Apr 11, 2013, 03:42 PM
I had already sent him a email . Lol Just trying to decide if thus a hobby that like all rights are being taken . Before I drop more money . Don't want to have to drive all over the place .
Apr 11, 2013, 03:45 PM
Public parks are not public I guess . Now if you are making a mess then I could see it . Hell in the sand pits I'm cleaning out trash . Things children could step on . Maybe I can start a business protecting the kiddes . Lol
Apr 11, 2013, 04:00 PM
Dwight Frye, there is the harsh-cruel reality that detecting is an eye-magnet, for curious on-lookers. No getting around that. LOTS of people see us, and think "wow, I wonder if he's finding anything" and "gee, how deep does it go" and "what's the best thing you've ever found" and "gee, I wonder if he'll leave holes" and so forth. Everyone wants to know what the "man with the geiger-counter-thingy" is doing. I mean, put yourself in their shoes. We're in an admittedly odd hobby. No amount of "getting permission" changes that. If ANYTHING, thinking you need to ask permission JUST PERPETUATES and FURTHERS that notion, that it's something dangerous, or risky, etc... that you "needed permission" to begin with (lest why would you be asking, if it were inherently harmless?) This is not subconsciously lost on the person you are asking, so .... guess what the easy answer is going to be?
Thus I hate to say it, but this hobby is a little like nose-picking. Nothing *technically* illegal about nose-picking, but ...... if you did it on the corner of Main and 4th St. long enough, then sure, someone could morph something and say you were being an "annoyance" or that you need a parade permit for "demonstrations", or whatever. Thus, just like nose-picking, you learn to be .... uh .... a little discreet in your timing. I've gotten to where I hunt parks at the most low-trafficked times (even at night!). NOT because I think there's necessarily any rule forbidding detecting, but JUST so that no one comes up and morphs something else to apply, or objects, etc....
And just to be clear, I don't doubt that if someone got permission (a "yes") from a city-hall somewhere that ..... yes, there are probably times where that "permission" did and could indeed deflect a busy-body. Ie.: you merely whip out your "permission", and the gardener or cop slinks away and apologizes. There *could* be examples of that happening. But there is also the risk (and the greater risk in my opinion), of either of the following 2 things happening: a) that you get a "no", simply because you asked, and you'd have been ignored if you'd just gone, or b) that you get a "yes", only to get it promptly revoked the minute the gardener or cop gets on his cell-phone, calls down to city hall, and says ".... but he's tearing the place up" (even though that's not true).
So, I wish the red carpets were rolled out wherever we go. And I wish there were neon signs saying "detecting and digging welcome here". But alas, it's simply not going to happen. If someone is that skittish and worried that everyone might not love them and their hobby, then ...... alas, I fear they have chosen the wrong hobby.
Last edited by Tom_in_CA; Apr 11, 2013 at 04:17 PM.
Metal detecting is my one worldy vice!
Apr 11, 2013, 04:41 PM
Well I just started , and I do go at off times . I have been there three times before . I do not see the harm myself . He said they tear up the field . I said I don't do playing fields . I fill my plugs which will disapear after it rains of course . I'm going to check to see if he's full of **** . I wonder if nothing is on the books and they ask you to leave and you refuse , what happens
Apr 11, 2013, 05:14 PM
Ah, excellent legal question. Here's the scoop: There is nothing to stop a "duly appointed public official" from making a judgement call that you are afoul of some law (even if not "specific"). And then yes, their superiors will usually side with them, if it came up for appeals, etc... . Because you see Dwight, some laws are PURPOSEFULLY written vaguely, so as to as to apply to a myriad of circumstances that may arise in the field. In other words, it's impossible to truly list every-single-thing that is "illegal". That's why there's vague laws that .... for example .... forbid "annoyances" or "disturbances", and so forth. Then officer (or any public worker) can do his job, when odd-ball things arise. I mean, if it WASN'T that way, then society would all into chaos, and people would be forever debating cops about semantics, in the field. There HAS to be leeway for a cop to do his job, because various nuances of issues can arise.
Originally Posted by Dwight Frye
Yes it's arbitrary. Yes it's capricious. Yes it can be "whimsical". But barring something glaringly un-fair, most of the time, when it comes to routine things like "whether or not something was harming the grass", then .... truth-be-told ..... most superiors down at city hall, or judges, or whatever, are going to side with the rank-&-file person in the field. Because if they didn't (if they perpetually sided with the John-Q-public), then as I say, cops could never get their jobs done, and would effectively have no power to do their job, and their job morale would plummit.
