City-Wide Approval

[LinkHylian]

After hours of searching online and looking at our RCW codes I finally caved and sent our Parks and Recreation Department an email regarding metal detecting in the city parks. I had read a few horror stories online and I've had a few friends tell me some instances of the cops telling them off and threatening to take their detector.
The email I sent to them(some has been cut for length/privacy reasons):

"Good Morning,

I wasn’t sure if I should just come into the S. Center to speak with you about this or if email was more appropriate. I suppose I’ll start here and see where this takes me. I’ll do my best to make it quick: I am interested in Metal Detecting the city parks. I have not been able to locate any rules/laws that govern this except for the “State” Parks of WA.

I would abide by the same rules as the State Parks/City Parks, i.e allowable tools and time frames of day along with all the rest. The link at bottom shows rules and RCW references.(I did not include link on this post) All pull tabs and trash would be picked up as well as all holes being filled in. If there were activities going on I would detect somewhere else and skip that park entirely. I have no interest in artifacts, as I know that is the main concern from Archeologists towards my hobby.

Please do consider my request. I’d hunt alone normally, some days my girlfriend would tag along with me though. I hope that I am speaking to the right people about this, however if I am not, could you please point me in the right direction? If you’d like to speak with me in person I’d love to come in and chat. If this is allowed I would need something in writing that I could take with me while detecting.

Thank you for your time,

Ben"

Here's the response, not even two days later!!:

"We will allow you to metal detect in our general parks. However, we do not want people digging with shovels. Methods of investigation should be done with small spade type instruments and if turf is lifted out of place, it should be pressed back into place and stepped on to make it firm. If we were to see someone going beyond what we deem acceptable, we would make contact with them and ask them to stop, if they continue or we see them in similar actions again, we will contact our Police Department."

I will have over 30 parks available to me with over 5 of them being around since 1910!!!! I have never seen any detectorists EVER and I've been here for years. The original emails I am going to print and then go to Kinko's for a thin lamination. If you are in WA State around May/June and want to do some park hunting then send me a p.m. I have no problems sharing this good fortune with any of you. Of course all will be split 50/50, regardless if I find it or not

 

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[hunter_46356]

Ben, Of course I too could go to the governing municipality and request permission to Metal Detect local parks. I'm guessing their response to you was explaining their ordinances and rules applying to anyone wishing to use the parks in this manor. I believe they would give me the OK as well. Then I could keep 100% of what I find. Maybe you didn't intend to give the impression but it almost sounds like you believe you have soul permission to detect. I hope I'm wrong in my saying so. If you ever come to IN. look me up I have several spots to detect and you can keep 100% of whatever you find. Craig

 

[Mortamus]

If your in In. then you need to look up the erie canal and the wabash canals......mucho coins from the past my friends......

 

[hunter_46356]

Wow, Just did some quick research and found I need to do a lot more. I am very familiar with the Wabash River Corridor but had no idea that some or all of it was possibly man made. I have gold prospected in several tributaries feeding the Wabash. The river itself is a known hot spot for dredgers. Mortamus with the canal meandering over 490 some miles through Indiana I'm assuming the historical locations such as old towns and such along the way would be the best place to start MDing or can you give me some more hints. I have a feeling you have some interesting info. on the subject. Already started trying to find some historical maps but with that much area to cover it may take a while. I guess right now I have more than enough time for that till the frost is gone.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Link-hylian, thanx for posting of your experience here. If you don't mind, I'd like to analyze it point-by-point:

a) You mention that in your email to the fellow, that you had incorporated in that text to him, for reference, the " link at bottom shows rules and RCW references". So is this to say that after the "hours of searching on-line", that you HAD found the rules for your parks? Then in that case, I'm confused. It sounds like your research had found the park rules in detail form. And apparently they were silent on anything about detecting? ( nothing saying "no detectors"?). Then it sounds to me like you'd found your answer. No?

