Claimjumping or not?

Bologna

Tenderfoot
Feb 23, 2011
5
0
Hi everyone. I am new to the forum and I have a question that I can not find the answer to.

If someone is on the hunt for a legitimate buried/hidden even historical treasure ( sack of gold, coins or whatnot ) and this "find" is on a valid legal lode/placer claim, and he is carrying only a detector, is this considered claimjumping or illegal if no "natural" spoils whatsoever are sought or taken from the site?

I'm pretty sure the owner of the claim has legal rights to the minerals on the claim, ( and rightly so ) but are these rights extended exclusively for naturally occurring minerals on, or even originally from the property?

Bologna
 

Upvote 0

AzHal

Jr. Member
May 14, 2007
48
0
Detector(s) used
Whites GMT
Hello Bologna,
In what I know about claims if you are using a metal detector regardless of the intent then yes indeed you are claim jumping. It would be best to contact the individual that owns the claim and let them know of your intentions and try to get permission. But you must be careful in what information you divludge. Ask them if they would let you detect for artifacts and maybe some type of split. If they agree to it make sure you get it in writing and possibly in front of a notary or maybe a picture of them signing the document. Good luck!
 

Sandman

Gold Member
Aug 6, 2005
13,398
3,992
In Michigan now.
Detector(s) used
Excal 1000, Excal II, Sovereign GT, CZ-20, Tiger Shark, Tejon, GTI 1500, Surfmaster Pulse, CZ6a, DFX, AT PRO, Fisher 1235, Surf PI Pro, 1280-X, many more because I enjoy learning them. New Garrett Ca
Primary Interest:
All Treasure Hunting
AzHal said:
Hello Bologna,
In what I know about claims if you are using a metal detector regardless of the intent then yes indeed you are claim jumping. It would be best to contact the individual that owns the claim and let them know of your intentions and try to get permission. But you must be careful in what information you divludge. Ask them if they would let you detect for artifacts and maybe some type of split. If they agree to it make sure you get it in writing and possibly in front of a notary or maybe a picture of them signing the document. Good luck!
First, welcome to the forum :hello:
As to your question, while it might not be really claim jumping it sure is trespessing. You are on their claim with out permission. People have gotten shot for less.
 

Jason in Enid

Gold Member
Oct 10, 2009
9,593
9,229
Primary Interest:
All Treasure Hunting
Lets clear up a few terms here. There are patented claims, which are private property. Entering is tresspassing. Then there are public land (unpatented) claims.

Unpatented claims ONLY cover the mineral contents. You can have a load claim (hard rock mining), and someone else can place a placer claim over the top, and be completely legal.

Since claims ONLY cover mineral content, you can not stop anyone from entering your claim area. People can hunt, fish, swim, hike, or anything else as long they aren't taking minerals or molesting your equipment.

Lastly, using a metal detector on someones placer claim could very easily be defined as claim jumping. You can say you are doing anything you want, but it's still a metal and mineral recovery device being operated on a mining claim.
 

Tom_in_CA

Gold Member
Mar 23, 2007
13,837
10,360
Salinas, CA
🥇 Banner finds
2
Detector(s) used
Explorer II, Compass 77b, Tesoro shadow X2
Interesting legal question. And I would agree with Jason's observations so far. But I would disagree with the last part of it though: There are many examples of the "intention" (item(s) sought for), became the operative difference, in whether or not detectors could be used.

Example: If you are looking for the boy scout ring you just lost, etc... Another example: back when the "meteorite" option of our hobby started to surface - years ago, it through some fed. agents for a loop. When the meteorite md'rs explained that nothing they were looking for violated the fed's arpa stuff (which covers cultural heritage type junk), the fed's backed off, and let them continue. Meteorites come from space afterall, and not the ground, so it left the rangers scratching their heads, and they let the guys continue.
 

AzHal

Jr. Member
May 14, 2007
48
0
Detector(s) used
Whites GMT
Jason in Enid hit the nail squarely on top of the head :hello2: You did a much better job than I did on explaining it.
 

