Discriminate mode usefulness

Centar

Jr. Member
Aug 4, 2013
40
9
Newfoundland Canada
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Teknetics Delta 4000
Teknetics Pinpointer
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I am actually wondering what the use of the discriminate mode on any MD would actually be other than a way to miss a lot of things.

As we all know it is a crap shoot every time we dig, and as much as discriminate mode can SOMETIMES identify a coin it is still a guessing game and worse yet gold rings and coins can ring in as iron!

I read that a lot of people always search in all metal mode because of this and thinking the ONLY features needed on a good detector are:
1. ability to identify type of metal
2. pinpointing ability
3. ground balance adjustment
4. and a depth gage could be useful

Outside of this, coin identifying displays, discrimination adjustments, and notching seem counter productive to have on a MD.

I'd like to see a high quality MD that had the 4 features WITHOUT money wasted selective discrimination features (analog or digital)
And why don't they make em rain proof, not submersible as such but weather proof seeing as they are outside use devices...

Anyone else???
 

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rainyday101

Hero Member
Dec 1, 2012
779
346
Peshtigo, Wisconsin
Detector(s) used
Tesoro Tejon, Tesoro Silver uMax, Tesoro Tiger Shark
Primary Interest:
Metal Detecting
Go hunting in a trashy area of a park and you will answer your own question. Some areas you can't move an inch without hitting trash. It also depends on what you are hunting for. If gold rings are on your agenda hit in all metal or low disc. settings and be prepared to dig lots of junk. If you strictly after coins you can set the disc higher and cherry pick coins. Yep, I know you will miss US nickels, but it beats digging trash all day. If you hunt for silver you can set the disc. past zinc penny and just dig for silver or larger clad. Sooo.... the answer to your question is it depends on what you are hunting for. Different types of targets will require different disc. settings.
 

RotZorn

Sr. Member
Feb 12, 2013
371
124
Munford, TN
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F5,F2,MPX,1T-Pilot
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Depends on where I'm hunting, but I've found that scriming out iron is pretty useful. In my own yard for instance, I got pretty tired of hearing the iron tone from nail after nail-

Best to shut up the low tones for something I actually might want to dig. Makes it a little easier to listen for those good high tones!
 

Tom_in_CA

Gold Member
Mar 23, 2007
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centar, you've got two good answers so far.

I would take issue (or "question") one thing you've said:

"1. ability to identify type of metal ..."

To correct you: NO metal detectors indicates the "type of metal". It only indicates conductivity. And conductivity, unfortunately, has size-of-object factored into it. So when someone says "sounds/looks like aluminum" or "sounds/looks like gold" or "sounds/looks like silver", etc..., all those are mis-nomers. Well, they are RELATIVE to "normally occurring" items we tend to find.

Let me give you an example: Take an aluminum can. Take a pair of tinsnips, and cut out a thumbnail size portion of that can (or simply find a tab or beaver tail, etc...). Wave that thumbnail size piece in an air test. It will read "tab" or whatever (down in the "aluminum" range), right? Ok, NOW take an entire aluminum can and wave it in an air test. You will notice that it reads dime or quarter or whatever (depending on how close you get it to the coil). However, in each test, notice that the composition (type metal) never changed, did it? It's STILL "ALUMINUM". So what changed then? the size. Thus you can see that size plays into it. And no detector lets you "identify type of metal".
 

RotZorn

Sr. Member
Feb 12, 2013
371
124
Munford, TN
Detector(s) used
F5,F2,MPX,1T-Pilot
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I could see making all detectors at least rain proof as you mention, like you said they are outdoor machines?!?!

Anything could happen- sudden rain clouds, sprinkler systems etc could potentially ruin an MD?!?! Not a bad idea- but I'd like to keep the disc option!
 

fella

Bronze Member
Oct 24, 2012
1,805
853
Wisc
Primary Interest:
Metal Detecting
I am actually wondering what the use of the discriminate mode on any MD would actually be other than a way to miss a lot of things.

