Does a historic landmark automatically make metal detecting a no-no?

Twisted One

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I have been doing some research looking for an interesting place to go metal detecting in my area, and almost every place I find, seems to have had a historic monument constructed on it with in the last 10 years or so.
Does this monument, pretty much shut out the metal detecting hobbyist? If so, it is rather disturbing, since there are places here that are just locations of camps and such during the founding of the area, and now made off limits.

Kind of ironic that the monuments look like large headstone since they killed my hopes, and most likely buried some pretty cool stuff there forever.
 

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jeff of pa

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no


Ownership of the land it's on decides
 

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Twisted One

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Thank you, the one I am looking at for an upcoming adventure is on BLM land, so therefore it should be open to detect on then!
 

jeff of pa

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Twisted One said:
Thank you, the one I am looking at for an upcoming adventure is on BLM land, so therefore it should be open to detect on then!

My understanding some BLM Land is off Limits.

Like State Parks Some are open & some closed
& Historical areas are Closed.

so ask.

Unless I'm wrong & All BLM Land is Open ? :dontknow:
I Don't think BLM Owns any land near me

In cases of Township Property, If the Township lets
you hunt along roads & in Parks, I'd say Historical
landmarks in said TWP Would be open.
 

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Twisted One

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I was under the impression all BLM area was open to the public. I guess I will have to find that paper they gave me awhile back when I bought a map there. It mentioned metal detecting, and I thought it said it was allowed on BLM property, I will double check that it did not state anything specific about historic locations, and such.
 

justanotherbarber

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In the state I'm from, (ND) it's a big NO-NO. There is a house in my home town that was declared a historical landmark. When the people that own the house let the city register it, they did'nt know the rules that went along with the "honor". They arent alloud to plant flowers, trees, or remove them. They can't even paint or re-modle the house or alter anything on the property without permission.

Needless to say, they are in a court battle with the city/state to get the "honor" lifted so they have their home owner rights again. They can't even kill weeds in the grass without the permission. The city even attempted to ban them from parking their car in the driveway. :tard:

So in a nutshell, maybe even the owner won't have the authority to give permission.
 

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Twisted One

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justanotherbarber said:
In the state I'm from, (ND) it's a big NO-NO. There is a house in my home town that was declared a historical landmark. When the people that own the house let the city register it, they did'nt know the rules that went along with the "honor". They arent alloud to plant flowers, trees, or remove them. They can't even paint or re-modle the house or alter anything on the property without permission.

Needless to say, they are in a court battle with the city/state to get the "honor" lifted so they have their home owner rights again. They can't even kill weeds in the grass without the permission. The city even attempted to ban them from parking their car in the driveway. :tard:

So in a nutshell, maybe even the owner won't have the authority to give permission.

Seen something along those lines with a local business. But I get the idea that the rules are based on what entity placed the marker. In the case of the local business I mentioned it was a city placed honorific, and pretty much held the same rules you mentioned, but not as extreme, as far as parking, and weeds.

In the case of most of the historic markers in my area that I wanted to detect, most are on National forest, and state park lands, which I know would be a big no-no, especially since in most cases, you can't even detect there if there was no monument.

In the case of two specific locations, I know one was a monument placed by the local historical society, with permission granted from BLM, this is one that will be confusing at best, and I may just wait and e-mail BLM later with the question and see what they say.

The other, I am not sure who placed the marker, but on the other side of the "Recreation area" I have been detecting a couple of times, and BLM gave me a paper that states, exact wording, "BLM Guidelines for recreational mining activities on public land." Then it says, "Metal Detecting is allowed on public land. No permits are required." No specifics, or details, other then the words "Mining activities" in the title of the paper.

So either I ask and take the risk of being told "No", Or I just do it, and if I get questioned, I just show them the paper with no specifics...
 

justanotherbarber

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Hi Twisted,

You are right on who enforces and who checks rules. In many cases it's State by State, county by county, and city by city. It seems that the city regulations are the mose rediculous of the bunch.
 

