Arghhhh bottle caps and a discrimination question?

[Daryn]

If I had a penny for every bottle cap I have found I would buy my ATPro!!! I am talking 50 or more a day in various parks.


If I discriminate bottle caps on my ACE 350, what do I risk missing while detecting?

Thanks,
Daryn

 

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[Tom_in_CA]

You're failing to way what type of bottle caps are giving you fits. Are you talking about "crown" cap type? (the types that eventually rust, etc...) Or screw-cap type bottle caps? Because the setting for bottle cap reject on your 350 is, I believe, for the crown-cap type. Those are easy to knock out, because they contain iron in them (hence the eventual rust). And they don't give a good consistent signal, and are easy to discern with varying sweep speeds, etc...

HOWEVER, the SCREW-CAP kind of bottle cap is a different story. Those are nicely made aluminum (and some are hefty, at that!), that read up as high as the zinc penny range (depending on brand, size, etc... of screwcap).

I'm not a 350 user, but I think your 350 has only broad "catch-all" categories for various items. Like ... only a handful of "quadrants" that it lumps things into, right? Hence a screwcap might fall in the "zinc" or "square tab" type range, right? However, on other machines, that have lots more TID features, you can indeed tell the screw-caps apart from pennies, dimes, zinc, etc.... Like on my explorer, those land a little to the left (however, on the same axis for the up/down, yet the left-side reading gives them away).

Thus there are machines where you can ignore them. Not sure if the 350 is one of them (unless you want to also reject broad categories of coins and items that ALSO fall in that section). Thus if you really want to dig shallow stuff (modern) at parks, and really want to pass screwcaps, the 350 might not be the tool for that job. Personally, if it were me, I'd be passing shallow screwcaps, to begin with SIMPLY because they're shallower, and I'm only looking for deep silver and old coins (which tend to be deeper, and thus whispers, as opposed to the loud BONG of shallow clad and screw-caps).

So you might simply consider finding better place to hunt (not so junky), or skipping all shallow stuff (if you're quest is old coins). Or if your quest is for jewelry, then junky parks is NOT the place to be hunting, to begin with. Go to swimming beaches. And then ... sure .... there you chase those type signals hoping for larger men's gold rings or whatever.

 

[kshollywood]

The last bottle cap signal I got was a 10 gram gold wedding band. I dig them all.

 

[BadM0nkey]

I have a 350 and a bottle cap comes up just like my wedding ring....

 

[Daryn]

It is a nightmare with the 350. I know I just bought he thing but I should have got a detector with VDI. I am definately upgrading next year.

 

[jmoller99]

VDI numbers may not help all that much, since its just a conductivity value, and while it seems consistent for specific targets, depth, orientation of the target as well as what else is in the ground right next it will all give you different VDI values. It will not help as much as you would expect. If you are looking in trashy areas, you might benefit from a smaller coil as it covers a smaller area and is less affected by garbage nearby. In my case (I prospect for gold - the high end gold detectors don't really have much in the way of diagnostic readings built into them), I dig probably 1000 trash targets before hitting a good (gold) target - I dig up the trash and throw it away if possible. I listen for the sounds targets make - that is often more useful than any VDI.

The Garrett 250's and 350's are great starter detectors - they have a lot of the same capabilites that the high end detectors have - they also have similar limitations. Trash will be an ever present issue, and if you tune it out (or think you have by looking solely at the VDI value), you will miss some exceptional targets.

I suggest that you create a target garden in your yard - ie. mark off an area where you have planted targets every 18 inches, in a grid - and marked them (I use golf tees pushed flat into the ground) so you can practice finding things. Save some of your trash targets and make sure they are part of your garden. When you run into someone with a detector you think is better, invite them over and do a side by side comparison of the detectors abilities. It will tell you if some unique feature set will do what you really think it will.

Note: My detector target garden has many things repeated at different depths and orientations - some target areas have a coin right next to a nail or other trash item - as this happens frequently in the real world).

I prefer non-VDI detectors (Like my Tesoro Compadre), but they take a while to get comfortable with. My Whites GMT only tries to guess how much the likely hood of the target is iron or not (and its wrong frequently - usually because of additional mineralization in the ground, which is something you have to deal with in gold areas) - however I find gold with it. But I practice frequently against known targets to so I can better understand what it is trying to tell me.

