UPDATE: cache of gold coins with an Explorer & GPX4000

[bakergeol]

UPDATE: cache of gold coins with an Explorer & GPX4000

I did not know where to put this.

I saw this on another forum and was impressed. Nice gold coin finds with an Explorer.


http://www.findmall.com/read.php?27,489521,489521#msg-489521

http://www.findmall.com/read.php?27,489521,491788#msg-491788

Doing a little math - probably $60000 in coins in the picture.
George

 

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[gollum]

Re: UPDATE: cache of gold coins with an Explorer & GPX4000

Even if found on private property, with the owner's permission. If you found something like that, Uncle Sam would swoop in and snatch it up, claiming it for the public good. I guarantee it!

You guarantee it...how?

Rather than endless "what if's" and probabilities of how "Uncle Sam will swoop in and snatch it up"...how about posting some laws, state statues or something with some sort of legal significances to it.

That, and your make-believe-expence-chart is way off

First,

My "make-believe-expence-chart" is a LOW average. Depending on how far from home you are, incidental expences, hiring of local contractors to do any work, and since your experience seems to be more in water than on dry land, you need to know about a little thing called a "reclamation bond" you have to pay to the state or federal agency that administers the land your Treasure Trove is buried in (BLM, Dept. of Agriculture, US Forest Service, etc). The reclamation bond is usually between $2500 and $15000 depending on how much earth you will have to turn up, and how heavy the equipment you be using is. This is a "bond" that insures you will replant grass, bushes, and trees. Refill whatever holes you dug, and bring the area back to the same state it was in before you started digging. And may I add, that whatever reclamation you do will not be sufficient to get your bond back (add that into my "make-believe-expence-chart").

See SWR, I have a good bit of experience with this subject, as well as knowing someone who has been through the wringer trying to keep his find legal, SINCE 1986! His name is Gary Oliver, and he has had claim on the place SouthWest of Tucson where the Jesuits of the Tumacacori Mission had a Gold/Silver Mine named "Virgen de Guadalupe". When the expulsion happened in 1767, they exploded a cliff down on top of the mines entrance (after backfilling it with ash from the smelter, and surface soil). I forgot to add that supposedly before doing this, they hid several hundred bars of both silver and gold inside.

It has happened in the past.

Let's use Arizona as an example. There is such a thing as the Arizona State Antiquities Act. It basically states that any object found in the state that is in excess of 100 years old, is deemed "of historical significance", and therefore becomes property of the state. Don't believe me?

In 1964, when the SEC was investigating a company called MOEL, Inc (Mining, Oil, Exploration, and Leasing), they learned that Clarence O. Mitchell had possession of four stones said to have been found in Arizona in 1949, that were engraved with maps to a fabulous treasure. While the investigation was still ongoing, they confiscated the stones from Mitchell to have them tested to see whether they could ascertain their age to be older than 100 years. Since the stones contained no organic matter, it was impossible to "LEGALLY" find their exact age. If there would have been something dateable in the stones, that would have placed their age in excess of 100 years old, they would have been declared property of the State of Arizona. Tests performed at ASU came back as inconclusive. A previous test performed at Redlands University, by Professor Stephen Dana (Head of the Geology Dept.) declared that "in his opinion" the stones were "at least 100 years old". So, because the ASU tests were inconclusive, and Professor Dana's Testing only came back with his "opinion", the state could not legally keep the stones. They were returned to Clarence Mitchell. You have most likely heard about these stones. They are commonly called "The Peralta Stones" or "The Stone Maps".

So, I hope that about covers anything you might want to know about land based treasure hunting. If you have any other questions, or want to know more about Tumacacori, just let me know.

Best,

Mike

THIS IS WHAT IT'S ALL ABOUT:

 

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[treasurejack]

Re: UPDATE: cache of gold coins with an Explorer & GPX4000

Even if found on private property, with the owner's permission. If you found something like that, Uncle Sam would swoop in and snatch it up, claiming it for the public good. I guarantee it!

You guarantee it...how?

Rather than endless "what if's" and probabilities of how "Uncle Sam will swoop in and snatch it up"...how about posting some laws, state statues or something with some sort of legal significances to it.