Tom_in_CA

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I have hunted BLM land a lot, and never had any problems :dontknow: And now you have a paper specfically saying it's ok to do?? What are you waiting for? Heck, I consider just the lack of any specific prohibitions to be good enough! (ie.: silent on the issue). And you've got one better than that, sheesk, just do it. Otherwise if you ask a bunch of questions, you're only going to get the: "no one cared till you asked" psychology to kick in. ::)

As far as property/homeowners who have a plaque on their place: If they say go ahead, then hit it. Why would you argue with a yes? If they have any strictures by whomever placed the plaque there, that's between them and the plaque-placer person, not you. I have hunted places with historic plaques placed on them, when the owner has said "go ahead". Is that to say that maybe they didn't ask enough questions of enough people (which is kind of like asking if you can pick your nose, in my opinion)? Perhaps. But so what? If they felt they had that authority, then that's good enough for me.
 

justanotherbarber

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I think this is a local thing and should be handled as such. Best thing to do is ask the historical society to be safe. They are looking for any reason to stop us, so lets not make it any easier for them.

If you have permission in writing then thats great. :evil5:
 

Roland58

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If you live in TX, you better stay away from State Parks and Hysterical Markers. Here you get a hefty fine and lose your locator and all the associated equipment, i.e. pinpointer, digger, tool belt and tools, etc.
 

Lakemonster

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Roland is right for Texas.

If it it is on public land...then its the same rules and penalties as a state park.

If it is privately owned, you can get permission and hunt tho.
 

ivan salis

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generally speaking once a spot gets "landmarked" as historically important * metal detecting in the area will cause "issues" -- if its not illegal as if yet , if you go there and detect - you can bet you will at the very least get hassled by folks that will think it is :illegal" for you to detect there and who will most likely "push the issue" by calling the cops --saying your hunting in a "historic zone" illegally * -- yes more and more land is being "marked" this way -- archies do this to shut off access to the land to detectorist and hobbyist -- sort of the way the BLM "roads" are being closed to "vehicle traffic"-- oh yes the land is "open to the public" but you can not drive on it -- feel like walking / hiking in say 10 or 20 miles and manually packing in all the gear needed to go hunting , metal detecting , fishing and camping ? --especially if your not a young healthy 20 - 30 something year old -- with older baby boomers ( often with phyical disabilies of one type or another ) being the bulk of the population , shutting off vehicle access means they can not go there.
 

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Twisted One

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Tom_in_CA said:
I have hunted BLM land a lot, and never had any problems :dontknow: And now you have a paper specfically saying it's ok to do?? What are you waiting for? Heck, I consider just the lack of any specific prohibitions to be good enough! (ie.: silent on the issue). And you've got one better than that, sheesk, just do it. Otherwise if you ask a bunch of questions, you're only going to get the: "no one cared till you asked" psychology to kick in. ::)

As far as property/homeowners who have a plaque on their place: If they say go ahead, then hit it. Why would you argue with a yes? If they have any strictures by whomever placed the plaque there, that's between them and the plaque-placer person, not you. I have hunted places with historic plaques placed on them, when the owner has said "go ahead". Is that to say that maybe they didn't ask enough questions of enough people (which is kind of like asking if you can pick your nose, in my opinion)? Perhaps. But so what? If they felt they had that authority, then that's good enough for me.

I have read you post this very exact thing on many occasions Tom, and I know you stand by this "Rule of thumb" which for the most part probably holds true. I have to wonder though, if someone new to the hobby listens to your advice and loses their equipment and/or gets a heavy fine because they detected in an area that was not specifically marked "no detecting" will you feel at all any responsibility for it?

We all know that when it comes to the law, just because it doesn't specifically say you can not do it, it does not mean the local law enforcement will read it in another way and write you a ticket or confiscate your equipment anyways. In the case that you fight it, and actually win the battle, the most likely consequence it going to be new signs put up making it clear that you can not detect there, as well as the time, and money you lost fighting it in the first place, and if you are really lucky, you might even get your equipment back, and again that will take awhile as you attempt to prove it's yours, prove you won your case, and cut through all the red tape and paper work to get it released, hopefully before it goes to an auction somewhere.