OP
OP
B

Bologna

Tenderfoot
Feb 23, 2011
5
0
Thanks everyone for your replies. Looks like more info digging to find out for sure. I've read the Mining Act of 1872 and a couple of other addendums but nothing mentioned specifically about a situation like this. A call to the BLM may prove useful but I would want something in writing. Laywer? well, maybe.

I know it wouldn't be trespassing if on Federal land. Like Jason said, anyone can enter and recreate the property in spite of the "unpatented" miners claim. I would never knowingly enter private property, especially with prospecting equipment on board.

Interesting twist about the lost ring, or meteorite. I would think the meteorite would classify as legitimately belonging to the claimant as it is still naturally occurring, although some minerals are exempt in a lode/placer claim, but gray area about the ring. I think something could be worked out with the ring with the owner of the claim. On the other hand, say your on a beach and find a ring and someone comes up claiming the ring as theirs. Who is the rightful owner? I would guess the prospector. Another call to the lawyer .. gees.
 

Lady Liberty

Jr. Member
Feb 7, 2011
66
1
Primary Interest:
All Treasure Hunting
I was just reading this post. Might be some helpful information in there. http://forum.treasurenet.com/index.php/topic,382276.0.html

Sounds to me like you are walking on a very slippery slope with this. My knowledge is very little on the subject so I may be off base but I do have a few thoughts or questions.

1) From your statements- "he is carrying only a detector" and "I know it wouldn't be trespassing if on Federal land."

It is my understanding that often times a permit is need for metal detecting on federal land, that is if metal detecting is allowed at all. So I would start out with finding out if one can detect at all on this federal land you speak of. Then the issue might be raised about other persons claims while metal detecting.

2) Jason said "People can hunt, fish, swim, hike, or anything else as long they aren't taking minerals or molesting your equipment.". It appears you took this to assume any sort of recreation, I didn't see anything specifically mentioned about metal detecting.

3) You are suggesting to possibly be found on someone else's claim with a detector and digging up the ground. If caught, would you expect anyone to believe your story? That you were not claim jumping? That you were only there looking for "a legitimate buried/hidden even historical treasure ( sack of gold, coins or whatnot )".

4) It sounds like you are or at least believe you are on to something good. Perhaps that is the reason that the other person(s) have claimed that property and might be prepared for someone to come along looking for a way around the laws, a loophole. Just a thought.
 

Tom_in_CA

Gold Member
Mar 23, 2007
13,837
10,360
Salinas, CA
🥇 Banner finds
2
Detector(s) used
Explorer II, Compass 77b, Tesoro shadow X2
Lady Liberty brings out a good point: Even though the question started out as "would I be violating mining claims laws, to detect for coins, where a mineral rights claim has been stake out?" Liberty takes the question a step further, essentially, and wonders: "Forget mining claims laws, can you even be detecting [for man-made objects, the topic would seem to imply] TO BEGIN WITH, on federal land"

To that I would, that's a slippery slope to look into, at any governmental level. Yup fed, state, county, and city levels, if you start asking "can I metal detect?", you subject yourself, a lot of times to no one really caring about detecting, till you asked. Because even when not explicitly dis-allowed, you will/can simply find someone to morph something to apply to you ("No, because I think you'll hurt the earthworms"). Or "no", because no's the easy answer. On federal land, for example, I bet you are allowed to find modern stuff (less than 50 or 100 yrs. old). That's what I was told by a passing fed. ranger once. But just not older "antiquity" stuff. But I bet if I was to ask long enough and hard enough, I would find some fed. to also say you can't find new stuff either. And the other fed agents, rangers, cops, who just wave and say "good luck". So for this reason, I say it's a slippery slope to think the answer is "just go ask".

If you are really skittish, just satisfy yourself that there are no specific prohibitions (that SPECIFICALLY use the words "metal detectors", and not just silly things like disturbing the vegetation, or indian cultural heritage, etc..). If there is no prohibitions, carry a printout of that with you, if someone asks questions, show them you checked.

Here's a little more on how the pyschology works:

http://www.davidrumsey.com/luna/ser...No_InitialSort,Pub_Date,Pub_List_No,Series_No
 

OP
OP
B

Bologna

Tenderfoot
Feb 23, 2011
5
0
Thanks for the links you guys.

