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  1. #31
    us
    May 2008
    Wisconsin
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    Quote Originally Posted by PYRATE View Post
    Laborers could usually care less about such things, especially the fine gents from the free country to the south of ours.
    They don't run the job - the job sup does.

    I am somewhat alarmed at the rationalizations here about permissions. If we are better than American Diggers, we have to act that way.

    Here's another way to look at it: What does the job sup have to gain by letting you on the site? Nothing. What does he have to lose? Everything, including his job. You could get hurt, then sue the companies. Worse, you could find some artifacts/burials that could shut down the job for months - then everyone loses their job. Walmart loses a ton of money. They won't be amused. If you have permission, the ax will fall on the guy who let you on. If you don't, you will likely be prosecuted and/or sued. You wouldn't do it if you were in his position.

    I've worked with dozens of job sups on all kinds of jobs and been one myself.

    The job sup has a tough job; he can't do it fast enough to satisfy anyone, and a million things go wrong all the time and he has to deal with it. It's a high pressure headache. You just don't belong in a construction environment; it's not like it used to be, and never will. Think of it like being a cop in Miami; it takes special skills to survive.

    There may be times when you can get into their world and hunt smaller jobs, but the best way is to be aware of that world and approach them from that direction. I am completely at home in that world, and know what to say in order to connect with a construction sup, but I'd put my chances at about 20% in getting on a job like that.

    Please have respect for the multi-million dollar business activity going on there, and the man whose responsibility it is to complete that job on time and on budget.
    "A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith does not prove anything." Friedrich Nietzsche

    "You ask where I live. I cannot tell you. I am a Voyageur, a Chicot, sir. I live everywhere. My grandfather was a voyageur; he died while on a voyage. My father was a voyageur; he died while on a voyage. I will also die while en route, and another Chicot will take my place. Such is our course of life."

  2. #32

    Mar 2007
    Salinas, CA
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    reply

    Quote Originally Posted by Bum Luck View Post
    They don't run the job - the job sup does......
    Bum luck, while it's true that there are higher ups, you can perpetually go up the ladder for, yet any worker on the job (even if 2nd, 3rd, or 4th tier down), can still say "yes", as they too have been subrogated some form of authority (however so limited), by virtue of them being a worker there. And who cares if someone over them can "over-ride" that permission? That's the worker's problem, not yours. Your b*tt is covered, so long as you can say "I asked that fellow over there". Then in the worst case, that say-so can be over-ridden.

    And of course we should all have the "presence of mind" to go after the work is over for the day, so as not to be a sore thumb begging for attention, to begin with. So the fear you have of "artifacts shutting down the job", or a lower-level employee's b*tt getting chewed, etc... is not going to happen. I mean, even with the "yes", I STILL don't go waltzing around as if that therefore means I own the place. I still avoid lookie-lous and busy-bodies, as much as possible. The "yes" is only for if worse came to worse, and I ever was actually questioned.

    The reason why to not go as high up the ladder as you can (to company presidents, coorporate lawyer pencil pushers, etc...), is because the higher you go, you merely increase the odds of a "no". But I can tell you of LOTS of times where a carpenter, or electrician, or maintenance worker there after shift to lube the tractors has said "gee, shucks, I don't see why not". And never had any problems. Or another example: In my area is agriculture (row vegetable crops), for millions of acres up and down where I live. The lands are owned (or leased/rented anyhow) by mega coorporations, whose offices are perhaps in other states, or whatever. Occasionally I've researched out spots in what is now row crops. And it's always a slam dunk "yes" to simply ask the fieldworkers (usually first generation immigrants, but I know enough spanish to get the question by). And they always say "yes" (as they are intrigued by the concept, and then want to, of course, tell you about treasure back in their home country, haha).
    PYRATE likes this.
    Metal detecting is my one worldy vice!