So while I personally agree with you in most cases, if it is not marked, then it should be fair game, it isn't always going to go good for you. So you still have to cover your butt in the long run.
 

Tom_in_CA

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justanotherbarber, you say: "Best thing to do is ask the historical society to be safe" Why can't you go, under the authority of the homeowner, if they've said "yes"? If they feel they have that authority, why would you argue with a yes? It would be between them and the plaque-placer people, not YOU and the plaque placer people.

For example: I stayed at a historic B&B once, which had a historic plaque there. The proprietor gave me permission to hit the front yard (I got some old coins btw). It never even occured to me that I should go higher above their heads looking for a "no". Why does everyone here seem to think they must go further and further up the chain looking for "no's"?

roland58, you say: "If you live in TX, you better stay away from State Parks and Hysterical Markers." Sure, maybe state parks there (because maybe they're offlimits anyhow). But that's just one type of land ownership. How about hysterical marker placed on private land in Texas?

Twisted one. Very valid Q's on your part. You say: "I have to wonder though, if someone new to the hobby listens to your advice and loses their equipment and/or gets a heavy fine because they detected in an area that was not specifically marked "no detecting" will you feel at all any responsibility for it?"

My answer to this is, that the question itself has implications that I find mis-leading. The question itself INFERS that: "a newbie to the hobby will lose his equipment, go to jail, get fined", blah blah blah. Since when is that a given implicit statement? It's not. YOU are the one who thinks people can go to jail, loose equipment, face fines, etc.... if they detect somewhere that there is no specific prohibitions about. So the question contains loaded implications, in the very way it is phrased.

But I mean ........ sure ... SO TOO does a motorist sometimes get "roughed up" by an over-zealous cop, simply because he didn't know he had a tail-light out, or the cop "interprets" that his lane change was not diagonal enough, etc.... Could it happen? SURE. Does it mean we all stay at home and don't drive? Of course not. We look at those situations as isolated incidents, and the cops as "rogue", and we don't let that affect our day to day driving.

Twisted: If I asked you to give me examples of all these md'rs supposedly going to jail, facing fines, etc... for hunting in places where there are no prohibitions, I bet you would not be able to give me a single instance, right? The only examples you might come up with, are bound to be guys night-sneaking historic monuments, or guys who couldn't take a warning, etc... So the way your question is phrased has implicit flaws of logic, IMHO.

"So you still have to cover your butt in the long run." Yes. Of course. Which is why I advocate that if a person is skittish, they can look up any potential rules for themselves. That is the "covering of their butt". If they found no such prohibitions, then presto, they've "covered their butt".
 

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Twisted One

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Being pretty new to this hobby, and not really knowing anyone in this area yet, that has been in the hobby for long, I really have no scenarios.
The only instance I know of was a local lady that took her metal detector to a local park that is the site of an old hydro powerhouse. There are no signs saying it is off limits, and no historic plaque that I know of. She got hassled and threatened by the local ranger, it turned out it was sitting on National park land.
A little research on the site would have told her it was a no-no, but she just happened to be out with her family, and decided to stop there for lunch, and happened to have her detector along.

But for an honest to goodness situation like we were discussing, I have nothing. I also don't want to be the first example and lose my $900 dollar detector. Or have to pay a fine.
 

Tom_in_CA

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Well then the lady on the national park land spot does not apply to this discussion, since there was apparently an actual rule. The subject of this post is where there are NO prohibitions (ie.: silent on the issue, or as in your case, specifically allowed for pete's sake! :))

So you see, the example of the lady on national park land, where there may in fact be a prohibition (which she was welcome to have looked up online before she left). Also I notice that she appears to have just been given a warning/booting. What? No jail? No confiscations? No fines? :icon_scratch:

"I also don't want to be the first example and lose my $900 dollar detector .." Then don't detect where there are specific prohibitions. You will not be in any legal hassle, if there is nothing that says "no detecting".

