't win.

 

[mts]

Well it's not that we disagree entirely. He's made some good points. I think we are both right and wrong to a certain extent. But one thing's for sure it has been a lively debate!

 

[bazinga]

Yes, both sides have valid points. The problem with his argument is that he states over and over that coins do not sink at all. He refuses to be open to the possibility it seems like.

 

[wharghoul]

Frankn,

I've only been detecting for a few years, but I do read. There are a lot of people (smarter than you or I) that have some pretty good thoughts on the subject:

http://www.dankowskidetectors.com/loveisdeep.htm

 

[mts]

Frankn,

I've only been detecting for a few years, but I do read. There are a lot of people (smarter than you or I) that have some pretty good thoughts on the subject:

http://www.dankowskidetectors.com/loveisdeep.htm

That's a very interesting article. Thanks for posting it!

 

[Shambler]

NasaTom is the man!

 

[scrubber]

Einsteins theory of relativity states that the universe is like a web. The planets being piaced into it stretch the web around the planets causing pressure against the planets ie. GRAVITY! so gravity is actually a pressure in rather a pull into the planet.

Wrong!! The "web" you're talking about is the distortion of spacetime caused by gravity which is the means by which objects with mass attract one another. Spacetime doesn't "push" anything. Gravity is not a pressure. It is an attracting force; one of the four fundamental forces of nature. Just thought you could use a little education in that basic area of science.

 

[steve from ohio]

The short answer is NO. There are exceptions like quicksand, but I doubt you are T.H. in quicksand! If a coin is dropped on the ground, a certain amount of dirt is blown on it by the wind. A certain amount is shoved on it by passing people or animals but the main coverage is done by dying vegetation. The coin does not sink,it is covered. If gold, which is heavy, sunk in the ground there would be no placer gold. It would all be at the center of the earth by now. I have been on the beach and seen old coins sitting two inches above the beach on small "sand towers". The wind and tide had removed several inches of sand from the beach. When I dig here in Md. I can tell how long an object has been in the ground by the depth. It makes no difference how much it weighs. I found several objects on a past hunt that were between 3" and 4". I knew they had been in the ground since the mid 40"s in fact two pennies were dated early 40's. I found an ax head,very rusty, at 10+". I knew it had been in the ground for over 200 years. Areas with little vegetation get most coverage from wind and water. All right lay it on me, but back it up!!

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Do you wanna bet that it doesn't?

Try this...go find some mud. Put a coin on it. Go see it tomorrow. It will be further down in the mud where it can not be seen.

Coins do sink and how far depends on the soil or rocks that they are dropped on. Rocks sink. Coins sink. Stand in one place long enough and you will sink too.

And yes you are correct that vegetation and blowing dirt and sand do have an effect. The combination of gravity and nature takes those coins into the environment of the worms. Yes even worms help sink coins too!

I have found clad coins from the 1970's to early 2000's that were down four or five inches into clay. Clay is under most of the dirt here in Ohio. Clay takes forever for nature to create. Topsoil would take a lot longer for nature to make than 10 or 20 years. The only way for those coins to get where they were was for them to sink.

The density of the soil near the surface is not anywhere near the density of the topsoil down deeper and clay is even more dense. Coins on the surface can sink and do sink.

 

[Frankn]

Steve: I think someone stole your coin on the mud! What was being discussed here was plane old soil, not mud, not sand,not water. Now I can tell you that it does not take 10 or 20 years to compost top soil! It is more like a month. I live on a farm that I use to work. Gravity does not pull things into the ground! The pressure on the earth is only about 7.5# sq.". Not hardly enough to put things in the ground. As for your clad coins from 2000 4 or 5" in clay. There must have been a flood there.

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