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  1. #121

    Mar 2007
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    Quote Originally Posted by LM View Post
    Ask her to cite you the ordinance. When she does (St. Augustine City), ask her which beaches that applies to.

    Seriously, cops have a bad habit of fabricating imaginary laws. If you point out that they're incorrect and stand your ground, they'll arrest you for 'disturbing the peace' or 'resisting arrest without violence' or whatever other bullshit catch-all charge they have in their 'respect mah' authoritah' arsenal.

    The good news is, you'd win a nice settlement if they actually did arrest you for MD'ing in Anastasia State Park.

    Seriously, one of the more obnoxious problems we face in a bureaucratic nightmare country is that the people we trust to enforce the laws are almost never bright enough to really understand them. Lawyers who spend 8 years in school hardly do.
    LM, you're right, jax-pirate may have simply got some sherrif's personal whims or interpretation, whereas perhaps no actual specific rule exists. But the PROBLEM now is, if he were to do as you say (and ask: "where is that written?"), it's going to be a downhill slide! Because the problem is twofold:

    1) The sherrif can simply morph SOMETHING ELSE to apply to the question. You know, the dreaded "alterations" clauses, or verbage that disallows "collecting" (so that no one thinks they can back up their truck to the beach, to harvest truck loads of sand for personal use). In other words, the rule does not have to be "specfic" in the first place. Laws, afterall, are often written vaguely, so as to apply to a myriad of circumstances, as they arise in the field. And there are even nebulous laws that do things like forbid "annoyances", or whatever. I too used to think that a law or rule had to specifically say "no metal detecting". But a lawyer friend of mine assured me that cops (or sheriffs, or rangers, or gardeners, or any duly appointed govt. official given over-site to manage) have latitude to interpret as they see fit. And judges and superior managers will almost always side with the low -ranking beat cop or gardener. If it WEREN'T this way, then think of it: everyone, everywhere, would be endlessly debating cops in the field over semantics. Ie.: you could wear a single sock, and waltz around in the park nude. And when the cop tries to boot you for violating the anti-nudity ordinance, what's to stop you from debating him that wearing a single sock therefore, technically, means you're not nude? So you see, there's reason that public officials are given latitude in doing their job, and applying rules to a variety of situations that arise in day-to-day situations. It's simply impossible to make an endless list of things that are "allowed" or "not allowed", so there's a legitimate purpose in making laws meldable to apply to situations as they arise, or as complaints merit.

    2) Nonetheless, some people have done exactly what you've said, and when confronted with a "no", they do just as you say, and say "where is that written?" (as if to put the burden of proof on the person, to produce such an actual specific rule). This can back-fire, not only d/t reason # 1 above, but also because some entities have actually been know, to IMPLEMENT a rule (or across-the-board policy, or whatever), forevermore thereafter, to "address this pressing issue", to close the loophole of lack of aspecific rule. In other words, you can end up essentially getting a rule WRITTEN (or policy implemented, or whatever), to address your issue

    As a proof example of this, there was a link that circulated around awhile back, where an entire city (which had a historic downtown district, an old fort site, etc...) was contemplating making a "no detecting" rule, for their entire city. The link circulated on some forums for the typical "let's fight this" type reasons. What was fascinating to me, when reading this article link, was the GENESIS of the REASON for the city contemplating this, in the first place! : It very clearly said that the city had received several calls, where persons had asked if they could detect. One call, for example, the caller followed it up with something like " .... and if you're going to tell me 'no', be prepared to let me know where that is written" I know the caller probably didn't mean that as a threat. They probably innocently and sincerely just figured that if the city personell was going to tell them "no", that there should be an actual rule saying such a thing. But see how that back-fires? See how that can merely become the fire under their b*tts to implement a specific rule!!??
    Last edited by Tom_in_CA; Jul 25, 2012 at 08:10 PM.
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  2. #122
    Charter Member
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    Nov 2006
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    Quote Originally Posted by Diver_Down View Post
    but what has had a larger impact in my opinion was a recent newspaper article featuring a local resident. This person went about flouting his finds including his claim that he's found the famous Matanzas Massacre site. He had gone so far as having his photo taken with the Matanzas National Monument (beach side) in the background. Of course this charged the current climate, while the recent t.v. shows just added fuel to the fire. An FYI: The Massacre site is NOT where the current National Monument is.
    .......... I am one of the few on these treasure fourm's............... That never tell or show any one what i have found........... What i find is my business and no one elses................There is some on tnet that never post what they find in picture's or word's....... You know what they say loose lips sink ships............ And that is a true saying.........
    ".. Let no one know what , when , or where ..'