b) If the answer to (a) was this quote from you: "I had read a few horror stories online and I've had a few friends tell me some instances of the cops telling them off and threatening to take their detector." If there were no rule saying "no detecting", then ... no..... there is not going to be any "taking of detectors". If you can cite any such incident of someone having "their detector confiscated" when there was no such rule or law saying "no detecting", please do. But I believe no examples will be forthcoming, unless there were an actual rule, or someone who couldn't take a warning, etc... Now could there be a story of someone getting booted when no rule saying "no detecting" was there? SURE! Anyone can morph something else to apply. Usually the dreaded "defacement" and "alterations" verbage. But if the day comes, where we md'rs think that we should pre-empt that, and do as you have done (go in and ask, even to the point of, like you, informing them that you'll dig, but that you'll be sure to replace the divot) then this is a scary day indeed. Because while you might have gotten a "yes", there are also no shortage of posts from people who've gotten a "no". And the sad part is, that a lot of those places where a "no" was given, was parks where it was never an issue, and no one cared (as long as you avoided certain busy-bodies, and weren't being a nuisance leaving a mess, etc...). This happened in my town, for instance, where someone took it upon themselves to go to city hall and ask permission. They got a "no". They passed the word to the rest of the md'ing people at the club, which was "news to us". Because, doh, the parks had just been detected till then, and no one had ever cared or had a problem (as long as, like I say, you weren't wearing a big-red bullseye waltzing over people's beach blankets).

c) A lot of people, in the situation like yours, take the "yes" or "no" answer they get, to imply, to them, that "it's a good thing I asked!". Because if they got a "no", they think:

"well it's a good thing I asked, otherwise I could have been arrested".

Or if they get a "yes", they think:

"well it's a good thing I asked, because now I can detect".

So either answer to them, merely re-affirms in their mind that they "needed to ask". Because, I guess to them, if permission HADN'T been needed, then the desk-clerk would have answered something like: "Gee, that's a silly question. Why are you asking me? You don't need our permission, since there's no rules against it". But no, it never works like that. Persons in authority will always give either a princely "yes" or a princely "no" to such a question. The mere fact that you are standing there in front of them asking, merely presumes that their sanction was needed, to begin with (lest why would you be asking, if you didn't need their permission?). Thus they will answer yes or no, based on their personal feelings, whims, images and connotations they envision, and/or whatever they think can morph to apply to this "pressing issue". Thus to me, a "yes" or "no", does not mean that, ergo, I had needed to ask, to begin with. Afterall, if the answer you'd gotten had been "no", then what would you have done? If you'd not seen any prohibitions (which apparently you didn't), then would you have asked them "but where is that written"? And if so, do you really think you'd prevail in such a debate? Keep in mind that a lot of such desk-bound bureaucrats perhaps never would have given the matter a moment's though, nor have paid a 2nd glance to someone in a park detecting. In other words, if you'd gotten a "no", it could also have been a case: of no-one-caring-TILL-you-asked.

d) Not sure where you looked on-line, but if a city or county's muni codes aren't there (as is sometimes the case with smaller towns w/no websites, or counties with very cryptic non-detailed websites), yet the entire volumes of laws, codes, regulations, city-charter, etc.... HAS to be available SOMEWHERE, for public viewing. Eg.: perhaps down at city hall, in binder form, on the front desk, etc.... In other words, no laws are "secret", that a public citizen couldn't have looked up, yet somehow be held culpable for breaking a law, which there was no public source or way to view them.

I'm glad you got a "yes". You say you will now have over 30 parks available" to you. You could also look at it this way: they were already "available" to you, if there were nothing saying you couldn't be there. Success stories such as yours, inevitably encourage people to go off and do the same (reading and thinking "gee that looked easy!") Yet the results are unfortunately often not the same as yours. In fact, there's places where...... if there were nothing on the specific subject, that some places actually enact rules forbidding it (since the mere question itself seems to imply some sort of "danger" or "damage" or "need of a clarification", etc.... lest why would you be asking, if it were innocuous and harmless?). And as I say, sadly some of these "no's" or "new rules" come in places where no one had ever had a problem before. Ironically, it's not only the "yes's" stories like yours that prompt more people to go to city and county halls across the USA, but also the stories of the "no's" as well. People read such "horror stories", and ALSO feel the need to ask, as well. Again, the answer of either "yes" or "no", reinforcing to them that permission was necessary (or else, the desk-bound person would have said "you don't need to ask that", which, as I say, is never an answer you'll get from authority).

