Do you think we can change the laws? MEETING UPDATE>>>

nc-joe

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Dec 1, 2006
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I have attached the email I sent to my County Commision today. Do you think I will get a favorable response?


Dear Mr. Carruth:

I am a metal detecting hobbyist who lives in Cabarrus
County. I was researching areas in which I can pursue
my hobby, and since local parks are usually areas of
interest for metal detecting I decided to review the
Cabarrus Parks and Recreation Code of Ordinances and
was very disturbed to find Sec. 50-3 (3). Park
preservation. If I am reading this correctly, it
appears metal detecting is not allowed in County
Parks. Upon further review of the wording, it would
appear my child can not "play in the sand" since
digging in the sand is not permitted. It also appears
the Code of Ordinances was revised in 2005, which
would be during your chairmanship. If my
interpretation is correct, what steps would be
necessary to change either remove, or amend this
Ordinance? The section referenced reads:

"Sec. 50-3. Park preservation.
It shall be unlawful for any person to:
...

(3) Dig, pick or remove any soil, rock, sand,
stones, trees, shrubs, plants, wood or other
materials, or make any excavation by tool, equipment,
blasting or any other means whatsoever."

Of course, complete access to "public" parks is my
desired outcome, but even if there were limited areas,
times or parks available, would enhance the Parks
experience for many hobbyists with in our community.

As a metal detecting hobbyist, we have a core code of
ethics designed to maintain the beauty of our parks,
communities and country. An incorporation of these
codes of ethics/conducts into an amendment to the
listed code would most certainly be welcomed. The
code of ethics are:
I will respect private property and obtain proper
permission to search the property

I will fill all excavations. (back fill any holes and
put the sod cap back on top) (a limit to a size of
hole can be determined, ie: 6" round by 6" deep)

I will appreciate and protect our heritage of natural
resources, wildlife and private property.

I will use thoughtfulness, consideration, and courtesy
at all times.

I will build fires in designated or safe places only.
(this is already addressed in the current codes)

I will leave gates as found.

I will remove and properly dispose of any trash that I
find. (this will help clean up littered areas for
everyone benefit)

I will NOT litter.

I will NOT destroy property, buildings, or what is
left of ghost towns and/or deserted structures.

I will NOT tamper with signs, structural facilities or
equipment (this is already addressed in the current
code)

Please feel free to contact me for any more
information you need, or if there is anything I can do
to help change the current code, if my interpretation
is correct.

I look forward to your response.

Thank you for your time and service to our community.
 

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TreasureTales

Guest
Re: Do you think we can change the laws?

I commend you, nc-joe, for your effort to not only write to your county commissioner, but to also include the citation in question. WTG! Whether it changes anything or even gets his attention is doubtful in my opinion, but it's a good start. Is there a club in your area so that you can encourage others to write similar letters? Or is there a county fair in which you can put up an exhibit to show some of the neat things you've found right there in your own county so that others -- even people previously uninterested in metal detecting -- can marvel at the great stuff recovered and preserved FOR GENERATIONS TO COME? How about writing a letter to the local newspaper editor and citing the same section of the county law?

Truly, you done good!!!
 

diggummup

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Jul 15, 2004
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Re: Do you think we can change the laws?

All I can say is good luck.If you don't receive any kind of reply within a week or so,I would start emailing him everyday at least 5 times a day.At least then you'll know you got his attention.Just remember,you can't fight City Hall.I do applaud your efforts and wish you luck in your endeavor.It seems all the best places to detect are always off limits.
 

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nc-joe

nc-joe

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Dec 1, 2006
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Re: Do you think we can change the laws? (I already got a hopefule repsonse!)

I rec'd 2 responses already, on from the Parks and Rec Comissioner and from the County Commision Chairman! Both sound very hopeful!

Thanks for your interest in our parks. There is a lot of thought and resources that go into designing and maintaining our parks, and I'm always happy to hear about people who enjoy them. I also appreciate you taking the time to review the law. That demonstrates to me what a thoughtful citizen you are.

The spirit of Section 50.3 is "Park Preservation". The idea is that if someone goes to a park that they left it the way that they found it, which you seem to do in your hobby. I'll ask Parks and Recreation staff if there isn't some possibility of a "divot replacement" clause to cover an activity that requires some minor exploration under the ground surface followed by replacement of the turf. Such a clause would have to be worded to protect plants and fixtures in the park; but I think it's doable.