  3. #123
    LM
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tom_in_CA View Post
    It's simply impossible to make an endless list of things that are "allowed" or "not allowed", so there's a legitimate purpose in making laws meldable to apply to situations as they arise, or as complaints merit.
    Which does not address the issue of a cop pulling up next to your house and telling you its illegal to stand in your driveway.
    There are police officers in federal prison who are there because they 'melded' the law a bit too much.

    Going back to the Greeks, the basic concept of 'laws' couldn't be any more clear. That which isn't specifically illegal is legal. As far as complex interpretations and gray areas, well, that's precisely why courts exist but as far as a clear-cut, very specific activity being illegal, for that to be true there must be a law saying so. Cops don't make up laws on the spot.

    The rest of your post was a needlessly elaborate thesis, none of which I'm inclined to expend any effort replying to.
    Last edited by LM; Jul 26, 2012 at 02:36 AM.
    "There comes a time in every rightly-constructed boy's life when he has a raging desire to go somewhere and dig for hidden treasure..." - Twain

  4. #124

    Mar 2007
    Salinas, CA
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    LM, don't get me wrong! I am the FIRST to go hunt ANYWHERE that there's not a specific prohibition. All I was trying to point out was, that for any of us to think that the lack of something specific, will ensure that there will never be a booting, does not logically follow. You can still be booted because they can simply say you'll harm the earthworms or whatever. And yes, of course, I'm sure there's been cases of authorities abusing that power of in-the-field interpretation (telling someone they can't stand on their own driveway, etc....). Sure, there are grey areas that end up in court, and sure, a cop (or gardener or ranger or whatever) can be reprimanded for abusing his authority. I'll grant you that.

    In the absence of any SPECIFIC prohibitions saying "No metal detectors", I will simply help myself. If someone in authority decides it runs afoul of something they can morph, they're welcome to tell me so. But to be honest with you, I make it my mission to simply avoid such busy-bodies, to begin with. You know, why kick a hornet's nest? Why hunt a park at high noon, waltzing over archie's beach-blankets, when the landscape crews are mowing the lawn on that particular day? And for any of us to "ask", as if to think it will 100% alleviate the prospect that someone might not "morph" something to apply to you/us, is simply a recipe to get a "no", when truth be told, most places you're simply ignored!
    Last edited by Tom_in_CA; Jul 26, 2012 at 01:20 PM.
    diggummup and kgunn like this.

  5. #125

    Jul 2012
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    I just got my first metal detector and planned on going tomorrow. I am worried now seeing all these post stating you can't go or you can.

    can anyone give me an answer please?

  6. #126

    Mar 2007
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    Hey jcarter30, your reaction is very "tell-tale" about the evolution of such worries, on the part of people entering into the hobby! Just as in your case, they read "scary stories" on threads such as this (because perhaps they did a key-word search), and presto, they therefore wonder "gee I wonder if I'm allowed to hunt where I'm at?? Afterall, I wouldn't want any 'legal hassles' arrests, confiscations, etc...". So what do the logically do? They ask on a forum (which simply starts more similarly themed threads ... to further "worry" yet even more people), or go ask a bureaucrat "just to be sure", which simply starts more bureaucrats passing out "no's" to address your "pressing question". Or even implementing rules to address the issue (afterall, you asked). See the vicious circle?

    I was there, firsthand, when all this balogna first started, so I know for a fact the psychology works like this (as your own Q/post attests): Way back when (early 1980s) before the internet, before magazine picked up on, or had "scary stories", it was just *assumed* that public parks, beaches, schools, etc... were "fair game". I mean, afterall, they're PUBLIC aren't they? Doh! I mean, no one back then when would have had any reason to suspect any different, and you could detect unbothered all the time (unless you were being a nuisance in some other way, or snooping around an obvious historic monument).