L. Liberty, just a misunderstanding in my typing. ( nice avatar btw ), I did not mean that in this case detecting would be recreating, no way. I meant that simply recreating on Federal land with a claim on it wouldn't be trespassing, assuming this is open federal land.

You are suggesting to possibly be found on someone else's claim with a detector and digging up the ground. If caught, would you expect anyone to believe your story? That you were not claim jumping? That you were only there looking for "a legitimate buried/hidden even historical treasure ( sack of gold, coins or whatnot )".

Good point, and absolutely not. I wouldn't believe it either. Even if it were legal to do it I would expect a very angry claimer if caught in the act. But it could be legal, because it isn't exactly mining in the sense prescribed by the mining laws, although it is prospecting right? Sticky.

Tom_in_CA, you make good points too. Certain officials can hassle you but I would always make sure I'm legal with docs to back it up just in case.
 

maipenrai

Bronze Member
Nov 11, 2010
1,151
242
Thailand/Europe/California
Detector(s) used
Excalibur 2 1000
Primary Interest:
All Treasure Hunting
I think you would have a hard time explaining to the owner of a claim, that you were only looking for a lost class ring, or your car keys. A metal detector is for finding metal, and that is what the claim is all about.. Are you going to tell the owner that if you find a big nugget, you will give it to him? I think your fighting a lost cause, unless the claim owner wants to share his claim with you, which doesnt seem probable.
Why dont you just go in with a shovel, and say your digging for fishing worms!
 

OP
OP
B

Bologna

Tenderfoot
Feb 23, 2011
5
0
maipenrai, With all due respect to the claimant, I wouldn't really be too concerned about what they think or say, They have their claim and I'd respect and obey their rights and boundaries. What would concern me though is what is actually legal. Fabricating a story could possibly lead to a loss or other trouble.
 

maipenrai

Bronze Member
Nov 11, 2010
1,151
242
Thailand/Europe/California
Detector(s) used
Excalibur 2 1000
Primary Interest:
All Treasure Hunting
Sorry that you didn't get the sarcasm in my reply. Did you really think I would recommend digging on someones claim??
And as far as you dont care what the claim owner thinks, maybe you should rethink your attitude about that. There might be some people that get a bit uptight over someone snooping around their claim with a metal detector. I wouldnt even go on a claim and kick rocks around, but thats just my respect for other peoples rights.
 

OP
OP
B

Bologna

Tenderfoot
Feb 23, 2011
5
0
Sorry about that maipenrai. Sometimes subtleties are lost in translation with the electronic medium and new people you don't know. I'll loosen up I promise!
 

Lady Liberty

Jr. Member
Feb 7, 2011
66
1
Primary Interest:
All Treasure Hunting
Tom_in_CA- I agree with the idea that its easier for a bureaucrat to simply say "No", rather than actually knowing the laws. Often, its easier to ask forgiveness than permission. However, we don't want to paint the hobby in a negative light by making too many assumptions. The statutes regarding metal detecting on the land he is speaking of should be available on line somewhere so there should be no reason to call attention to one's self by marching into an office with questions.

If metal detecting is not specifically disallowed on the land, it may be presumed to be so by those without lawful claims under the assumption that one would be prospecting in that manner. I'm not sure without looking into it on a federal, state and local level. I'll leave that up to Bologna to do in this case. Lol.

Bologna- Misunderstandings are quite easy when typing, lol. Your scenario is quite sticky. It will be interesting to other's thoughts on this or if we can find specific statutes concerning your scenario.
 

Tom_in_CA

Gold Member
Mar 23, 2007
13,837
10,360
Salinas, CA
🥇 Banner finds
2
Detector(s) used
Explorer II, Compass 77b, Tesoro shadow X2
Lady Lib, yes, I meant just generally speaking for public lands, in general. Mining claims might in fact be an exception, as they specifically deal with metals and such. I had delved outside this specific question of mining claims, because .... well it looked like you'd wondered if detecting (of any sort) was even allowed, on any federal land (whether a mining claim, or not).