  3. #33
    us
    Ray

    Jul 2012
    New Orleans burb
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    Quote Originally Posted by Catobra View Post
    As much as I love an intelligent and spirited debate and would love to shoot holes in Tom's most recent reply, it seems that this is a no win situation-there are simply those of us who believe that asking permission is a must-have and black-and-white and others who believe that there are quite a few shades of gray.
    I'm sort of in a situation now here where, just announced yesterday,the city plans to repair and reopen a 100yr old market place on the New Orleans riverfront. Drove by there a few hours ago. Its already fenced off, with a trailor set up. Trailer guy(security) would be my first contact about 5:45 pm, the day after I seen concrete slabs broken and hauled off or when they scrape top soil layers .Not likely cause the street and sidewalk there was replaced it seems after Katrina. I'll be back. They could be scraping or taking foundation inside. I can be chummy with security( the trailor guy). Not likely, but a security ok ,is a good ok !! Its not dark till about 8pm here now. Just had a conversation with someone that had heard me say that "sometimes its easier to ask forgivness than permission". It sometimes is very understandable. I later learned he had missed the "sometimes " part, which is very important, and was indirectly bashing my character. He understands me better now. Told him from now it'll be "When I'm wrong, I'm humble" not "When its gray, Look for Ray". Haven't had any issues yet im my long 9.6 months. LOL
    HH, RAY

  4. #34
    us
    Jan 2012
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    The construction crew would be more than likely to find any burial sites if there would be something like that, and what really are the chances of finding something like that. if you fo cover it up and let them find it.

    But like I said before I have my veiws of where and when to get permission on a site, I'm sorry if everyone thinks I'm doing it the wrong way.

  5. #35
    us
    May 2008
    Wisconsin
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tom_in_CA View Post
    Bum luck, while it's true that there are higher ups, you can perpetually go up the ladder for, yet any worker on the job (even if 2nd, 3rd, or 4th tier down), can still say "yes", as they too have been subrogated some form of authority (however so limited), by virtue of them being a worker there. And who cares if someone over them can "over-ride" that permission? That's the worker's problem, not yours. Your b*tt is covered, so long as you can say "I asked that fellow over there". Then in the worst case, that say-so can be over-ridden.

    And of course we should all have the "presence of mind" to go after the work is over for the day, so as not to be a sore thumb begging for attention, to begin with. So the fear you have of "artifacts shutting down the job", or a lower-level employee's b*tt getting chewed, etc... is not going to happen. I mean, even with the "yes", I STILL don't go waltzing around as if that therefore means I own the place. I still avoid lookie-lous and busy-bodies, as much as possible. The "yes" is only for if worse came to worse, and I ever was actually questioned.

    The reason why to not go as high up the ladder as you can (to company presidents, coorporate lawyer pencil pushers, etc...), is because the higher you go, you merely increase the odds of a "no". But I can tell you of LOTS of times where a carpenter, or electrician, or maintenance worker there after shift to lube the tractors has said "gee, shucks, I don't see why not". And never had any problems. Or another example: In my area is agriculture (row vegetable crops), for millions of acres up and down where I live. The lands are owned (or leased/rented anyhow) by mega coorporations, whose offices are perhaps in other states, or whatever. Occasionally I've researched out spots in what is now row crops. And it's always a slam dunk "yes" to simply ask the fieldworkers (usually first generation immigrants, but I know enough spanish to get the question by). And they always say "yes" (as they are intrigued by the concept, and then want to, of course, tell you about treasure back in their home country, haha).
    I'm only posting on a topic I happen to know a lot about.
    "A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith does not prove anything." Friedrich Nietzsche

    "You ask where I live. I cannot tell you. I am a Voyageur, a Chicot, sir. I live everywhere. My grandfather was a voyageur; he died while on a voyage. My father was a voyageur; he died while on a voyage. I will also die while en route, and another Chicot will take my place. Such is our course of life."

  6. #36
    Charter Member
    us
    Mar 2011
    San Diego
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    I'm with the ones who want to get permission from anyone on the site....even the sub-contractor's flunky's assistant! My reasoning is that once you start detecting and show that you're responsible and not doing any damage, they have less of a reason to deny you access at a later date or from a higher up. Of course, bringing a 6pack at whistle time or doughnuts in the morning doesn't hurt your chances either!