I have followed behind people with high end detectors and dug up great targets that they missed - because they mistakenly tuned out what they thought was trash. Having a VDI is simply a tool.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

It is a nightmare with the 350. I know I just bought he thing but I should have got a detector with VDI. I am definately upgrading next year.

You still have not told us which type bottle cap you are referring to: crown caps or aluminum screw caps? If you meant screw-caps, sure, you can buy a machine with more detailed TID. And yes there are machines that give more detailed TID coords for the various objects. Then yes, you can go to a park loaded with screwcaps, and pass them all day long (and *only* dig the copper pennies, dimes, quarters, etc..., or notch *just* those screwcaps out, and elect to also chase TIDS that read below there as well).

But honestly, as I said above, you can also pass them by simply ignoring the shallower hits (doesn't your Garrett have depth meter? And/or can't you tell by audio how deep the target is?). Becuase by notching them out (or ignoring everything in that TID range), you will indeed miss some other targets that fall into the same TID range. So it's also a function of the type beeps your chasing (deep vs shallow) and the type places you are hunting (junky urban parks vs relicky ghost town sites, etc...).

But yes, if you are strictly wanting to bulk up on clad from modern turfed parks, then yes, there are machines that can afford the ability to pass screw-caps. Sometimes, a corroded zinc, corroded to *just* the right level, might mimic some of those screwcaps. Depth plays into the accurateness of any machines TID too. So for example, a super deep screwcap, crushed to the right dimensions, might mimic an indian head cent.

 

[Treasure_Hunter]

VDI numbers is just a computer looking at targets signal and conductivity, GUESSING what it is and giving you numbers for what it thinks it is.. While they do help, if you discriminate out all bottle caps or VDI numbers for bottle caps and don't dig them your going to miss some gold targets.

Might just be me, but I would rather dig a hundred bottle caps or pull tabs that day than walk away from a gold ring that happen to have a $10,000 diamond sitting in it.



Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2

 

[Tom_in_CA]

reply

.... I would rather dig a hundred bottle caps or pull tabs that day than walk away from a gold ring that happen to have a $10,000 diamond sitting in it.....

Well, or you can look at it this way too: If you're at a place (turf anyhow) where you would average "100 bottle caps and pulltabs" for each gold ring, then ...... perhaps that's not the best place to be ring hunting .... TO BEGIN WITH. I can think of blighted turf zones where the ratio would be more like 1000 to 1. So the admonition to someone to "lower your disc. and dig tabs and caps till your arms fall off" as the "recipe for finding gold rings", can border on the ridiculous. There comes a point, in some search locations, where it simply becomes not worth your while. There are some places (underneath junky bleachers for instance) where a persons time is better spent going for the silver, and not trying to be a "hero" and look for gold (or nickels, etc...).

Thus if gold rings were someone's objective, then .... you have to question the location, if you're having such horrible junk ratios. The advice to simply "dig junk till your arms fall off" is NOT the recipe for finding gold rings. Lower disc. levels is already a "given". The REAL factor is WHERE you are hunting. Ie.: location. If gold rings is your objective, you've got to pick locations where it's more condusive to jewelry losses, and less junky, to begin with. Namely: swimming beaches. Your ratios are much better there, than junky blighted ghetto parks. And ...... doh .... sand is easier to dig in

 

[Daryn]

Sorry, they are 95% crown caps. The areas around here have a great number of lower socio-economic population and well quite frankly a lot of slobs.
But there is a lot of American history in this area too, so I guess I will just keep digging. Did hit a soccer field area of a local park and in a 3" x 50 yard area there were over a 100 hits. Dug about 20 coins out and fund a pocket spill of a 50 cent piece and 6 quarts with the oldest being only 1971. There must be 1000's of hits in the field.

 

[Treasure_Hunter]

Well, or you can look at it this way too: If you're at a place (turf anyhow) where you would average "100 bottle caps and pulltabs" for each gold ring, then ...... perhaps that's not the best place to be ring hunting .... TO BEGIN WITH. I can think of blighted turf zones where the ratio would be more like 1000 to 1. So the admonition to someone to "lower your disc. and dig tabs and caps till your arms fall off" as the "recipe for finding gold rings", can border on the ridiculous. There comes a point, in some search locations, where it simply becomes not worth your while. There are some places (underneath junky bleachers for instance) where a persons time is better spent going for the silver, and not trying to be a "hero" and look for gold (or nickels, etc...).