That, and your make-believe-expence-chart is way off

First,

My "make-believe-expence-chart" is a LOW average. Depending on how far from home you are, incidental expences, hiring of local contractors to do any work, and since your experience seems to be more in water than on dry land, you need to know about a little thing called a "reclamation bond" you have to pay to the state or federal agency that administers the land your Treasure Trove is buried in (BLM, Dept. of Agriculture, US Forest Service, etc). The reclamation bond is usually between $2500 and $15000 depending on how much earth you will have to turn up, and how heavy the equipment you be using is. This is a "bond" that insures you will replant grass, bushes, and trees. Refill whatever holes you dug, and bring the area back to the same state it was in before you started digging. And may I add, that whatever reclamation you do will not be sufficient to get your bond back (add that into my "make-believe-expence-chart").

See SWR, I have a good bit of experience with this subject, as well as knowing someone who has been through the wringer trying to keep his find legal, SINCE 1986! His name is Gary Oliver, and he has had claim on the place SouthWest of Tucson where the Jesuits of the Tumacacori Mission had a Gold/Silver Mine named "Virgen de Guadalupe". When the expulsion happened in 1767, they exploded a cliff down on top of the mines entrance (after backfilling it with ash from the smelter, and surface soil). I forgot to add that supposedly before doing this, they hid several hundred bars of both silver and gold inside.

It has happened in the past.

Let's use Arizona as an example. There is such a thing as the Arizona State Antiquities Act. It basically states that any object found in the state that is in excess of 100 years old, is deemed "of historical significance", and therefore becomes property of the state. Don't believe me?

In 1964, when the SEC was investigating a company called MOEL, Inc (Mining, Oil, Exploration, and Leasing), they learned that Clarence O. Mitchell had possession of four stones said to have been found in Arizona in 1949, that were engraved with maps to a fabulous treasure. While the investigation was still ongoing, they confiscated the stones from Mitchell to have them tested to see whether they could ascertain their age to be older than 100 years. Since the stones contained no organic matter, it was impossible to "LEGALLY" find their exact age. If there would have been something dateable in the stones, that would have placed their age in excess of 100 years old, they would have been declared property of the State of Arizona. Tests performed at ASU came back as inconclusive. A previous test performed at Redlands University, by Professor Stephen Dana (Head of the Geology Dept.) declared that "in his opinion" the stones were "at least 100 years old". So, because the ASU tests were inconclusive, and Professor Dana's Testing only came back with his "opinion", the state could not legally keep the stones. They were returned to Clarence Mitchell. You have most likely heard about these stones. They are commonly called "The Peralta Stones" or "The Stone Maps".

So, I hope that about covers anything you might want to know about land based treasure hunting. If you have any other questions, or want to know more about Tumacacori, just let me know.

Best,

Mike

THIS IS WHAT IT'S ALL ABOUT:

Folks, it's like this, in the past few weeks I have spoken personally to the many different agencies that reside over the very laws you're talking about, and the truth is this:

Private land or not, if it is deemed an "antiquity" it belongs to the residing governing body......"Period!" Basically, in most cases they're all too happy to allow you to go look for it, but once it is found........"prepare for a very costly court battle" if you want to try to keep it, or perhaps even stay out of jail. The case that was pointed out to me involved a man in Ohio who had permission from the landowner to hunt on that property. As it turned out he eventually came upon a small cave that was full of "artifacts" dating several hundred years back, they were mud-stone pendants, I believe. The guy started gathering them up and he eventually sold some of them. Before it was over the man was arrested and the landowner was fined, but even more incredibly, even the land owner was barred from stepping foot on that portion of his property until the residing governing bodies had concluded their work. As was just mentioned in the quote above, if you think you're going to find one of these lost mines or missions and reap big profits, think again.......even if it's found on private property. Make the calls, check it out for yourself. I did.

 

[bakergeol]

Re: UPDATE: cache of gold coins with an Explorer & GPX4000

George…sorry to have hijacked your thread.

Instead of debating about how Uncle Sam (Government) will swoop in and take everything you find (rolls eyes), such as fantasy Jesuit mines and phony stone maps…I’ll say nice gold coins found with that Explorer.

Actually SWR- most threads do wander off in different directions but I actually support this. It just makes for more interesting reading and posting.

George

 

[treasurejack]

Re: UPDATE: cache of gold coins with an Explorer & GPX4000

Folks, it's like this, in the past few weeks I have spoken personally to the many different agencies that reside over the very laws you're talking about, and the truth is this

I seriously doubt you have talked to every municipality in the US about these laws.

