Denied access to construction site-advice?

[Catobra]

Near me they have recently torn down many houses from the 50's/60's on many acres and the site is now just construction equipment (earth mover-type). It looks like they are just starting to bring in the ugly yellow construction dirt now and it is moving fast. There are rumors that it is to become a Walmart. A sign posted lists the developer and I just emailed him and asked for permission for myself and a few others to hunt there. If permission had been received, my intention was to let the first few serious responders from TN in the area know we had received permission and possibly hunt with them.

Even though I stated that we would sign hold harmless waivers and were "professionals" who would not harm anything on site, the response received, though very curteous, was negative due to insurance reasons.

I am sure people have been through this before. Is it just a dead end or is there anything more that I can do to get permission to hunt there?

Thank you for any help!

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[dholland02]

Just go in on a weekend there no working

[RotGrub]

It sounds like a dead end... The builder or developer owns the property and he is regulated by the insurance providers which call the shots. You have no idea of the authority and control these insurance providers have and after they take tens of thousands of dollars to provide this insurance they look for any reason to reduce their libility. AND the biggest fear that a builder has is that "something" will be discovered which could shut down the entire project for months if not years...

[lost]

I was a contractor and small time builder for 40 odd years. Don't take the owner's refusal personally, it's a liability issue and the odds are they won't give in no matter what paper work you submit. Once while bored I read the fine print in my company's insurance policy and it addressed directly not to let anyone not on the payroll or inspectors, or delivery personal on the work site no matter what. The fine print also mentioned, if I did, I might lose the whole policy if caught.

But then again, I see detectors working constructions site's in the late afternoon and on weekend around this area almost weekly. I'm not making a suggestion here. I have no use for trespassers and hope you find a solution. Maybe if you talked with the on site Super he might work with you.

[Catobra]

Thanks for the confirmations-I figured it was a lost cause and send the guy back an email thanking him for a courteous response and asking him to keep me in mind if there was a way it could be done....

Rot Grub-I thought about that-what if some "important" archaeological site was discovered-ugh anything to keep us from having fun! : )

dholland-somehow I don't think that is part of the metal detecting code of ethics.....

[TerryC]

Just go in on a weekend there no working

Rotgrub and Lost are RIGHT. No..... is no. Insurance reasons is a legitimate reason. Crossing into an active construction site is a FELONY in many states. Another very good reason to keep all out is the fact that metal prices are going sky high. Several sites around Rich Hill, AZ have had thieves come in at night and rip out copper pipes and tubes for the recycle value. That is ROUGH on the owner AND paid people who must support a family. They get nothing till the equipment is going again. If I caught someone "jumping" the fence, I would tell them to get out.... or I would call authorities MYSELF. It just ain't worth it guys.... for you..... for me..... for all of us. This is not a condemnation to anyone in particular, just the "bad guys". TTC

[Mackaydon]

Chalk it up to an opportunity lost; it may be your first, but it wont be your last.
You've been warned about No Tresspassing so why risk a police confrontation if you pursue?

[bingbong]

building sites are perceived as dangerous without safety warnings and associated training for those on site .
some guys go on at night .
you could be seen to be attempting theft of materials ,and anything from the ground .

[Catobra]

Just in case my post was not clear-I asked for permission because I do not think that it is ethical to detect private property without permission or off limits public property. Not now or at any time did I have any intention of entering the site without obtaining permission. I was merely asking more experienced hunters if anyone had some sort of magic code words that they knew that would possibly get the developer to give me permission to hunt. (please see my signature)

On a lighter note, it is Jersey, maybe if I slipped them a few bills? JOKING!

[lookindown]

If there are no signs and no fence I hunt when no one is there. I never go on them at night. If you ask and get a "no" its over. Ive never been run off. Police drive by all the time and wave when they see what Im doing.

[dholland02]

Completely with lookindown I feel the same way

[PYRATE]

The only time to ask permission from "the boss" on a large project is AFTER being kicked off of the project site by someone who isn't the boss. Unless you get it from the GC's secretary, it is doubtful you will ever get permission from a GC, but if you've already been kicked off site, you have nothing to lose by asking. Waivers and other legal paperwork are completely useless in these situations and you'll only get permission from a GC if you have a common friend or if he likes you and recognizes you to be a like-minded individual. (95% of the time he won't)

Here is how to get permission to access a site:
Rule 1: Never ask a GC, supervisor, project manager etc. (these are usually the clean guys with white hats, nice trucks and expensive shirts)

If everyone on a site with no overhead work is wearing a hard hat, an inspector/client/osha/etc. is around and you should come back at a different time. (I shouldn't have to say it, but never ever venture onto a site with overhead work under any circumstance)

There will be subcontractors working for the GC and you want to ask a lower level employee of one of the subs. Generally speaking the best guys to ask are the ones with dirt on their shirts, and even better are the guys who don't speak much English.

Never interrupt, ask a formal question or make them raise an eyebrow, just say something like "is everything ok?" or "am I good over here?" when walking past. If you talk with anyone at length, form a bond and be incredibly nice. If told to leave, apologize and mention that you'd been told it was ok and begin to leave, then hesitate and ask who you'd need to speak with to get permission. Remember the old adage about honey being sweeter than vinegar and if you get booted off site, never be a jerk about it.

Other things: Never go when the site is busy (unless it is so busy that you will not be noticed) - Try to look like you belong on site. Wear work clothes and minimize the hobbyist appearance. If you look like you are homeless, a criminal or another undesirable character, please recognize that you look like an undesirable character and don't be upset when you are not desired.