But the mere fact that something *could* be morphed to apply to my hobby (the usual damage or alterations type verbage) does NOT mean that .... therefore, I need to, or should, go down and "head it off" at the pass, and ask "can I?" type questions. I mean, so too could a frisbee "poke someone's eye out" or "annoy" someone, etc... But no, even though that *might* happen, no one thinks they need to ask "can I fly frisbees". Sure we can debate that one is more inherently prone to produce damage to the other. We can debate how accurate or analogous that comparison is. Sure they're not identical in associated risks or complaints. But it does serve a point. And if you START with the ASSUMPTION that your hobby is inherently dangerous, wrong, evil, damaging, stealing, avoiding taxes, and breaks harvesting and collecting clauses (if all those things are "automatically" equivalent to detecting), then I have to ask that person: Why the heck did you ever get into detecting? I mean, didn't it occur to them that they might have to "Dig" to find the target? Or that not all archies are going to love them?
Thus yes, to answer your question, if told to "move on", then sure, give lip service. (and then avoid "just that one person" or "just that one park" in the future for awhile). But no, it doesn't mean that therefore, we need to ask.
Last edited by Tom_in_CA; Apr 11, 2013 at 05:16 PM.
Metal detecting is my one worldy vice!
Apr 11, 2013, 05:52 PM
Director-Search & Recovery Team of Oakland County.
You would do well to learn how to pop shallow coins out with a screw driver too. Lots less damage and you can pass up the deeper targets that cause plugs that lawn mowers can suck out. Also animals dig up plugs thinking something is buried and us detectorist get blamed for the damage.
Listen to Tom of CA.
(C) Sandman, 2005. All Rights Reserved.
"TIME IS THE ONLY THING YOU NEVER GET BACK, WHY WASTE IT SWINGING A DETECTOR THAT ISN'T UP TO THE TASK."
Apr 11, 2013, 07:07 PM
Course I disagree about laws not being specfuc . First of all we have innumerable laws. Google it , they cannot even estimate how many . Being a libertarian I believe we only need a few laws , murder , rape etc . And zero to no govt . My degree was in Economics and I have studied many issues and come to believe society would be way better off policing itself . There would be bad things happen but not to the magntude now . Plus way way cheaper , free market . Course anything better than the communists nation we are . This is just another example . Cops should not use judgement , they are not smart enough for that . Went arrest it costs money that the average person cannot afford . The law should be black and white . This came to me from laws prof and cops also . They are power hungry . Individual rights period . Just my opinion , which will never happen . People do not learn govt makes prooblems to enslave . Make you a list of freedom left that don't require asking . It will be zero or very short at best .
Apr 11, 2013, 07:20 PM
I guess I am in the minority here. Before I detect in a new town or city, I call the police department (they're the ones who enforce the laws) and ask this:
"Are there any laws pertaining to metal detecting on town/city property such as parks or schools". Yes or no answer. I get the name of the person (usually an officer/dispatcher) and note it in a small notebook I carry with me. I have never been stopped or asked to leave a place. I won't ask at town/city hall - I go to the PD, that way if I AM asked to leave a public property by a police officer, I can say, "I spoke with officer XYZ and he told me there is no problem detecting here". I never, ever mention digging, holes or anything else that can be construed as damaging to the property.
This is my 2 cents...hope it helps.
"You'll never find your gold on a sandy beach". - Jim Steinman (musician)
You can bet he never used a metal detector!!!
Apr 11, 2013, 07:44 PM
Might work ..ill vibe it a try .
Apr 11, 2013, 07:56 PM
Anita, your tactic has been discussed here before. Basically, it's the tactic of not going in and asking "can I metal detect in the park?". But RATHER, phrasing it carefully so-as-to put the burden of proof on them, to CITE such a law or rule (if one existed). Eg.: "Is there anything that prohibits metal detecting?" or "are there any rules that address metal detectors?" and so forth. And yes, you can take it a step further and ask the police dept. (which usually admittedly has BETTER things to worry about in today's crime-ridden society!), as opposed to city-hall or park's dept, which might answer differently.
Originally Posted by AC1955
And you're right, this is certainly better than asking "can I do such & such?" (as if you're asking their personal whim or opinion). And appears to put the burden of proof on them to city any rule, if one existed. That is certainly an improvement.