The case that was pointed out to me involved a man in Ohio who had permission from the landowner to hunt on that property. As it turned out he eventually came upon a small cave that was full of "artifacts" dating several hundred years back, they were mud-stone pendants, I believe. The guy started gathering them up and he eventually sold some of them. Before it was over the man was arrested and the landowner was fined, but even more incredibly, even the land owner was barred from stepping foot on that portion of his property until the residing governing bodies had concluded their work.

Is there an actual case history/number/name associated with this event? Alternatively, could this be one of those “heard it from a friend, who heard it from a friend” kind of references?

...if you think you're going to find one of these lost mines or missions and reap big profits, think again.......even if it's found on private property.

I agree, as until proven otherwise, they are but myths…treasure lore (fantasies).

Learn to deal in deal in facts, not fantasy. I said, "Many different agencies," not "every agency."

"yes," there is a case number, and several references to the case, if "you're" willing to look for it.

I posted what I have learned in recent weeks, believing it or not it's up yo you?

When in doubt, and to save all the arguing & uncertainty & stone throwing, "simply check it out for yourself." Then you'll have all the information first hand.

 

[gollum]

Re: UPDATE: cache of gold coins with an Explorer & GPX4000

I agree with SWR on one thing: Sorry George for hijacking the thread.

SWR seems to either not have believed, or glossed over my post. That's too bad. If you had more experience with land based treasure hunting, you would know what I say is true.

I won't go into it any more on this thread, other than to say SWR needs to look a little more closely at Federal Treasure Trove Laws, and the Land Treasure Hunting work of others before PooPooing what more experienced people have to say on the subject.

Best,

Mike

 

[Kas]

Re: UPDATE: cache of gold coins with an Explorer & GPX4000

Whatever agency it was, they'd never know I found it. No one else would either.

Glen Carson told me one time. Don't display your finds, and don't tell anyone what you've found.

People steal. The government is no different.

They already steal money from us. Hell, most of us won't get any retirement because it'll be spent for other stuff. If that isn't stealing I don't know what is. Heck with telling anything.

 

[U.K. Brian]

Re: UPDATE: cache of gold coins with an Explorer & GPX4000

Highest rate of tax in the U.K. is 40% but coin/treasure finds are exempt so the finder gets the whole of the treasure trove valuation....which sounds fine but I find I can normally get an offer of 50-100 % more from a dealer than the state decides is the value.

 

[Hill City Rebel]

Re: UPDATE: cache of gold coins with an Explorer & GPX4000

For those of us in the USA, it's "dig the stuff and keep your mouth shut." That's the only way to prevent the government or others from stealing it from us.

 

[lucky1777]

Re: UPDATE: cache of gold coins with an Explorer & GPX4000

For those of us in the USA, it's "dig the stuff and keep your mouth shut." That's the only way to prevent the government or others from stealing it from us.

I suppose that if you walk into a 7-11, pull a gun out, and rob them, it is the Government that puts you in jail, eh?

Did you research the laws yet

 

[Hill City Rebel]

Re: UPDATE: cache of gold coins with an Explorer & GPX4000

For those of us in the USA, it's "dig the stuff and keep your mouth shut." That's the only way to prevent the government or others from stealing it from us.

I suppose that if you walk into a 7-11, pull a gun out, and rob them, it is the Government that puts you in jail, eh?

Did you research the laws yet

In simplified terms, as I understand the laws, and except for certain Native American artifacts, the dug items belong to the property owner. If you make a deal with the property owner to keep your digs, then they're yours. As long as you don't sell the items, the government isn't involved. If you do sell them, the government wants to tax the gain. The comment about the 7-11 store isn't relevant.

 

[Hill City Rebel]

Re: UPDATE: cache of gold coins with an Explorer & GPX4000

For those of us in the USA, it's "dig the stuff and keep your mouth shut." That's the only way to prevent the government or others from stealing it from us.

I suppose that if you walk into a 7-11, pull a gun out, and rob them, it is the Government that puts you in jail, eh?

Did you research the laws yet

In simplified terms, as I understand the laws, and except for certain Native American artifacts, the dug items belong to the property owner. If you make a deal with the property owner to keep your digs, then they're yours. As long as you don't sell the items, the government isn't involved. If you do sell them, the government wants to tax the gain. The comment about the 7-11 store isn't relevant.

That's a mighty big change from "That's the only way to prevent the government or others from stealing it from us." Paying taxes on gains (income) is not stealing, tax evasion is. The comment about the 7-11 only shows it's not the Governments fault if you break the law.

Gulp... You're IRS, aren't you?

 

[Dave45]

Re: UPDATE: cache of gold coins with an Explorer & GPX4000

lol