    But then in the early 1980s, some "solidarity" type stories started to circulate in the magazines. And the FMDAC was enacted, who subsequently sent out their periodicals each month, each filled with "scary stories" (from far away places we'd never heard of). As these things were read aloud in the club meetings, you could look around the room, and see eyes open wide (much like your impact of reading stories on the net), thinking to themselves "gee, I wonder if it's legal in my [city, county, state, fed ... fill in the blank]. So what did they do? They went around and did exactly what you're doing! They "asked". Nevermind that perhaps detecting had just always gone up, up till then, and no one had ever cared. Because afterall, you "can't be too safe", right? And lo & behold, some of them got "no's". So guess what happens then? They circulate such stories, which only feeds the chain of more people's wide-eyes, thus leading to more asking, thus leading to more bureuacrats searching their minutia for reasons to say "no" to (harming earthworms, cultural heritage, etc...).

    And then one day, the old-timers are left scratching their heads saying, SINCE WHEN? See how we can be our own worst enemy?

    Not saying you won't find a "no" where you're inquiring about. Heck, it may even already be on the books. But just saying, see how all this starts?

  7. #127
    LM
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    Quote Originally Posted by jcarter30 View Post
    I just got my first metal detector and planned on going tomorrow. I am worried now seeing all these post stating you can't go or you can.

    can anyone give me an answer please?
    Just don't go on city property.
    If you were planning on wandering around St. Aug parks or what not, no go.
    If you want to go detect the beach at Anastasia State Park, you're fine. Stay between the water and the dunes.
    "There comes a time in every rightly-constructed boy's life when he has a raging desire to go somewhere and dig for hidden treasure..." - Twain

  8. #128
    us
    Jan 2012
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    'The needs of the many out way the needs of the few' so to speak, however city government looks at it from a different angle 'squeeky wheel gets the oil'. i seriously doubt that it was one single incident that caused it' American Diggers apparently was the straw that broke the camels back (according to some) but im sure Ric Savage wasnt the mastermind to think to look in St. Augustine. Furthermore if u feel your rights are being violated there is plenty of attorneys out there more than willing to take your money to make it right... This Carl Halbirt merely seen an opportunity to get a minute of fame by jumping on the bandwagon of these bleeding hearts an utilizing some archaeologist to back him. However, if the landowner says u can then Go For It and there aint a dang thing they can do about it. The best part is on private property u dont need a permit.
    Last edited by kgunn; Jul 29, 2012 at 12:03 PM.

  9. #129
    us
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    Quote Originally Posted by Diver_Down View Post
    By the way, for those that are interested in hunting St. Augustine Beach, You might want to start from the Pier and work south (in the near future). If you are going to hunt later this summer, then start at A Street and work south. They are currently dredging the inlet (not the historical inlet with shipwreck goodies) and "re-nourishing" the beach. They have already begun and the section of ASP from the main beach access to the Pope road has a craptastic amount of sand being pumped onto the beach. I watched the re-nourishment on Old A1A last year (thankfully it has been nearly nullified by Mother Nature), and this current re-nourishment is a spectacular amount of sand. Pope Road is just north of the Pier so you might want to start from the Pier and work south before all the goods are covered over for the next decade.
    This is some good info for a desert rat tourist, Thanks!!
    Bunk
    Its all about the exploring!

  10. #130
    us
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    Can I MD St. Augustine beach south of 16th and the pier?

    Quote Originally Posted by LM View Post
    Just don't go on city property.
    If you were planning on wandering around St. Aug parks or what not, no go.
    If you want to go detect the beach at Anastasia State Park, you're fine. Stay between the water and the dunes.
    I will be taking my family down to St. Augistine beach for a few days vacation before going over to Disneyworld in late May. Has there been any major changes in rules/laws down there? I had no idea there was such a heated debate over just looking for lost rings/coins on the beach. I really want to test out my new whites XTPro down there. Been having a little luck finding coins at local parks, just wanted to enjoy a long early morning walking the beach, maybe getting lucky!