Using an analogy: Frisbees: If one sees no prohibitions on flying frisbees, he assumes he can fly frisbees in the park. That is an "assumption" he would correctly be making, with no fear of painting his hobby of frisbee throwing, in a negative light. Yes, the statutes are probably on-line somewhere, and .......if after finding it is silent on the issue of frisbees (key-word search on "frisbee" comes up with no hits), then he can fly frisbees. And yes, no need to ask "can I fly a frisbee?"

But on a frisbee throwing tournament zone, the rules might be different, as only select individuals are allowed to fly them there, perhaps :)
 

barber

Full Member
Jun 21, 2005
186
5
Yakima,WA
Detector(s) used
XTerra 70 Xterra 705
I metal detect on mining claims here in Eastern WA State, but the gold here is so small and fine that a detector won't pick it up, On a claim that has nuggets, no I definitely would not be caught with a detector. I've been mining and detecting for many years, and I wouldn't want anyone on my claim with a detector ,IF there were nuggets,
 

Snarkie

Jr. Member
Feb 14, 2011
74
3
North Carolina
Primary Interest:
All Treasure Hunting
:stop: Let me put it this way:

I wouldn't do it unless I was wearing my ballistic vest.

Hope this helps! :angel12:
 

mrs.oroblanco

Silver Member
Jan 2, 2008
4,356
427
Black Hills of South Dakota
Detector(s) used
Tesoro Lobo & Garrett Stinger
Primary Interest:
All Treasure Hunting
I'm going with what Jason said.

I have to add this - you CAN be trespassing on an unpatented claim. The claim owner has the right to limit access to: mining equipment that is stored, any buildings on the claim, and to stop folks from entering the active mining areas.

The 1872 mining law gives you one major thing - the right to enter public lands in search of valuable minerals, and to be able to claim those minerals.

I can tell you from personal experience - if you metal detect on a mining claim - you can be convicted. I tell you this from a claimholder's side of the equation.


Mineral trespass — Penalty.

(1) A person commits the crime of mineral trespass if the person intentionally and without the permission of the claim holder or person conducting the mining operation:

(a) Interferes with a lawful mining operation or stops, or causes to be stopped, a lawful mining operation;

(b) Enters a mining claim posted as required in chapter 78.08 RCW and disturbs, removes, or attempts to remove any mineral from the claim site;

(c) Tampers with or disturbs a flume, rocker box, bedrock sluice, sluice box, dredge, quartz mill, or other mining equipment at a posted mining claim; or

(d) Defaces a location stake, side post, corner post, landmark, monument, or posted written notice within a posted mining claim.

(2) Mineral trespass is a class C felony



If you were metal detecting on a claim, without permission, and the owner of the claim has to stop to find out what you are doing - the courts consider that "interferring".

Beth
 

kai_gold

Jr. Member
Jun 29, 2009
82
5
Detector(s) used
Currently Use: Gold Bug 2, Gold Bug Pro, F5, Compadre

Previously Used: Etrac, Explorer, G2, Lobo ST, Ace 250, Ace 350, MXT, Goldmaster 4/b, Gold Stinger, GTAx 550, Sovereign, Golden Umax,
Primary Interest:
All Treasure Hunting
mrs.oroblanco said:
(b) Enters a mining claim posted as required in chapter 78.08 RCW and disturbs, removes, or attempts to remove any mineral from the claim site;

Interesting. I am pretty sure that a ring or coin would not be classified as a mineral because it has been manufactured, but I think the word "disturbs" in the line above could get you. Technically, you could metal detect for the lost ring. However, unless it was lying on the surface you would be disturbing minerals to recover a buried ring the moment you stuck your shovel in the ground.

First and foremost, I would want to show respect to the claim owner and ask just to avoid conflict. I also wouldn't want to risk injury even if I was in the right.

If I had lost a valuable item, I would want a ranger or someone official right there with me to witness that I was not extracting minerals in the event that I couldn't get permission. But, this will never be a problem as I leave all valuables home when recreating.
 

Top Member Reactions

Users who are viewing this thread

Top