Thus if gold rings were someone's objective, then .... you have to question the location, if you're having such horrible junk ratios. The advice to simply "dig junk till your arms fall off" is NOT the recipe for finding gold rings. Lower disc. levels is already a "given". The REAL factor is WHERE you are hunting. Ie.: location. If gold rings is your objective, you've got to pick locations where it's more condusive to jewelry losses, and less junky, to begin with. Namely: swimming beaches. Your ratios are much better there, than junky blighted ghetto parks. And ...... doh .... sand is easier to dig in

True Tom, I am a water hunter, although I do hunt land, I have an ETrac and Sov GT that I use on land....... If I was just hunting gold and finding 100 bottle caps I may move and again I may not. I have dug a lot of bottle caps on land, but I also have fond gold rings on land doing it..............

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Sorry, they are 95% crown caps. The areas around here have a great number of lower socio-economic population and well quite frankly a lot of slobs.
But there is a lot of American history in this area too, so I guess I will just keep digging. Did hit a soccer field area of a local park and in a 3" x 50 yard area there were over a 100 hits. Dug about 20 coins out and fund a pocket spill of a 50 cent piece and 6 quarts with the oldest being only 1971. There must be 1000's of hits in the field.

Daryn, ok, to analyze your post line-by-line:

a) now that you've told us they are crown caps (and not screwcaps) that are bedevilling you, me thinks you're not using your machine right. Most machines can reject those. If it's true that the 350 is letting them come into any of the conductive categories (even after setting it for "bottle cap reject"), then here's the next step to take: Crown caps (ESPECIALLY RUSTY ONES) will have a very tell-tale audio difference when you alter the sweep speed. They tend to "break up" when you momentarily speed up your swing clip over the spot. Contrast to if it's a coin (or some such conductive target), and the signal will not break up with altered/varying swing speeds. Of course this assumes you've got your target centered good (because it can also "break up" if you're not centered over the strongest spot). Once you're getting your signal clearly on each swing, then speed up the speed to a fast little "whip". If it breaks up, then it's likely a crown cap. Practice a little, dig a bunch after comparing audio, and see if this trick works. This trick was VERY pronounced in the early days of motion discriminators (late 1970s/early '80s). However, the swing speed has been slowed way down. Yet the "trick" is still there, to a lesser degree, but can still be used.

If that doesn't work, then I'd say the 350 is a lame machine and time to upgrade. Because on most machines I've used in the last umpteen years, crown-caps are easily learned and passed (if you so choose to be that picky, that is).

b) If you're digging 100 targets, of which 20 turn out to be coins, and the oldest of them is "1971", then ..... I'd say you have a lame spot (unless you're really turned on by clad). I can go out and dig 100 targets, and have every single last one of them be a coin, if I wanted (if I chose to be that selective). Maybe interupted only by a car key, brass washer, or something coin-like. I suppose though, that you are in low disc. (and thus digging every last tab, foil wad, etc.., right? Or were you in high disc?). If so, then are you trying to be a hero and find nickels and/or gold? If so, with ratios like that, I'd say this is not the environment to be a hero like that (unless you just enjoy digging junk).

The "dig all" relic-mindset is for the beach, or relicky sites (old town demolitions, ghost towns, ruins, etc...). But at junky inner city turfed parks, I'd go for the old coins. Oh sure, you can be a hero and try to get gold jewelry, but .... there are parks that your average will be 1000+ before you'll ever get a gold ring. You'd be much better off to cruize all the sand boxes in your town (or find a swimming beach) if gold is your desired goal.