I'll see if we can't bring this up at an upcoming meeting

Justin Thibault
Chair, Cabarrus County Parks and Recreation Commission

And

Thanks for the note - This is definitely something for us to discuss
further - I copied the chair of our Park & Rec Board on the email.

Bob Carruth
 

dahut

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Nov 6, 2004
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Re: Do you think we can change the laws?

Go read Mahatma Ghandi about the power in the voice of a single man.

Then I'd amend your excellent letter thusly:

"Of course, complete access to "public" parks would enhance the Parks
experience for many hobbyists with in our community."
Shoot for the top on this one

As a metal detecting hobbyist, we have a core code of
ethics designed to maintain the beauty of our parks,
communities and country. An incorporation of these
codes of ethics/conducts into an amendment to the
listed code would most certainly be welcomed. The
code of ethics are:

I will respect private property and obtain proper
permission to search the property

"I will fill all excavations. (back fill any holes and
put the sod cap back on top) (a limit to a size of
hole can be determined, ie: 6" round by 6" deep)"
Avoid the word "excavation." It connotes the wrong idea. Say something more like "leave no sign of your presence" and dont offer size limitations at the outset.

"I will build fires in designated or safe places only."
(this is already addressed in the current codes)
Leave it out. If its already addressed dont re-address it and make them think you WANT to build fires.

"I will remove and properly dispose of any trash that I
find. (this will help clean up littered areas for
everyone benefit)"
REALLY emphasize your civic-mindedness on this one

"I will NOT destroy property, buildings, or what is
left of ghost towns and/or deserted structures."
Consider changing this to public edifices or buildings and add the word wantonly before destroy.

Please feel free to contact me for any more
information you need.

Leave it at that.

I look forward to your response.

Thank you for your time and service to our community.


Nicely done. However, are you harassed or otherwise bothered by the city NOW? There are laws on the books to cover about any scenario already and it is said that any good cop can always find something to stick you with.
DO you feel you need to stir waters that may better be left alone?
 

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nc-joe

nc-joe

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Dec 1, 2006
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Concord, NC
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Re: Do you think we can change the laws? (I already got a hopefule repsonse!)

I made the mistake of MDing in a state park without checking the law first. I was lucky it was cold that day and my findings at that point was only $1.87 in clad. So when the ranger approached, checked what I had, he gave me a written warning AND a copy of the state law referring to this. He must keep several copies in his truck. As for the locals, well, I decided to research BEFORE I started to MD the parks. The code enforcement, whether it be by the parks dept or the city, county or state police here is NC is very consistant. They don't mess around, and very seldom give warnings. I really do not feel like sitting in front of the District Attorney and explaining ignorance is a defense and trying to secure a prayer for judgement to get the charges reduced or waived. Our entire County Commission is made up of very conservative members, therefore, I felt it would be best to go through the proper channels and address the issue litterally ONCE and FOR ALL. I truly believe there will be a change to our code that will be kept with me at all times, once it is changed.

I wanted to share this, so if anyone else has the same issues in their area, they could learn from either my success of failure and find a workaround in their community.

Now if they get to this by 2010, this whole politics thing might work!
 

TheSleeper

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Nov 25, 2006
686
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Re: Do you think we can change the laws? (I already got a hopeful repsonse!)

Simple economics 101, all local, state and fed parks exist as a direct contrabution from "YOUR" tax dollars. If u want to get downright technical since part of "YOUR" tax dollars are spent to buy, maintain or staff said above parks, u are a direct owner of said parks. Just like ever other single tax payer in this country, so it is "YOUR" god given right to be able to enjoy "YOUR" park in any manner u see fit.

Want to get your point across to washington, band together and stop paying taxes til they give US back our country. Washington survives only as a direct contrabution from tax dollars, no tax dollars coming in= no washington, Money is the only way to get there attention.
 

dahut

Hero Member
Nov 6, 2004
809
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Re: Do you think we can change the laws? (I already got a hopeful repsonse!)

Sleeper hits on an essential issue: Those in appointed/elected offices feel its their job to control things for you, not neccessarily make them more useful to you.
It's part of the "I know whats best for you" mentality that public-arena folks have built in. It is, in fact, the root of the power such folks often seek.

But you did make a good point in that, IF there are restrictive codes, you are right to approach them ahead of time. State parks are a good example, in that they are usually just plain off limits. I agree with Sleeper, theyre my parks,too. But because some detectorists ARE slobs, pirates and thieves in search of their greedy little treasures, the rest of us suffer. Alas, changes at the state/federal level are rather big fish to fry.