  7. #37

    Jul 2012
    442
    109 times
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    Thought I was through with posting my opinion on entering construction sites open or closed. Just had to add this, believe it or not. A couple of hours ago I made a grocery run to town passing the site of a new County Elementary School site being cleared. A four foot guv wire fence with silt barriers added surrounding this several acre site, one wide opening in and out, a dozen or so pieces of yellow equipment pushing the top off the site, trucks hauling it to the back, A Job Super with his White Hat outside watching the progress. You know what I'm going to say next? Yep, two guys with metal detectors working the site. Baseball caps instead of Hard Hats so they were not part of the crew. Each had a car parked near the area they were working. Well away from the heavy equipment. Will not buy they were county employees or Archie's. Those kind of people wear Hard Hats and vests in 120 degree weather. I'm tempted to grab my detector and run out there and start on the dirt the trucks are dumping out back. But, then again our heat index is 105 and I'd be the one who attracted the attention of somebody who cared what was happening.

  8. #38

    Mar 2007
    Salinas, CA
    Explorer II, Compass 77b, Tesoro shadow X2
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    Lost, well if those two guys were hunting WHILE the work was in progress, then they must've gotten a "yes". Like perhaps someone on the const. crew is their buddy, or some such strings to pull. I too have gotten "in's" (because I'm in construction related business) that has allowed me to hunt some sites WHILE demolition is going on.

    But if I don't have such an "in", then ...... well ....... if I was you, seeing as how that's a school demo site (and hence public land), I'd simply wait till the crews are done for the day, and go join those two fellers. Most md'rs welcome comraderie and fellow hunters anyhow. I enjoy hunting with others, and if I see another md'r approach me in a site, I actually enjoy the opporunties to make new friends, hunt with others (as a form of "pacing" and challenge, etc...). Then in that case, perhaps whatever "in" they have to be there hunting during the day, they can include you in subsequent day's hunts.

    On the other hand, if they're not the sort to like competition or others hunting nearby, then perhaps they might use whatever "in" they have, to tell you "you can't be here". Ya never know till you try
    Metal detecting is my one worldy vice!

  9. #39

    Jun 2012
    Cackalacky
    arrr, just need me nose
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    82 times
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bum Luck View Post
    They don't run the job - the job sup does.

    I am somewhat alarmed at the rationalizations here about permissions. If we are better than American Diggers, we have to act that way.

    Here's another way to look at it: What does the job sup have to gain by letting you on the site? Nothing. What does he have to lose? Everything, including his job. You could get hurt, then sue the companies. Worse, you could find some artifacts/burials that could shut down the job for months - then everyone loses their job. Walmart loses a ton of money. They won't be amused. If you have permission, the ax will fall on the guy who let you on. If you don't, you will likely be prosecuted and/or sued. You wouldn't do it if you were in his position.

    I've worked with dozens of job sups on all kinds of jobs and been one myself.

    The job sup has a tough job; he can't do it fast enough to satisfy anyone, and a million things go wrong all the time and he has to deal with it. It's a high pressure headache. You just don't belong in a construction environment; it's not like it used to be, and never will. Think of it like being a cop in Miami; it takes special skills to survive.

    There may be times when you can get into their world and hunt smaller jobs, but the best way is to be aware of that world and approach them from that direction. I am completely at home in that world, and know what to say in order to connect with a construction sup, but I'd put my chances at about 20% in getting on a job like that.

    Please have respect for the multi-million dollar business activity going on there, and the man whose responsibility it is to complete that job on time and on budget.


    I have a very firm grasp of RE/property law in a dozen plus states, have full respect for business activity/construction projects and sometimes even wear the white hat myself.

    The reason I advise against asking a PM, GC or supervisor of any type is because rules are rules and with every company I've ever worked, the rule has always been to never give anyone permission to do anything.

    The unwritten rules are different and we'll often look the other way if someone appears to be harmless and stays out of the way.

    My advice in an earlier post was solid and included staying away from busy sites and never getting in anyone's way. Respecting the property and project was implied and shouldn't require discussion as it is a matter of common sense.

    Regardless, it completely acceptable under the law to obtain permission from anyone working on a site because (unless specifically stated otherwise) when someone is given permission or hired to be on a property they are also given the authority to allow others onto the property.