This conversation leaves out the entirely different topic of whether something could be MORPHED to apply to you (eg.: disturbing earthworms, leaving holes, carrying a weapon/lesche, etc....). But if those type things bother people, then I fear they have chosen the wrong hobby. Either that, or they'll need to stay on private land, or only hunt targets on top of the ground, or whatever.
 

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Twisted One

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Thanks Tom for going along with the discussion and know I am not arguing against you, I am just on the fence about some locations and this being a main one, I really want you to convince me that I should go :)

Well I think it boils down to, you are right in the effect that a lot of people are scared to detect in places that they really can detect, but their fear is based off of rumors they had heard of people getting jailed, fined, hassled. And as you have said before, most of it is based on rumor.

But it also boils down to, if you looked and looked, and failed to find the information saying you can not detect an area, but the law enforcement does have a code saying it is a no-no, then it is a no-no, and you will pay for it.

As my grandfather would say, Who was a dredger for years, "Ignorance of a rule, does not justify breaking it." and in my short experience sometimes those rules are very borderline, such as "Detecting is legal as long as you don't disturb the rocks, trees, animals, or grass." And sometimes can just be down right hard to find.

This place I am looking at is called Piety Hill in Shasta county. BLM owns the land, and I have the paper I mentioned that states metal detecting is legal on public land" The title of the paper is specific to mining on BLM land. So while the glass is half full type might see that as an opening for detecting a historic area on said public land, the glass is half empty type might be wondering if they mean you can only detect for gold on public lands....

The real problem is it boils down to how the law enforcement person interpreted it.

I am going to another location this weekend, but I might head over to the location I mentioned when I get a free day and see where and what the historic mark says, it might just talk about the exact location of the camp it was placed in, when in reality the camps spread for about 22 miles.
Here are some article...

Piety Hill Chinatown:

This community was home to approximately 600 Chinese beginning in the 1850s. Chinese laborers built the major portion of the 22-mile long Hardscrabble Mine ditch and flume that stretched from Petty Butte to the Middle Fork of Cottonwood Creek. In 1866 all the whites left Piety Hill and moved across Conger Gulch to the new town of Igo and the Chinese stayed at Piety Hill. Many Chinese living there had duck pens and opium smoking was carried on openly. Their houses, or huts, were wooden.

Piety Hill was the site of a large garden; the vegetables were sold in a Chinese store which sat beside the road. The Chinese population began declining in the late 1880s and 1890s. Sometime during the first decade of this century, the last Chinese left Piety Hill. Supposedly only one Chinese woman ever lived here. She was known as "China Mary", wore long jade ear pendants, and dressed in brightly colored silk pantaloons.

and

Piety Hill Piety Hill was one of Shasta County’s original 1849 gold-mining settlements. At one time it contained 1,500 residents, 600 of whom were Chinese. As with many of our early settlements, there are more than one version for its name. One version claims it was named for the religious and political discussions held there by its pious early residents. Another claims it was named in honor of resident Grandma McKinney;s former home in Piety Hill, Michigan.

When the nearby Hardscrabble Mine discovered that the town sat on an ancient river channel, it began making plans to hydraulically mine the townsite for the gold it most likely contained. In anticipation of their towns’ destruction, most of the white residents moved a quarter-mile west and established a new town they named Igo. The Chinese residents stayed at Piety Hill. Their decision to stay proved to be the right one because the mining never took place. The Anti-Debris Act soon outlawed hydraulic mining because of the destruction it caused. The mining stopped at the edge of town, saving it from annihilation. All that remains at Piety Hill today are some circular holes in the ground that were the cellars of the Chinese houses, water ditches, and the remains of two reservoirs.
 

Roland58

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Tom_in_CA asks: roland58, you say: "If you live in TX, you better stay away from State Parks and Hysterical Markers." Sure, maybe state parks there (because maybe they're offlimits anyhow). But that's just one type of land ownership. How about hysterical marker placed on private land in Texas?


Roland replies: I don't know. :dontknow:
 

Lakemonster

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Again.....

in TEXAS...

IF the marker is State issue and it is on private property, one can gain permission from the land owner and hunt.
 

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