I applaud your bravery in trying to change the situation in your little corner of life.

Peace,
David
 

spez401

Hero Member
Jul 13, 2006
521
9
Coventry, RI
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Re: Do you think we can change the laws? (I already got a hopeful repsonse!)

You can always lobby to change the laws. And if done properly it can be done relatively quickly. I agree in theory with sleeper and some of the others, but in theory only. You can say that since you pay taxes, the parks are yours, but it doesn't make it so.

There are laws on the books, good or bad that affect your conduct. If there is a law that specifically prohibits you from detecting the parks, then you are prohibited UNTIL the law is changed or repealed. The police officer/park ranger who gives you the ticket is doing his job by enforcing a VALID law. By disregarding the law itslef, ignoring the ticket, and/or refusing to pay your taxes, you are exposing yourself to a MUCH greater liability. Talk to your local government officials (and then senators and representative on the federal level) and see if you can get things changed. If not, you can always challenge the constitutionality of a law/ordinance.

The other thing we must remember is that the laws are there to protect the public at large. Just because we have a respect for land, history, artifacts and the like, you assume that others do.Very often, they don't. By writing in an exception to the law, it opens up allows abuse on the part of those less concientious than we are. But that begs the question :"who is going to make that determination?"

As an attorney, I see the pitfalls in changing the statutes/ordinances. They have to be worded in such a fashion as to not invite abuse and to allow access. Neither of which is mutually exclusive of the other. It is a balancing act that tends to leave people unhappy...On both sides of the argument. And the governments argument is "the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few." But, it doesn't mean that they cannot be changed.

As for violating the statutes... I would never advise a client to violate one; quite the contrary. If you violate the statute you run the risk of heavy fines, possible criminal action, confiscation of gear, and possible legal fees. You must work within the confines of the law, lobby to get them changed. Until they are changed, it isn't worth the risk to violate them.

Saying "I pay my taxes, therefore this is my park and I can do what I want" is akin to telling the cop who is writing you the ticket "You can't give me a ticket; I pay your salary". We all know how well that works. Everything CAN be legislated by statute regardless of its importance as a freedom: freedom of speech, freedom of press, religion, right to bear arms, etc. They all have been regulated, and rights have been limited. You can't yell fire in a crowded theater. You can't print whatever you want as a newspaper. You can't practice cannibalism/satanism/ and a host of other "religions". Why? Because those "rights" have been limited based on the needs of the public.

So... please obey the laws. Lobby to get them changed - absolutely. But abide by them until they are. Do this for a few reasons. First, by disregarding the law, you put the rest of us in a poor light and give our hobby a bad name, thereby reinforcing the apparent need for the laws in the first place. And second, it kills me when I have to charge someone $500 in legal fees to get rid of a criminal charge, beat a fine, and get someone's gear back. (I've done this with 2 detectorists - one on federal lands, and one on private property, both without permission, and several SCUBA divers who took fish/lobster without the proper license). And if not... just send me a pm if you get in trouble.

steve
 

TheSleeper

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Re: Do you think we can change the laws? (I already got a hopeful repsonse!)

spez, no disrespect meant but:

Those lands are ours, just like our roads waterways etc, every squire inch of this country has come at a dear price in terms of bloodshed lost by our fore fathers. 99 % of the laws in this country "we the people " had no control over being written, they were written, decided upon and implamented WITHOUT asking us what we wanted. They were written by politicians, lawyers, judges the list is long, and each has there own reasons why they wanted them in.

It is a fact that in this country it is run by greed, try stopping a politician and asking him a question and u get no where they are above us mear mortals, so how can u get there attention, easy u hit them where they will feel it the most>>>> there wallets.
One week of everyone not paying taxes would get washingtons attention real fast, it would send the message that "We`re mad as *ell and ain`t gonna take it anymore" .... Thats the only lang politicians understand, money and greed. They DO NOT understand well ur my (meaning state, local, what ever) Representative. They are there doing there own agendas for those that help them get elected and/or re-elected, i remember hearing a newscaster describing how one (sorry can`t remember his name) was glad congress was over with so now he could get back on the campaign wagon, but his term didn`t end til a year from that point.

We are under the burden of the yoke that our forefathers fought against with england, they say everything goes full circle, well guess what. We should have just stayed as englands subjects cause it ain`t no different now then what we fought against back then. Taxation without representation, freedoms granted by our fore fathers denied or stripped or laws worded in such manners NO ONE but a lawyer or politician can understand them.