Or if you really must hunt turf in your quest for gold jewelry, here's another idea: turf that is/was used for picnicking is bound to be MUCH more junky, that turf that was/is used for athletics. Because anywhere that people eat, they're going to disgard foil (foil that wrapped their food, candy, etc...) and tabs and caps (from sodas). And with BBQ pits, there'll be molten globs from people who put their cans on the fire, or cooked in foil, etc.... HOWEVER at athletic fields (soccer, etc...) they're not typically used for people cooking food, sitting at picnic tables eating, etc.... AND they are SPECIFICALLY used for physically aggressive "frolicking" motion (athletic) activities. That bodes much better for jewelry coming off and being flung, dis-lodged, etc... Some turf doubles for multiple things, I know. But if you know of turf that's *strictly* for athletics, your jewelry vs junk ratio will be better.

However, still not as good as swimming beaches. Because the very nature of swimming is the most condusive for jewelry losses. Cool waters shrink fingers. People lathering up with slippery suntan lotion. People thrusting their hands into sand which affords a "pulling" motion on their fingers (pulls rings off). People lying prone on the sand (an un-natural position, as opposed to the normal standing position) to sun-bathe. And my favorite: People taking off their jewelry for "safekeeping" before they swim (and hide it in their shoe or something ). And of course: sand is easier to dig in.

 

[Daryn]

Thanks for all the general tip. To anyone ACTUALLY using an Ace 350. Have you tried discriminating crown bottle caps out? If so what objects/coins did you notice that you were not finding anymore?

Just went through the coins that I found in the park and there was a 20's wheat and a 40's nickel in the mix. The park's land is more than a hundred years old so I am gonna just go back out and keep digging. Very few caps and tags in this park. Really expect to start finding buttons as about 90% of the buttons found on this forum were produced in my city.

 

[BadM0nkey]

My 350 usually thinks bottle caps are dimes...

 

[Sapper724]

Daryn, ok, to analyze your post line-by-line:

a) now that you've told us they are crown caps (and not screwcaps) that are bedevilling you, me thinks you're not using your machine right. Most machines can reject those. If it's true that the 350 is letting them come into any of the conductive categories (even after setting it for "bottle cap reject"), then here's the next step to take: Crown caps (ESPECIALLY RUSTY ONES) will have a very tell-tale audio difference when you alter the sweep speed. They tend to "break up" when you momentarily speed up your swing clip over the spot. Contrast to if it's a coin (or some such conductive target), and the signal will not break up with altered/varying swing speeds. Of course this assumes you've got your target centered good (because it can also "break up" if you're not centered over the strongest spot). Once you're getting your signal clearly on each swing, then speed up the speed to a fast little "whip". If it breaks up, then it's likely a crown cap. Practice a little, dig a bunch after comparing audio, and see if this trick works. This trick was VERY pronounced in the early days of motion discriminators (late 1970s/early '80s). However, the swing speed has been slowed way down. Yet the "trick" is still there, to a lesser degree, but can still be used.

If that doesn't work, then I'd say the 350 is a lame machine and time to upgrade. Because on most machines I've used in the last umpteen years, crown-caps are easily learned and passed (if you so choose to be that picky, that is).

b) If you're digging 100 targets, of which 20 turn out to be coins, and the oldest of them is "1971", then ..... I'd say you have a lame spot (unless you're really turned on by clad). I can go out and dig 100 targets, and have every single last one of them be a coin, if I wanted (if I chose to be that selective). Maybe interupted only by a car key, brass washer, or something coin-like. I suppose though, that you are in low disc. (and thus digging every last tab, foil wad, etc.., right? Or were you in high disc?). If so, then are you trying to be a hero and find nickels and/or gold? If so, with ratios like that, I'd say this is not the environment to be a hero like that (unless you just enjoy digging junk).

The "dig all" relic-mindset is for the beach, or relicky sites (old town demolitions, ghost towns, ruins, etc...). But at junky inner city turfed parks, I'd go for the old coins. Oh sure, you can be a hero and try to get gold jewelry, but .... there are parks that your average will be 1000+ before you'll ever get a gold ring. You'd be much better off to cruize all the sand boxes in your town (or find a swimming beach) if gold is your desired goal.