    Any info or advice would be great.

    JMB

  11. #131

    Mar 2007
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    "Someone needs to call and see if the ordnance applies to the beach...."

    Ray, you actually support the notion that someone should go call and seek clarification? If the ordinance isn't already applicable to innocuous sandy beaches, then ...... going, asking and seeking clarification seems to be the FASTEST way to get someone to tell you that ..... yes indeed the ordinance does indeed apply to sandy beaches too

  12. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by diggummup View Post
    Does the city even have a beach? I think the only beach within city limits (excluding the intracoastal) is Anastasia State Park which extends ti the inlet and north of that (Villano beach) is not city property.

    st. augustine - Google Maps
    Quote Originally Posted by Treasure_Hunter View Post
    Here is another map of St. Augistine City Limits, diggummup is correct, only beach is infact Anastasia State Park..
    Quote Originally Posted by jmb2email View Post
    I will be taking my family down to St. Augistine beach for a few days vacation before going over to Disneyworld in late May. Has there been any major changes in rules/laws down there? I had no idea there was such a heated debate over just looking for lost rings/coins on the beach. I really want to test out my new whites XTPro down there. Been having a little luck finding coins at local parks, just wanted to enjoy a long early morning walking the beach, maybe getting lucky!

    Any info or advice would be great.

    JMB
    See above quotes.

  13. #133
    us
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    You are right! keep a low profile....do not ask..rather check the net for the place you wish to hunt and look up the rles/ordinances/laws pertaining to that place. If NOT found then i would go and detect. Bring along a copy of the law/rule/ordinance with you in case you are questioned.




    Quote Originally Posted by Tom_in_CA View Post
    Al, a thought just occurred to me as I read this link of yours: The gut-instinct reaction of links and news like this, is "we need to fight encroaching laws" right? I mean ever since these shows, and the resulting archaeological back-lash against them, there has been no shortage of reactionary threads by md'r hobbyists, figuring we need "permits" to allow us to continue our hobby, to head-off possible reactionary laws/rules from these shows, etc... And as evidence, they post links like this, with reactions from city officials, archies, etc.... to bolster their proof that we need to "do something".

    But this thought occurred to me as I read the link: The ONLY reason we're reading about such things, is because of the publicity this brings, right? In other words, had these 2 shows never come on, then ...... presto, there would not have been this back-lash from archies, and the archie's accompanying encouragements to cities and counties. In other words publicity, visibility, etc... has caused this current rash of ill-wills, right? We would all have been better off if shows like this didn't make us a big red bulls-eye begging for attention and scrutiny, right?

    So think about it: this only bolsters what I'm saying, that we md'rs need to do the OPPOSITE of our kneejerk reaction. The knee-jerk reaction being to go out, show up at city and county halls everywhere, asking permission, seeking clarifications, asking for permits to "allow" us, etc... Because, gee, wasn't/isn't this visibility bullseye issue the problem that's bringing this about, TO BEGIN WITH? Like I bet that the average St. Augustine city personnel would never have given the matter a second glance, had he not seen an md'r on the beach, prior to this current flap. But given enough "big red bullseyes", then sure, the "pressing issue must be addressed". Thus my constant preaching for us all to STOP making ourselves an even bigger bullseye, by going and seeking sanctions. It will merely become a self-fulling vicious circle.

    So the very fact of the back-lash the show has resulted in, is proof of my very points.
    Nothing better than being outdoors!

  14. #134
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  15. #135
    us
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tom_in_CA View Post
    "Someone needs to call and see if the ordnance applies to the beach...."

    Ray, you actually support the notion that someone should go call and seek clarification? If the ordinance isn't already applicable to innocuous sandy beaches, then ...... going, asking and seeking clarification seems to be the FASTEST way to get someone to tell you that ..... yes indeed the ordinance does indeed apply to sandy beaches too
    Exactly Tom, I did them a favor last weekend with the trash I removed! The Shark loves deep iron. Not included were the multitudes of aluminum can pieces I brought out to trash can.

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    Last edited by Fletch88; May 31, 2013 at 01:46 PM.

 

 
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