The Dangers of eLawyers; Do Not Take Complex THing Legal Advice From Forums

LM

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The Dangers of eLawyers; Do Not Take Complex TH'ing Legal Advice From Forums

Last year, famous movie actor Wesley Snipes was released from a Federal Prison Camp having served time for income tax evasion. Mr. Snipes, like many others, fell prey to the incredible dangers of specious legal narratives about 'no legal obligation to pay taxes' put out by imbecilic legal theorists that might sound plausible enough to someone who has no real idea about the law, but in fact offers you no actual legal protection and can get you in hot water; in his case, actual prison.

A amusing shorthand for the the "Janitor By Day, Interpreter Of Complex Statutes On The Internet By Night" phenomenon we see so commonly n internet forums is "eLawyer". This is someone who has zero understanding of how laws work, zero understanding of how the legal system works but thinks that if he can dream up some left-field narrative in his mind that relates to some random statute he vaguely understands and express it on the internet, that will insulate him from the consequences of his actions.

I bring this up because in a recent thread, we saw eLawyers were giving advice on 'trespassing' that was just abysmal and could get someone in trouble.

Whenever you are on the internet and encounter someone presenting a theory or interpretation of a statute, ask them these two things.

1) Are you an attorney or do you have any legal background?
2) Can you cite me a real world case where your interpretation of the statute was proffered in a courtroom setting and succeeded?

If the answer to either of those questions is "no", you can safely discard any advice they presume to give as being the worthless machinations of an eLawyer and NOT actionable in your own life.

But can eLawyers really get me in trouble even if actual court cases are vague or non-existent?

Sadly, yes. An example we saw in the past decade was with the common narrative that it is OK for persons convicted of a felony to posses black powder firearms in most states, simply because they were exempted at the Federal level. This belief was so standard among eLawyers that it became a totally reliable part of any internet gun forum narrative, when someone asked if it was legal for their brother with some Felony conviction to posses a black powder rifle to go hunting. A few people with legal backgrounds warned that this was a gray area and to tread very, very lightly but were shouted down by hordes of eLawyers with the logic that if the ATF didn't require background checks on them, then they were not firearms thus not eligible for those controls.

Sure enough, eventually, a few 'Felon in Possession of a Firearm' cases were made at the state level on the basis of black powder firearms. One in Wyoming, another in Florida. Both were upheld (one since struck down). Two men got in very real world trouble in spite of the fact that to this day, every single eLawyer on every gun forum will tell you that its perfectly legal.

The point I am making here is this.
When you want to know whether or not its legally OK to go MD that old 'abandoned' home, understand that your question is very distinct from 'is it likely that I will get in trouble if I go MD that old abandoned home since nobody seems to care about it'. Its entirely possible for me to grow marijuana in my back yard for 30 years and nobody will ever notice... You are asking if its *legal* and generally speaking, the answer is, if you don't have permission, no. It is not legal.

All property is owned by someone. If it is not held for common use by the government for the use of the citizens, that means it is owned by another citizen and you have NO RIGHT to bring your metal detector on it and start digging.

The reason I make this post is as a land owner who has to constantly fend off imbeciles in various guises who think that its OK to ignore my No Trespassing signs and use my property for their own intents. That 'field' belongs to someone. That 'old house' belongs to someone. Even if its a bank or an institution, the point is, IT IS NOT YOURS TO DO WITH AS YOU PLEASE.
 

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Jim in Idaho

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My old man had a good saying about that. He always told we kids "if it isn't yours, don't touch it".
Jim
 

Tom_in_CA

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LM, As you know, there's no shortage of threads on forums, where the legal/access aspects of our hobby come up. And when they do, persons input (yourself included I suppose). That's the purpose of an-open forum afterall, right? Are all those persons who chime in "eLawyers and thus .... of necessity ... wrong ? No, of course not. Some of them can be correct. I don't think anyone reads any thread on the subject, and is so gullible as to not put it through his own scrutiny. He KNOWS that he's merely reading other's opinions, and will filter it accordingly. He knows he's not reading stuff lawyers wrote.