The laws in this country are not there for us, they are there to be used "AGAINST" us.
 

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nc-joe

nc-joe

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Dec 1, 2006
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Re: Do you think we can change the laws? (I already got a hopeful repsonse!)

I will say this, at this point, I feel those in my county commission ARE my representatives. I can not say that about all levels of government in my area, but it appears they are willing to listen, and even showing the potential for some sort of change.

I can wait to MD the sites. I don't want to, but I will. This may take a little time, but they did state they will bring it up at their next meeting. If they do, I can not ask for any faster consideration on a issue such as this.

As for those who DO NOT adhere to the ethics of MDing, well, it's like every other aspect of life, there are those who do things right, and those that screw things up and create the need for those that do do things right to come in and fix them. As you can see, I suggest the incorporate the MDing ethics INTO the codes, therefore, anyone not following the code can be held accountable for their careless actions.

I think this is a step in the right direction. I agree and understand, what I wish to use the park for may greatly differ from what someone wants to use it for. My and actions should not interfear with there enjoyment and theirs should not interfere with mine. I do not want the large open field at one of the parks to look like a prarie dog village if there are no prarie dogs there! I do not want to step in a hold an break my ankle! But when I was nominated to run for a post on my home owners association, (I really did not want to run) I explained to the group, "I do not agree with all of the rules set forth by our homeowners association, but there is a way to get things changed. It's not by ingoring the rules, it's by following the proper procedure. If someone want's something changed in the rules, as long as it does not effect the property value in the area, I will help get the necessary signitures (90%) to change the rule. Even if I personally do not agree with the change, I will still do my part to help follow procedure and inform other homeowners" ( I lost by a few votes, but again, I really didn't want the appointment at this time anyway)

Plus, if I do it right, I can have first access to the prime areas before the change is really "advertised". Okay, so there is a little greed, but it never hurts and have a heads up. If I am successful, and I hunt the best spots, you can bet I will share the info with others, clubs and places that sell equipment, of the change. There are several surrounding counties that do not have restrictions like this, I would just rather have something a little closer to home to hunt.

This is a very historical area. Let's face it, Cabarrus County was involved in the Revolutionary War, Civil War and the first gold in the US was discovered here. (Reed Gold Mine)

Hopefully with a little trial and error, I and we, can slowly make changes at all level of government. Remember, those laws we hate now, were created not by us, but by people that were elected at some point in time. If you want change, like MDing, it starts at the grass roots.
 

diggummup

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Re: Do you think we can change the laws? (I already got a hopeful repsonse!)

I'm glad to hear your efforts aren't going unnoticed and will be brought up at the next meeting.I think the bigger crime being committed is all the garbage we dig up and also see lying around in parks.If these rangers and park officials would spend half as much time watching those who litter,as they do watching those who metal detect,we wouldn't have to dig bottlecaps and pulltabs at a ratio of 40-1 to every coin dug.All parks are paid for by taxpayer monies and it's outright blasphemy that we can't detect in every park in this nation as far as i'm concerned.Good luck,hope it works out for you and all of us!
 

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TreasureTales

Guest
Re: Do you think we can change the laws? (I already got a hopeful repsonse!)

Wow nc-joe, you are a guy I would vote for in any election. You have ethics and you try to work within the system. I think this hobby needs more folks in it like you. Whatever the outcome of the commissioner's meeting, I know you got them thinking...and that's always good.

TheSleeper, I agree with your philosophy and you got our nation's history right on target. Unfortunately, it's an unrealistic stance. WE don't have control over whether we pay taxes or not. Most folks who have steady jobs have the tax withheld automatically before they even see their paychecks. And the prisons have a few inmates who have defied the IRS in their own attempts to defy or deny the federal and/or state its taxes. I don't like it any more than you do, but we have lost our spine as a nation of individuals.

spez401 is correct, we should and must work within the laws if we are to change them. We are so regulated and taxed and manipulated that to do otherwise will bring the wrath of not only the affected governmental agency, but also the wrath of many of our fellow citizens who find our hobby disgusting and immoral. Some of us may want to return to the days of the SPIRIT of Revolutionary War, but how can we when we have responsibilities and limits and the full force of the government holding us in check. And frankly, if everybody who wanted to "do his own thing" actually did, we would have CHAOS. nc-joe is doing it the correct way, and we should all try to follow his example.