But with the following notations:
a) Some people have done just that, and STILL gotten odd responses, like 1) yes but you can't dig (EVEN THOUGH YOU NEVER MENTIONED "DIGGING" or "HOLES", etc..) 2) We would prefer you didn't (as if you had just asked their "opinion" or 3) "no" you can't (as if you'd just asked them permission). And in each case, if you press them and say "but where is that written?", guess who's going to win that debate? They merely morph something else they say applies.
b) I notice that you are careful in your wording to keep any mention of "digging" or "holes", OUT of the question. Good. Because of course you and I know we will leave no trace of our presence, so ..... that fulfills the spirit of any such rules or morphing on that end, RIGHT? But even when you've gotten a "yes" to your type of phrasing, it still doesn't stop you from being there in the the field (permission or not) and having someone come up and gripe. I mean, afterall you are "digging" and you "never mentioned that in your request". Doh! Thus yes, people have proudly produced their "permission", only to have it just-as-quickly revoked in-shame, when the city-worker gets on his cell-phone, calls down to city hall, and claims ".... but he's digging the place up!"... (which of course isn't true, but do you really think you're going to win that debate?)
c) I notice you say that in all the time you've used this tactic (of careful phrasing of your question to the police), that: " I have never been stopped or asked to leave a place". When you say you've "never been stopped", do you mean that .... you've never even been "carded"? Ie.: forced to cite your authority, their subsequent "yes" and so forth? If so, then is that assume that if you'd NEVER asked, that ....... the results would have been the same? In other words, if no one ever came up to attempt to stop you, then, the outcome is exactly the same it seems, since the "yes" or whatever never came into play?
Last edited by Tom_in_CA; Apr 11, 2013 at 07:58 PM.
Metal detecting is my one worldy vice!
Apr 11, 2013, 08:01 PM
I just searched sites in the town and could not even rules or anthing on metal detecting . ?
Apr 15, 2013, 05:50 PM
I live in Irving Tx, I called the non emergency Police number an ask if it was ok, she put me on hold for about three minutes and cane back and said that it is ok. I guess it varies town to town, Good luck finding a place to hunt !!
Apr 15, 2013, 06:49 PM
Well obviously you did not mention that you were about to "dig" in public parks, right? Or if you had phrased it: "can I take items from the park for my own personal profit and enjoyment", they might have answered differently.
Originally Posted by Mr Redneck
There was a fellow who, like you, got a "yes" from San Francisco parks dept, as to their parks. When a few others-of-us heard this, we asked this newbie md'r fellow: "Who told you this?". Our thinking was, that .... as long as it was "past-tense" asking, that this information ("yes") was a good thing to have, in case any of needed to deflect busy-bodies. Unfortunately, the newbie had failed to get the desk-clerk's name, at the time he'd asked. So the guy went BACK in to the SF park's dept, a few weeks later, to get the the guy's name who'd told him "yes". However, this time someone else was sitting at the front desk counter. The md'r asked for the name of the person who'd been manning this post about 3 weeks earlier. As the two persons talked, it became apparent that they were not able to figure out who-it-was the md'r had talked to earlier, since the dept. is so big, and various shifts and people watch the desk, etc... But ...... NO PROBLEM, the md'r simply asks the person who is standing there this time ... the same question: "Can I metal detect in SF parks?". However THIS person gives the following answer: "yes but you can't dig" (even though the inquirer never mentioned "digging").
So you see from that, that it all depends on who you ask, their mental perceptions, their mood, etc....
Not sure how big your of Irving is, but I bet that if you called back tomorrow, or asked a different person in that dept, you might get a different answer. Depends on their mental perceptions, their mood, what they morph to fit your question, etc... Why subject yourself to that? Just look it up for yourself. And if there's nothing there that said "no metal detecting", then that's your answer.
Metal detecting is my one worldy vice!
Apr 17, 2013, 12:21 AM
Wow I can mark nc off of the list of places I WOULD LIKE TO VISIT OR LIVE IN.
Originally Posted by vpnavy
Dig till it hurts, then dig until its too dark to see anymore.
Apr 17, 2013, 12:43 AM
Well I like public parks and here is what I did. I went to the office of parks and recreation and asked for a permit. I got one for free. I went to the BLM office too, I like to hunt BLM, got the info I needed there. I have never been asked to leave, but would if someone did. I consider detecting leaving a small foot print and removing metals that eventually end up in the water system. Oh, learn how to dig a hole........as mentioned before, I will just probe shallow targets if the park is real busy.
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