If you are or were involved in law enforcement, the military, construction, unions or anything which may be respected by folks on site, it may be helpful to have a minimally sized badge or pin etc, but don't go overboard with it.

If you are confronted, it may be helpful to mention a family/friend connection to the site (ahem ahem) and never use "historic" terms or let on that you care anything remotely about history.

Lastly, consider what you would think if you were in charge of the site and some unknown person was wandering around. Make it a point to avoid equipment, materials or dangerous places. Don't get in the way. Don't be a nuisance. Keep far away from anything of value. If you look like you are casing the joint, you will be treated like a thief.

[Tom_in_CA]

Hey catobra, dholland02, pyrate, & lookindown give a perspective can be expanded a bit, if you know the evolution of these things. I've been in this hobby for over 35 yrs. now. And believe it or not, there was a time when old-town urban demolition sites were not fenced! You know, perhaps some orange cones or ribbon or something, but that was it. Then in the late 1970s, and into the 1980s, we started seeing fences around sites. NOT because anyone necesarily cared that you might find an old coin or something mind you, but merely because of the litigical age we live in, so that no one can sue the contractor or city if they slip on a banana peel.

When I first started this hobby in the mid 1970s, we would simply wait till after 5pm, and help ourselves. This remained true even when the fencing age popped up in the early 1980s (since we were simply so accustomed to no one caring, as long as we weren't a nuisance). Ie.: you simply un-do the bailing wire and walk right in. Oddly, even the rank and file workers who might actually have seen us, didn't care. Cops pass by, and just assume you're a worker (or simply actually don't even notice or give a moments thought).

But of course, this topic has 2 elements: "Private" property verses "Public property". I notice that in your desire to have permission also extends to "off-limits public property". This is where it gets sticky, because .... as much as I would love to have the red-carpets rolled out for us, it's simply not going to happen. You're simply going to have to forgo demolition site hunting (or knock yourself silly trying to get a foreman or const. co. to budge, which as you saw, is futile).

Let me give you this example: There was a demolition site at our city's oldest high school (built 1919) where a part of the renovation process called for ripping out all the grass in the inner court, where 80 yrs. of students had sat eating their lunch everyday. You can imagine was a lucrative grass scrape that would be Well a few persons in our town simply went in after 5pm, and helped themselves (probably figuring "it's a public school"). Sure that meant having to un-do the bailing wire to open the gate panel .... but ... oh well. The on the other hand, some other well-meaning folk went your route, and knocked themselves silly writing letters to the city, the const. co, etc.... They either go no reply at all, or if they got a reply, it was a "no". But the STRANGE part was, those couple of guys who simply WENT, had no problem at all. Yup, in full-view of Main St. traffic. And even after-school staff (from the buildings of the school that were un-affected) would come out each night to see what the guys were finding. The md'rs would show them handfuls of wheaties, silver, etc... So that merely fueled the subsequent nights where the janitors would all come out to oooh and aaahhh over the night's latest finds. So as you can see, this example was/is a clear case of "no one cares till you ask".

Of course that is an example of a public site, so I'm not saying to apply that to a private site too. But ....... just sayin' .....

[kuger]

Of course that is an example of a public site, so I'm not saying to apply that to a private site too. But ....... just sayin' .....

[Catobra]

Very interesting to see all of the opinions-I appreciate the feedback.

When I mentioned "off limits public property", I meant national/NJ state parks where it is def illegal to hunt/remove relics.

Although it may limit my fun/experience, I will still stick to asking permission in such situations (construction sites with signs, abandoned buildings/houses with "for sale" signs etc.)

[Catobra]

Sorry forgot to add:

Tom-those must have been the days! I would have considered the public school, but the fence would probably have stopped me-bawk! bawk! yup, quite a chicken sometimes...... : )

[PYRATE]

I do want to clarify that when I mentioned that waivers etc. were considered worthless, this only applies to the corporate folk.

Fancy pieces of paper are priceless when dealing with individuals or small businesses.

[rickjr]

Catobra, you may want to try and find an MD'ing club close by. My club has a liability policy that lets them make someone else an additional insured. I'm in the process now of getting permission to hunt some federal land that has no trespaasing signs on it. It used to be an old military base.

[Tom_in_CA]

Tom-those must have been the days! ....

Well I bet that EVEN THEN, if we'd gone and asked enough questions, of enough bureaucrats, with the right combination of buzzwords, then sure, you can ALWAYS find yourself a "no". I bet that even at the most innocuous modern sandbox, in any city, I can find a "no". All I need to do is throw out phrases like "treasure", "dig", "holes", "liability", "artifact that should belong to city museums", and so forth. And sure enough, you will always find yourself a "no". All you do is simply preclude yourself from places where, odds are, no one would ever have cared or noticed.

Oh, and back to the original Q, when a contractor (or cities or whatever) gives you the song and dance about "liability", it almost always does NO GOOD to produce a waiver, or show them your own insurance policy to cover yourself, etc.... Because you see, this is just their answer, and the reality is, they just "don't want to be bothered". Ie.: why should they bother with having to go through reviewing your proofs of insurance, etc... The easy answer is always "no", and they just say the "liability" thing so as not to be bothered by you.

[SeaninNH]

Don't let people scare you off... The coin in my avitar was found on a construction site that the GC gave me permission to hunt the piles in.

They were tearing up a park to build a new playground and dugouts. The dirt from the playground and ballfield was piled up behind the construction trailers.

I asked if I could detect the piles and he said have at it.

Granted it's not likely that you will get permission, but you never know... the chance is there.