I personally know a man who is a member of our local MD club who fought city hall and WON. WE were not allowed to dig in the lawn at city parks. He contacted the mayor and explained that there are retrieval methods that don't require digging, but rather probing and popping. He had his day at the city council meeting and by gawd he won the approval of an amendment to the parks department policy. Since that time, we have been legally allowed to probe and pop out items from beneath the surface of the soil, even in lawns, as long as we do not dig. The laws, particularly at the local level, can get changed.

nc-joe, please keep us informed of the progress and outcome of your campaign for MDing the local parks. Good work, and good luck!!
 

Monty

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Re: Do you think we can change the laws? (I already got a hopeful repsonse!)

When I was a young cop, barely over my rookie year I was assigned to the city jail for a stint. It was a good assignment because I got toknow all the really bad criminals by sight and it was to my advantage later on. The wisened old sergeant working the booking desk taught me a lot. One night a highly enraged citizen came in to inquire about one of his relatives that had landed in jail. He wanted to speak to him face to face and that was not permitted except on visiting days. When the old sarge, refused to let him in, the guy began cursing and ranting about how he pays the sergeant's salary and demanding his rights. The old sarge got out a note pad and did some figuring and then handed the man two bucks. The guy was completely puzzled and asked what that was for. The sarge told him that as best he could figure the guy paid about an dollar and 80 cents of his salary last year, so he gave it back to him and said, "Keep the change, I don't work for you anymore!" Best comeback I ever heard! Oh, the discourse on this post reminded me of this story as it usually does. ::) Hope your commish does some good for you, can't hurt to try. Also there's the old saying that you catch more flies with honey than you do with vinegar. Monty
 

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nc-joe

nc-joe

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Re: Do you think we can change the laws? (I already got a hopeful repsonse!)

Okay, this makes 2 of the 5 county commissioners, including the chairman and the head of the Parks and Rec commission on OUR side. I think that only leaves 3 more county commissioners and the remaining 6 members of the Park Board!

Thank you for calling this to our attention. I agree that our park
policies
needs some fine-tuning and address your concerns.

Merry Christmas!!!!

Coy Privette
County Commissioner
 

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nc-joe

nc-joe

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Dec 1, 2006
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Re: Do you think we can change the laws? (I already got a hopeful repsonse!)

Update, I rec'd a call from my County Parks and Rec commission, they have put the issue first on the agenda for this Thursday and requested I attend the meeting.

They sounded very optomistic and excited to hear the issue! ;D

Wish me luck!
 

Sandman

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Aug 6, 2005
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Re: Do you think we can change the laws? (I already got a hopeful repsonse!)

Keep at them Joe, that is how I got our county parks to allow metal detecting. However they still won't allow metal detecting in the water because of fabric under the sand. The few times someone detected on the beach they left holes and punched thru the fabric to ruin the beach.

It would help if you brought in a plastic bag of trash that you've removed from the parks and inform them that detectoist try to do the same. We also can help find lost volleyball corner stakes, etc.

Sandman
 

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TreasureTales

Guest
Re: Do you think we can change the laws? (I already got a hopeful repsonse!)

Good luck Joe!!! My hat is off to you and your efforts to change things via the system,
 

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treasurejack

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Re: Do you think we can change the laws? (I already got a hopeful repsonse!)

spez401,
I have to say that you presented your point/points very well, however, if, as you say, that laws are set in place to accommodate the "general public", then please explain why so many "special interest groups" seem to hold such "strong leverage" despite the concerns of the "general public?" The problem is that I have yet to meet a lawyer (and I am in no way bashing you personally) who is willing to say out loud that the legal system has become too distorted and twisted and that it is in serious need of fixing. "Money concerns, personal political venues, and industrial influences" should never outweigh, for better or worse, the desires of the general public! It was written, "We the people...." but it has become, "We who are in power or carry the most influence...." Sadly, we have arrived at a state in this country where the little people, "the same little people who labored to build this country and died fighting for it, and who also make up the vast majority", holds the smallest voice and leverage, and who are likewise given the smallest amounts of concern. So here's a suggestion I'd like to offer lawyers and lawmakers, the very same suggestion you offered the "general paying public" in your last reply to this post, "ban together" and challenge it for us! Greed is the problem Steve, and from what I've seen and read it runs extremely high among lawyers and lawmakers. I believe I read in one of your replies to a post concerning "money in a fire extinguisher" that you would have gladly taken the case for your usual 35%. "Why not 25% or 15%?" I agree with Sleeper, if and when the money stops coming in from the little guy only then will lawmakers certainly take notice. At present, I have a very good friend in Iraq who for all practical purposes fights for his life every single day, he is a smoker. Yet when he returns to this country he's going to be told that he no longer fits in socially with the new ideals of the very country he's fighting for. (The military always makes certain it's soldiers get their smokes.) Sorry Steve, but it always gets me hot whenever I hear a lawyer or lawmaker touting his advice or his support for a cause while holding one hand over his eyes to the real truth he simply doesn't want the masses to see. Plain and simple, the real root of the problem is greed!
PS: "Yes," I know exactly what I have written, read it twice, even edited it. But reacting on the advice of my lawyer I'm entering the plea of, "temporary insanity!" And by the way, I'm going to Florida soon where I will probably make, "an isolated find" or two? And in answer to the subject line of this post, "yes," you can change the law, that is, if you put enough money in all the right places.
 