As we all know it is a crap shoot every time we dig, and as much as discriminate mode can SOMETIMES identify a coin it is still a guessing game and worse yet gold rings and coins can ring in as iron!

I read that a lot of people always search in all metal mode because of this and thinking the ONLY features needed on a good detector are:
1. ability to identify type of metal
2. pinpointing ability
3. ground balance adjustment
4. and a depth gage could be useful

Outside of this, coin identifying displays, discrimination adjustments, and notching seem counter productive to have on a MD.

I'd like to see a high quality MD that had the 4 features WITHOUT money wasted selective discrimination features (analog or digital)
And why don't they make em rain proof, not submersible as such but weather proof seeing as they are outside use devices...

Anyone else???

Go get yourself a PI unit and have fun!
 

U.K. Brian

Bronze Member
Oct 11, 2005
1,629
153
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Primary Interest:
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There's been lots of detectors that are rainproof and will even take a dunk in a stream with little harm unless you push them under and hold them down for some time.

Trouble is it added to initial cost and all further repair costs.

Depth gauge ? Why ? If you think it sounds good you will dig anyway and there's no way they can be accurate because of the varying size of items.
I.D. meters are limited as conductivity (as Tom points out) is all a detector can indicate and conductivity readings change with size/thickness, even orientation in the ground.

Major bad thing with any type of meter (apart from telling you the state of your batteries) is that they can make people lazy so they don't pay enough attention to the audio clues the detector is giving and has moved designer efforts away from developing coils that can better I.D. ferrous without the need for any discriminator control.
 

lededoop5125

Jr. Member
Jul 11, 2013
84
16
North-East Ohio
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My self personally I dig every thing because you really don't know what it will be until you dig it. I mean I have a giant mound of trash but lots of relics from digging those reading
 

Tom_in_CA

Gold Member
Mar 23, 2007
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Salinas, CA
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Go get yourself a PI unit and have fun!

haha, "fella" has a point (and lededoop5125 seems to be supporting it) by saying to get a PI unit and "have fun". Sure, take that beach or nugget PI machine to the nearest urban blighted junky inner city park ....... AND HAVE A BALL! "Dig everything". Afterall, you can't argue with the depth you'll be getting right? And afterall, those pesky discriminators can't tell you exactly what the item is anyhow, right? Afterall, you "wouldn't want to miss a gold ring" now would you?

So go get yourself a pulse machine, head to the nearest blighted park, and have a ball :)
 

rainyday101

Hero Member
Dec 1, 2012
779
346
Peshtigo, Wisconsin
Detector(s) used
Tesoro Tejon, Tesoro Silver uMax, Tesoro Tiger Shark
Primary Interest:
Metal Detecting
Tom In CA summed it up really well- conductivity, conductivity, conductivity. A metal detector is dumb in the sense that it will and can only ID a target by conductivity. A target the right size, shape, and right density can have the same conductivity as a coin. That is just the way it is and is the best they can do. There is no magic in metal detectors and no major improvements have been made in about the last 20 years that have given them a significant advantage. Multi frequency units have been about the biggest advance- BUT they still base target info on conductivity. Fancy digital detectors take the received analog signal, digitize it, and process it based on a microprocessor program to decide what to display on that eye catching fancy screen. A good and skilled detectorist may look at the screen but will decide to dig based on the audio tone. The new digital detectors also produce their tones that you hear based on the processed digital information which amounts to a programmers interpretation based on digitized conductivity signals. This is why I just use the good old analog Tesoro beep and digs. I want to hear what the detector hears and base my digging decision off of that audio and my disc. setting. Don't let the display be your crutch cuz you will be missing good targets!
 