 

[cudamark]

You were lucky. You could have just as easily gotten a "NO" even though there apparently isn't an ordinance against it. Most governmental officials will take the path of least resistance. Saying "No" is much easier than "YES" with conditions attached.

 

[LinkHylian]

I don't think I have sole permission, although that'd be friggin crazy haha.
The point that I'm trying to get at is this:
I felt I did a large amount of research and could only locate the "State" parks here. Here's for the parks folks, print a few if you come visit!!
metal detecting washington state - Google Search
CLICK THE FIRST LINK
I've always enjoyed reading RCW's and Ordinances(spelling?), and that's why I was so interested in this. I liked writing the email to them, somehow it felt personal. I especially wanted something in writing. Either in the form of an email or some link to a law that I could just print out because I couldn't find ANYTHING for inner city.
A lot of people are skeptics, I like having proof when somebody asks me. We all know not all cops know, not all people know that its ok to detect. I've never seen anyone else detect, but I am but one person. Although just me never seeing anyone metal detect is good enough for me to believe I have a chance at some good ground.
Sigh, not one person has mentioned anything Zelda to me after reading my screen name. If I said that I located an old school Gold Zelda Cartridge with my AT Gold would you laugh?

 

[cudamark]

I think we need a section called: "Do I need permission" and put Tom's response as a sticky! You just know more people are going to ask about it and maybe do the wrong thing.

 

[cudamark]

You have proof of what? You're still under the whim of the government. In their response, they say they will call the police if "we were to see someone going beyond what we deem acceptable" Now you've brought the subject to their attention where they probably had never heard or cared about it in the past.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

linkhylian, Please don't feel like anyone is trying "beat up on you". This is a relevant topic that bears discussing, so thanx for posting your experience. So don't take anything I'm saying in a bad way please.

You say: "I like having proof when somebody asks me..." Sure. But you could DO that already! You merely print out the rules of your city parks, and carry them with you. And if "somebody asks" you, you can pull it out, and show them that there's no rules saying "no detecting". Thus your goal of "proof" is satisfied, without having to ask a desk-bound person for permission. How is that not equally "proof" ?

I know you feel better that you've got a specific "yes", personally to you. And, heck, you even got someone to tell you "go ahead and dig, as long as it's a small trowel, and you cover your spots". But do you know how RARE that is? It's almost always a flat "no digging". I have seen very few turfed parks, like yours, that say "go ahead and dig, just cover your holes" . I mean, I'm glad you got a "yes". Admittedly, that sort of "yes" is hard to argue with, and it would even deflect busy-bodies who come up and gripe, EVEN for the holes issue (in addition to the concept of just the detector alone).

All we're trying to say is, you got very lucky. The more common results are not like this. Or they'll say something silly like "yes, but you can't dig".

Here's the same thing, on a state-wide scale, as to whether it would be "good" for someone to go asking:

http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/g...why-not-ask-innocuous-public-places-long.html

And here's a typical example of the risks on a city level:

http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/general-discussion/330470-ban-detecting.html

 

[LinkHylian]

I just like that I have something, in hand, as permission from Parks and Recreation here. Much like any other permit; fishing, hunting, Discovery Pass etc.
Even if it's already legal here, which I haven't seen anywhere but the email, I don't mind that I asked them. I loved it, LOVED it. Whether or not it's me talking to the "man" and abiding by their rules makes no difference to me in THIS ISSUE.
Like I posted earlier, someday somebody will give me flack, I'm glad I have this covered. It'll feel good whippin' it out on um.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

I think we need a section called: "Do I need permission" and put Tom's response as a sticky! You just know more people are going to ask about it and maybe do the wrong thing.