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nc-joe

nc-joe

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Re: Do you think we can change the laws? (I already got a hopeful repsonse!)

Good read Spez. I will offer this though.....

1) We need lawyers on our side too.
2) Here in NC politicians are dropping like flys due to "unethical" behavior
3) Start local to make changes. (all politics are local)
4) Start a grass roots effort to change your representation if needed.
5) Avoid "labeling" based on political party affiliation only. Judge the person/idea.
6) Get involved
7) Don't just complain, offer solutions. (more than one, be flexible, the system did not get screwed up overnight, and it's not going to get fixed overnight)
8) Be passionate in what you are involved in.
9) Try to understand all sides of an issue.
10) Don't burn any bridges, someone that may not agree with you on one issue may be your best ally when you really need them.
11) Sometimes you just have to agree to disagree and walk away. (without showing your vertical smile)
12) If you fail to succeed, try and try again.
13) Use facts, provide examples whenever possible
14) HAVE FUN

Yes, "We the People..." own our parks. Not just me. I must be thoughtful of others, they pay their taxes, too. The laws in place were put there for a reason. It's truly a shame to think that something, sometime, sparked the need for some of these "rules" to be put into place. Just think for a minute, what happened to cause this law or rule to be written?

My approach to this meeting tomorrow will be simple. I am an average "Joe Six Pack". I love to MD. I can tell you by reviewing the "minutes" from the last several meetings, the plants, trees, shrubs and wildlife are very important to the Park Commission. This is the most talked about issue, whether it be determining how to construct a new park, or just a new shelter in an existing park. I have to present an enviromentally sensative sell. So, since a picture is worth a thousand words.... each Commissioner will receive a 7 photo process of proper excavation. (I used the pictures provided on detectorx.com) to show little or no evidence of an excavation. I will try to post those pics here on this post. I have prepared a brief presentation and summary of who I am, the clubs I belong to, each Commissioner will receive a copy of the "Code of Ethics" and finally, each will receive a list of "Benefits to our County and Each Community" the list is as follows:

1) Fastest growing recreational hobby in America
2) Encompasses all age, ethnic, gender and income groups
3) Recovery and preservation of historic artifacts
4) Assist local Park Rangers and Law Enforcement when needed
5) Assist local historic society when determining historical significance of future park locations
6) Return lost property to it's original owner whenever possible
7) Remove and properly dispose of Decades of discarded trash from public lands
8) Clubs, such as the Metal Detecting Association of the Carolinas, can assist in training and educating park staff.
9) Little or no evidence of excavations. NO damage to plants, trees, shrubs or wildlife.

They know what I (we) will get out of them opening the parks to MDing, but we need to focus and emphasize what they, and the community will get in return. Another member of the club has offered his support. He has documentation of the items he has donated to museums, historical societies, and letters of thanks from other area parks staff for helping to clean the parks. (His testimonials are "documented" proof we practice what we preach).

Although, based on the responces I have received by email from both the Parks Commission and the County Commission, and the phone conversation I had with the Parks Commission director earlier this week, I am very optomistic that a change will happen. But I can't go in thinking this is a done deal. I will have to sell, sell, sell. But everything each of them has promised to do, up to this point, has happened, and very fast (for government work). Believe it or not, if there is something you don't like, whether it be a Home Owners association restriction, local law, of federal law, there is a process to change it. But you have to follow the proper process and procedure, and you can't expect to get everything you want every time. Persistance will pay off.

Thanks for reading my rambling.
 

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