cudamark

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Tom In CA summed it up really well- conductivity, conductivity, conductivity. A metal detector is dumb in the sense that it will and can only ID a target by conductivity. A target the right size, shape, and right density can have the same conductivity as a coin. That is just the way it is and is the best they can do. There is no magic in metal detectors and no major improvements have been made in about the last 20 years that have given them a significant advantage. Multi frequency units have been about the biggest advance- BUT they still base target info on conductivity. Fancy digital detectors take the received analog signal, digitize it, and process it based on a microprocessor program to decide what to display on that eye catching fancy screen. A good and skilled detectorist may look at the screen but will decide to dig based on the audio tone. The new digital detectors also produce their tones that you hear based on the processed digital information which amounts to a programmers interpretation based on digitized conductivity signals. This is why I just use the good old analog Tesoro beep and digs. I want to hear what the detector hears and base my digging decision off of that audio and my disc. setting. Don't let the display be your crutch cuz you will be missing good targets!
The top Minelab's also have a ferrous reading too. That helps a lot in determining if I dig or not. A rusty nail can sound like a good target if it's been underground a while. The ferrous reading sniffs that false conductive reading out. I know lots of people who like to just listen to sounds, that's fine, I like to use all my senses before I make a decision. When I first start using a particular machine, I dig EVERYTHING so I can see how accurate the detector is. Based on that assessment, I know what is good and what is bad for the most part. If it's an "iffy" signal, sure, I dig it. Every now and then I'll dig "bad" sounds just to verify the machine is still telling me the truth. So far, so good, no false negatives.
 

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Centar

Jr. Member
Aug 4, 2013
40
9
Newfoundland Canada
Detector(s) used
Teknetics Delta 4000
Teknetics Pinpointer
Primary Interest:
All Treasure Hunting
centar, you've got two good answers so far.

I would take issue (or "question") one thing you've said:

"1. ability to identify type of metal ..."

To correct you: NO metal detectors indicates the "type of metal". It only indicates conductivity. And conductivity, unfortunately, has size-of-object factored into it. So when someone says "sounds/looks like aluminum" or "sounds/looks like gold" or "sounds/looks like silver", etc..., all those are mis-nomers. Well, they are RELATIVE to "normally occurring" items we tend to find.

Let me give you an example: Take an aluminum can. Take a pair of tinsnips, and cut out a thumbnail size portion of that can (or simply find a tab or beaver tail, etc...). Wave that thumbnail size piece in an air test. It will read "tab" or whatever (down in the "aluminum" range), right? Ok, NOW take an entire aluminum can and wave it in an air test. You will notice that it reads dime or quarter or whatever (depending on how close you get it to the coil). However, in each test, notice that the composition (type metal) never changed, did it? It's STILL "ALUMINUM". So what changed then? the size. Thus you can see that size plays into it. And no detector lets you "identify type of metal".

What I should have said is ferrous or non-ferrous metal, not type....and that should keep you from digging a lot of nails...and the aluminum can test (yes I have experienced it) verifies my dought of the usefulness of the discrimination...

I think the PI detectors can't do ferrous/non-ferrous....

And to add one more to the list of useful things>>
5. Battery gauge.

Outside of ferrous/non-ferrous discrimination I can't see the usefulness of VDI displays (yes my MD has one), target IDs, and notching....maybe for the extra bells and whistles on a $1000 machine but not on a $300 MD...

what would be really useful I think is a MD that made a tone for detected metal continually (like in pinpoint mode) and its volume indicated the depth/size and the frequency of the tone indicated the ferrous/non-ferrous signal...then the pinpoint button could just reduce the sensitivity for actual pinpointing. No need for a display besides battery level and settings....

Now if they could just coat/spray them with that new poly coating the new water resistant cellular phones are using, it would be awesome!
 

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fella

Bronze Member
Oct 24, 2012
1,805
853
Wisc
Primary Interest:
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Soooo now you want discrimination? Separating ferrous/non-ferrous IS discrimination! Dunno how useful that could be! :rolleyes:
 

RobRieman

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Nov 12, 2012
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Cincinnati Ohio
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You guys have got to be kidding about a beep and dig anywhere but a beach. I would love to hunt with someone in a park, school, fair grounds, or even a tear down with a beep and dig that digs everything. You would still be 10 feet from the car door you drove to the site in when your too broken down to even bend over to dig another hole. A screen and a shovel would be more efficient in any trashy area that had history of thousands of visitors over the years.
 