Haha Mark, yeah I know, I'm anal on the topic, as I've seen, from my 35+ yrs., and as a past president of a club, the evolution of this. It became a bur-in-my-bonnet at some point, and thus intrigues me There already is a "legal" section of T-net, but like a lot of the sub-forums here, doesn't get a lot of readers, as most people just read the main 7 or 8 bigger sections.

I have recently thought of just getting one giant "link" to the dozen or so common scenarios, of the various ways the issue comes up. Then rather than typing out each time, I can just post a link and say "read here"

 

[cudamark]

I agree Tom, I didn't to sound like I was beating him up for asking permission. I just want (as you do) to alert people to the pitfalls to asking bureaucrats permission for things they have no expertise in. I'm glad he got a "YES" also, but what happens now when the "YES" man moves on to another job and "NO" man takes his place. Yeah, the legal section might be the place for the sticky but it needs to be prominent for newbies and the uninformed.

 

[LinkHylian]

I didn't think any of you were beating up on me. I could tell that you were valid in your concerns and I very much appreciate the other side of the scope that I may have missed.
I don't think it's going to be a big thing with the city. I'm sure it was just "another email" in the Parks and Recreation Department.
I work in Corrections so that's why I enjoy the Munis and RCW's. It's interesting to find things the state may have missed or just hasn't run into yet. I especially like looking for loopholes and simple things placed under a broad umbrella.
Our city parks don't have anything in the pamphlet about metal detecting, but that's why I wanted something in writing. Because I agree with you all that most of the time people would rather just say "no" because it's so much easier and less paperwork.
I guess I didn't post this in the right forum either, my bad guys sorry. I just placed it in the Metal Detecting portion but will do it properly next time.

 

[cudamark]

No Problem. It's good to bring up major issues on the main detecting board now and then just to get more people involved. Sometimes the other boards don't get much action.

 

[Mortamus]

I went into City Hall in Palm Desert Ca. and asked if MDing was ok in their city parks....they checked and checked and then said sure it is ok !!

I go to the park and someone called and said "someone is digging in the park" so park employees come over to me and say " Metal detecting is allowed..but no digging...."
HUH

 

[Tom_in_CA]

I went into City Hall in Palm Desert Ca. and asked if MDing was ok in their city parks....they checked and checked and then said sure it is ok !!

I go to the park and someone called and said "someone is digging in the park" so park employees come over to me and say " Metal detecting is allowed..but no digging...."
HUH

Mortamus, Yup, and such is the common scenario! When an md'r feels he has to "go ask at city hall", yet we all have the "presence of mind" not go dropping phrases like "digging" and "holes" and "treasure" and so forth? Right? We just use the euphamism "metal detecting", so as not to fish for them to conjur up mental images that might make them say "no". Thus the md'r sometimes gets a "yes". Then the first time the md'r bumps into an irate gardener or cop, they proudly whip out their "permission". Then guess what happens to that "permission" when the gardener or cop gets on the phone, calls down to city hall and says ".... but he's tearing the place up!" (which of course isn't true, and you know full well you'd have left no trace when you were done).

In my opinion, we md'rs are not technically running afoul of such verbage rules (about digging, defacing, altering, etc...). Because technically speaking, all such verbage implicitly refers to the end result. So if you leave no trace, then technically you haven't altered or defaced anything, now have you? But granted, you will loose the debate of semantics, if you try to go against someone on this (because of the connotation, and visual image, and temporary evil procress of extraction). So the trick is: AVOID SUCH BUSY-BODIES. Go at low traffic times

Moral of the story? Avoid such lookie-lou busy bodies. Go at low traffic times. Heck, it's even gotten to where I hunt parks at night nowadays, or early AM's when no one else is there. If I see that's landscape day at a particular park, then I choose another park, and so forth. I mean, let's face it guys: detecting is a little like nose-picking. May not be technically illegal, but we all .... uh .... choose a little discretion in our timing, and what someone else doesn't see, won't bother them.