Or if you really must hunt turf in your quest for gold jewelry, here's another idea: turf that is/was used for picnicking is bound to be MUCH more junky, that turf that was/is used for athletics. Because anywhere that people eat, they're going to disgard foil (foil that wrapped their food, candy, etc...) and tabs and caps (from sodas). And with BBQ pits, there'll be molten globs from people who put their cans on the fire, or cooked in foil, etc.... HOWEVER at athletic fields (soccer, etc...) they're not typically used for people cooking food, sitting at picnic tables eating, etc.... AND they are SPECIFICALLY used for physically aggressive "frolicking" motion (athletic) activities. That bodes much better for jewelry coming off and being flung, dis-lodged, etc... Some turf doubles for multiple things, I know. But if you know of turf that's *strictly* for athletics, your jewelry vs junk ratio will be better.

However, still not as good as swimming beaches. Because the very nature of swimming is the most condusive for jewelry losses. Cool waters shrink fingers. People lathering up with slippery suntan lotion. People thrusting their hands into sand which affords a "pulling" motion on their fingers (pulls rings off). People lying prone on the sand (an un-natural position, as opposed to the normal standing position) to sun-bathe. And my favorite: People taking off their jewelry for "safekeeping" before they swim (and hide it in their shoe or something ). And of course: sand is easier to dig in.

This is excellent advice! Thank yoy!

 

[Daryn]

It is all great advice. Nobody needs to get insulted. Geez, come on people we're all adults here. All metal detector brands and individual models are different. So I am of course looking for specific users but I do appreciate all advice. The problem with the Ace are they make the same exact bell one as larger coins.

I have set up a mock testing area to include a wedding band, quarter, fifty cent piece, dollar piece and both types of bottle caps and guess what? They all hit exactly the same at any sensitivity level with the same tone!!! Will set it up again and discriminate out the bottle caps and try again.

 

[dustytrails123]

The 350 sucks ive spend alot of hours using mine the only thing you can do with the bottle caps is sweep your coil back twards you and watch for the vdi to bounce to iron ....but it doesnt work on every cap sometimes they just give the steady quarter/dime hit...i wouldnt do this in old sites you will miss the good targets but in the parks by all meens sweep the coil back and watch for the bouncy iron/quarter dime hits then you can see there bottle caps

 

[Daryn]

The 350 sucks ive spend alot of hours using mine the only thing you can do with the bottle caps is sweep your coil back twards you and watch for the vdi to bounce to iron ....but it doesnt work on every cap sometimes they just give the steady quarter/dime hit...i wouldnt do this in old sites you will miss the good targets but in the parks by all meens sweep the coil back and watch for the bouncy iron/quarter dime hits then you can see there bottle caps

I agree with you. Gonna be upgrading to something different next year. Was going to be the ATPro but tried one out and it has the same inherent Garrett issue with tootle caps. Suggestions on a detector in the $600 range with VDI would be greatly appreciated. Mostly gonna use at parks and forests with the occasional beach use.

 

[fella]

I agree with you. Gonna be upgrading to something different next year. Was going to be the ATPro but tried one out and it has the same inherent Garrett issue with tootle caps. Suggestions on a detector in the $600 range with VDI would be greatly appreciated. Mostly gonna use at parks and forests with the occasional beach use.

Not true.
The AT Pro will give you a wealth of information on bottle caps. Just trying one out won't give you the idea about how well it can do. You need to put the time in.Trust me! AT Pro won't be fooled by the cap. The user interpreting what the machine it telling him/her can be fooled though. There is some really good stuff being discussed here...http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/garrett/356743-patiently-awaiting-new-pro.html
I'm new to the ATP too but after only 20 or so hours on it, it is better on the bottle caps than either of my Whites ($900 & $1200).

 

[Atomic Ed]

I actually think there has been some real good advice here on the subject, in reference to the type of location being the key. Some areas are not worth hunting for gold or nickels but the ACE 350 IMO is a great machine. When I am using mine in a modern park where there are tons of caps and tabs, I quickly learned to determine the majority of the time, which are junk.

As someone else pointed out, the way the signal breaks when sweeping over caps and tabs is definitely different than real coins. Also in addition to that, when you try to pinpoint the cap or tab, it is much harder to get a pinpoint on the 350 with them over real coins. I can guess correct like 99% of the time when I use the breaking sweep tones and the difficult pinpointing, that the target is going to be junk.

All in all I would not hunt trashy modern parks for gold or nickels. If you use the 350 properly then IMO that machine is very hard to beat for the cost.