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Centar

Jr. Member
Aug 4, 2013
40
9
Newfoundland Canada
Detector(s) used
Teknetics Delta 4000
Teknetics Pinpointer
Primary Interest:
All Treasure Hunting
You guys have got to be kidding about a beep and dig anywhere but a beach. I would love to hunt with someone in a park, school, fair grounds, or even a tear down with a beep and dig that digs everything. You would still be 10 feet from the car door you drove to the site in when your too broken down to even bend over to dig another hole. A screen and a shovel would be more efficient in any trashy area that had history of thousands of visitors over the years.

That is actually not a bad idea...when finding an area that has many targets, dig it and screen it...would definatly increase your chances of anything good and save a lot of time...hmmmm just needs a small portable fold up screen thingy now.......
 

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Centar

Jr. Member
Aug 4, 2013
40
9
Newfoundland Canada
Detector(s) used
Teknetics Delta 4000
Teknetics Pinpointer
Primary Interest:
All Treasure Hunting
Soooo now you want discrimination? Separating ferrous/non-ferrous IS discrimination! Dunno how useful that could be! :rolleyes:

Well I want to be the discriminator not the MD....
 

rainyday101

Hero Member
Dec 1, 2012
779
346
Peshtigo, Wisconsin
Detector(s) used
Tesoro Tejon, Tesoro Silver uMax, Tesoro Tiger Shark
Primary Interest:
Metal Detecting
You guys have got to be kidding about a beep and dig anywhere but a beach. I would love to hunt with someone in a park, school, fair grounds, or even a tear down with a beep and dig that digs everything. You would still be 10 feet from the car door you drove to the site in when your too broken down to even bend over to dig another hole. A screen and a shovel would be more efficient in any trashy area that had history of thousands of visitors over the years.

Rob, I had my beep and dig Silver Umax out at a park today and dug 28 coins in two hours, two of which were wheaties at about 5 inches. I only dug two trash targets. With the disc set just past pulltab you are cherry picking and eliminate most trash. The trash targets I started to dig and left were large metal targets. I should have known better and not even dug because they pin pointed over too large of an area. Your argument makes sense if you were to turn the disc. all the way down, but because of the reasons you stated above that is why I keep the disc. up. You will beat me on nickels, but otherwise I think I could give you a run for money with a $250 beep and dig.
 

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RobRieman

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Nov 12, 2012
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Rob, I had my beep and dig Silver Umax out at a park today and dug 28 coins in two hours, two of which were wheaties at about 5 inches. I only dug two trash targets. With the disc set just past pulltab you are cherry picking and eliminate most trash. The trash targets I started to dig and left were large metal targets. I should have known better and not even dug because they pin pointed over too large of an area. Your argument makes sense if you were to turn the disc. all the way down, but because of the reasons you stated above that is why I keep the disc. up. You will beat me on nickels, but otherwise I think I could give you a run for money with a $250 beep and dig.

Hi Rainyday, I have nothing against beep and digs, I used a few myself. What I cannot grasp is the people saying dig everything because you can't trust what your machine is telling you. I can't tell what it is but I can sure narrow it down to its composition, size and depth somewhat with the "bells and whistles" people say are a joke on a detector. I don't disc out anything when I hunt, I can tell by the null and the display that the iron is there but I myself don't dig every piece to see what it is because I would never cover any ground. If that's the way they like to hunt that's great, but to say its a waste of money seems odd. The bells and whistles add value to a detector for me, another tool to use to help identify the object.
I pulled this out of a school this morning in one hour. A chunky 925 ring, an Andrew Jackson $1 coin, a pocket of clad and a few toys. I dig the tabs and slaw that hit in the gold range most times also. Found a nice 10 diamond gold man's wedding ring 2 weeks ago.
rr.JPG
 

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