If this still bothers you, that something can be morphed (the dreaded "digging" verbage) to apply to your hobby, then your choice is: a) only detect for things on top of the ground, b) only hunt private property, or c) choose another hobby. Because it's very un-likely you're ever going to "get permission" in the folllowing scenario: Wallk into any city hall in the USA, approach the front counter, and say "Hi, is it ok if I dig and deface the park, for my own personal fun and enjoyment?" Of COURSE they'll say no.

I read a humorous story of one hunter, who felt he should ask, and felt he should lay it all on the line about how ... yes he'll dig, but .... don't worry, he won't leave any holes or marks, etc... The confused desk clerk looked long and hard through her booklets, manuals, binders, etc.... and couldn't seem to find any reason to tell the fellow "no". But she tells the fellow: "Hold on a minute". She excuses herself from the front desk, and retreats to the hallways behind her. The md'r could see her walking back to various other superior's offices, apparently forwarding the issue/question on to them for further in-put. Eventually she returns to the front desk, and tells the fellow: "Sorry, but I'm going to have to tell you no". The md'r felt this was arbitrary and whimsical, so he asked her "but where is that written?" (thinking the burden would be on her to cite such an actual rule). The lady therefore hands the fellow a pamphlet from the local utility co. And the pamphlet had to do with the effect of "call before you dig". The picture on the front of the pamphlet, was of a back-hoe tractor. The md'r laughed, and handed it back to her, saying "but mam, that's talking about heavy equipment and deep sewer pipes, utilities, and so forth. I'm only going to be digging a few inches deep!" The lady took the pamphlet back and studied it again, leafing through the pages. She handed it back to the man, and said "but sir, the pamphlet doesn't say HOW deep, it just says "all digging", so we're still going to have to tell you no". The md'r left more confused, than when he'd arrived.

 

[B1u3Dr4g0n1]

LOL...that's how it always goes...If you ask then they usually say NO....but if you just do it, and leave no trace, even if you get caught, they can only tell you to leave...Its the same with panning for gold in a creek around here....If I ask they look at me stupid and say ...Sir, you know there isnt no gold in Indiana..lol. So, its like I have to argue with them just to prove that...so I just find a public bridge put my waders on and jump in ...never touching there bank and do my panning...then IF, which is rare, if I get caught they say ......what are you doing...while im standing in the middle of the creek..and I say IM PANNING FOR GOLD....they laugh shake there head and say if you tare up my bank im calling the cops..and I have NEVER seen any cops...LOL

I'v had people tell me I can MD but not dig it up....and I ask, what is the point in knowing something is there if you cant see what it is? I'v had to show how I dig to a few to get permission, but after that, they were completely happy with it...but I'm a little anal and even carry a spray bottle to spray the plug when all is done....peace

 

[LinkHylian]

Spray the plug? Please explain as that caught my curiosity.

LOL...that's how it always goes...If you ask then they usually say NO....but if you just do it, and leave no trace, even if you get caught, they can only tell you to leave...Its the same with panning for gold in a creek around here....If I ask they look at me stupid and say ...Sir, you know there isnt no gold in Indiana..lol. So, its like I have to argue with them just to prove that...so I just find a public bridge put my waders on and jump in ...never touching there bank and do my panning...then IF, which is rare, if I get caught they say ......what are you doing...while im standing in the middle of the creek..and I say IM PANNING FOR GOLD....they laugh shake there head and say if you tare up my bank im calling the cops..and I have NEVER seen any cops...LOL

I'v had people tell me I can MD but not dig it up....and I ask, what is the point in knowing something is there if you cant see what it is? I'v had to show how I dig to a few to get permission, but after that, they were completely happy with it...but I'm a little anal and even carry a spray bottle to spray the plug when all is done....peace

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Spray the plug? Please explain as that caught my curiosity.

I believe what he is referring to, is to moisten the plug thoroughly, so that it's more likely for the roots to re-attach, stay alive and rejoin the surrounding roots. Because sometimes, if you've ever been to a park where you've hunted when the ground is dry, and you've cut plugs .......... if you come back a week later, sadly, you'll often-time see a bunch of brown circles (doh!) where the plug died. By wetting them down, theoretically, they're less likely to die.