  10. #40

    Jul 2012
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    109 times
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    Tom...I'm thinking, if those two guys are there this weekend, I might, say I might drop in and ask if it's safe to join them. Admit I'm not up to date on my county laws. But I am up to date on that farm they are working. It's been a corn field and Soy Bean field for the past 50-70 years. Maybe 1 or 200 years before that. Hundred's of yards from the nearest house or building. Can't imagine what they expect to find. The areas I've hunted like that produced a good walk in the sunshine and maybe a machine part.

    No, on second thought, they are there illegally no matter the in they might have so I might drop by just to ask if they are finding anything. That is if the gate isn't locked and there are no trespassing signs up. No signs there today. Oh, and like you, I welcome any detectors, or just folks who approach me while detecting. Picked up some pretty good leads that way.

  11. #41
    us
    May 2008
    Wisconsin
    GARRETT GTI 2500, Garrett Infinium
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    Quote Originally Posted by PYRATE View Post
    I have a very firm grasp of RE/property law in a dozen plus states, have full respect for business activity/construction projects and sometimes even wear the white hat myself.

    The reason I advise against asking a PM, GC or supervisor of any type is because rules are rules and with every company I've ever worked, the rule has always been to never give anyone permission to do anything.

    The unwritten rules are different and we'll often look the other way if someone appears to be harmless and stays out of the way.

    My advice in an earlier post was solid and included staying away from busy sites and never getting in anyone's way. Respecting the property and project was implied and shouldn't require discussion as it is a matter of common sense.

    Regardless, it completely acceptable under the law to obtain permission from anyone working on a site because (unless specifically stated otherwise) when someone is given permission or hired to be on a property they are also given the authority to allow others onto the property.
    Well, I've been around the block on construction sites myself for about 40 years for a living and profession.

    I don't think that 'anyone' has the authority to grant you access to the site, and it may be a legal problem for them, as well as you. I was actually in a legal situation like this years ago with a District Attorney, and it hinged on 'reasonable' belief on my part that I had valid permission from someone that had the authority to give it. I think that it's pretty obvious that a laborer doesn't have that, and good luck with that with the DA.

    We haven't talked much about the ethics of our hobby, but if I knew I was not being straight up with folks, I wouldn't do it.
    Last edited by Bum Luck; Jul 29, 2012 at 10:55 AM.
    "A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith does not prove anything." Friedrich Nietzsche

    "You ask where I live. I cannot tell you. I am a Voyageur, a Chicot, sir. I live everywhere. My grandfather was a voyageur; he died while on a voyage. My father was a voyageur; he died while on a voyage. I will also die while en route, and another Chicot will take my place. Such is our course of life."

  12. #42
    us
    Jun 2012
    South Jersey
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    Bum Luck is absolutely correct:

    "I don't think that 'anyone' has the authority to grant you access to the site, and it may be a legal problem for them, as well as you."

    In legal/court/contract situations, only certain people who work for X company have the authority to make decisions/sign documents etc. If permission is given or a document/contract signed by anyone other than those with authority, not only is the permission or document void, but the person who gave permission or signed can be held liable. Depending on the circumstances, liability could be as "simple" as that person losing their job or having a lawsuit drawn against them by X company and/or the other party. In any case I certainly would not want to be the one to start such a storm just because I wanted to hunt a site so badly.
    I would rather be the man who bought the Brooklyn Bridge than the man who sold it ~ Will Rogers

  13. #43
    Charter Member
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    IT COULD BE A VALUABLE PRIZE "YOU NEVER KNOW"

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    Well all i can say about this.........is........ that you were denied access........ So that means you can not go in there .. And there is nothing we can do about it and nothing you can do about it......... End of story...........
    "...Let no one know what,were or when..."

  14. #44
    Charter Member
    us
    Come out from under your bed today...... DO SOMETHING!

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    Ask for the GC.... General Contractor. He is "the voice" of the owner. I don't know if this was mentioned. I did not read all posts in entirety. TTC
    The tide doesn't come in for six hours. You wanna wait here for six hours? Apocalypse Now

 

 
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