As far as your point #2, you have to keep in mind, that sometimes when someone will say something like "go for it", that they're not necessarily saying that your point # 2 will carry-the-day. I mean, go figure, legal court-room history is probably FILLED with cases where someone "had the book thrown at him" for something like a tail-light out, or stepping off the sidewalk, or jay-walking, etc.... So when you ask for "technical worst case scenarios of .... defensible at the worst-possible scrutiny of what some judge might decide", is often not the real world scenario. For example: If you were to ask a real lawyer and judge: "Can I jaywalk? " They would tell you no. And they can probably even cite you the chapter and verse, recite the fine, and list case-examples of court-cases of violators getting jailed for that. But seriously now, if you go out to the front of your house right now and jay-walk, the REAL question is not a legal one in the slightest (because, yes, it's illegal, blah blah). The REAL question is the "did anyone really care" question. Nothing will happen to you, unless you were being obnoxious, caused an accident, etc....
 

ecoast

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I bring this up because in a recent thread, we saw eLawyers were giving advice on 'trespassing' that was just abysmal and could get someone in trouble.



There's a difference between trolls and eLawyers, fwiw
 

Nugs Bunny

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E- layers online are Street Lawyers in person, the types who challenge the police for fun. I have always known these types as Sea Lawyers... (An old navy term, when at sea a sailor is a law expert, but in reality, they know nothing.)

Even lawyers can interpret the law wrong or fail to find a case to cite, I think it doesn't matter who one is, as long as they cite the law and not mere opinion. Or for God's sake Wikipedia lol.

The net if full of Wiki Experts that can debunk and discredit everything from the Moon Landing to current political agendas, it's right there on Wiki ya know! :laughing7:

Never argue with a stupid person, they will drag you down to their level and beat one with experience every time!

Arguing with internet experts is like playing chess with a pigeon, no matter how good one is at chess, the pigeon is just going to knock all the pieces over, crap on the board, and strut around as though he is victorious! :laughing7: :laughing7: :laughing7:
 

Phantasman

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I try to use "common sense" where I detect. But, of course, who ever said laws were developed using common sense?
 

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Tnmountains

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I always say in my opinion if its a sticky question on property city,state or federal. Had a fiend in Ga or maybe it's Tn he picked up a felony as a young kid and hunts black powder now 40 years later. I think every state is different with Federal law trumping state? Sad and slippery slope to be sure. I am not familiar with e-lawyers.But agree you need good educated advice.
 

metalhealth

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i would think anyone with any common sense at all would know not to seek legal advice on an internet forum. even if you were to find out first if the person giving legal advice is an attorney i think its a terrible idea. anyone who would has probably already ran into trouble or has it coming. as to the recent thread and many others, it started out by asking OPINIONS and turned into courtroom drama. people forget that it is ok to offer an OPINION without it having to be set in stone legal advice. many times people without experience just want to know of others experiences to help them decide what they are comfortable doing. for instance "has anyone taken a metal detector to mexico beaches" ?, etc. for me i would take that as others have done it and im comfortable enough with it to do it. others may not be. but its good to get fellow hobbyists feedback. as tom says, something that may be technically illegal may be rarely enforced. our hobby has some unique grey areas and it just comes down to what an individual is comfortable with. i look at it like speeding. some people are willing to push farther than others. some are only willing to follow the letter of the law. some are willing to do what they want and accept the consequences. its up to the individual ultimately but its always nice to hear of others experiences to help make your decision...
 

Lady Pirate

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:dontknow: :dontknow: "Is the glass half full or half empty" :laughing7::laughing7: Myself.....I'm just gonna live life to the fullest.....
 

Nugs Bunny

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:dontknow: :dontknow: "Is the glass half full or half empty" :laughing7::laughing7: Myself.....I'm just gonna live life to the fullest.....


The glass is neither half full or half empty... its simply the wrong size!

I'm learning life is about the proper perspective... or I'm just getting old! :laughing7:
 

Nugs Bunny

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Wrong_internet.png
 

Msbeepbeep

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There's a lot of gray areas in life, just avoid the spot lights, and treat people fairly.

This reminds me of a commercial "...the Internet is never wrong." ...."where did you hear that?"..."The Internet."
 

deadeye 22250

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What harm is there in asking for permission, to detect, hunt or walk on someones property ? There is nothing wrong in asking for permission !!!!
The thought of looking without permission is wrong. In my eyes detecting without permission, is what a thief would do.
 

jeff of pa

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Common Sense is all I need
 

Nugs Bunny

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Good points. If it is the thread I am thinking of I don't think the OP said whether or not he had permission or whether or not he dug or retrieved anything from the property in question. Maybe the eLawyers missed that. They could find that out by looking it up or by asking. I would suggest the former as I think it would be like asking someone if they stole their detector.


I am 99% sure this thread is about your advice and you're the "E-Lawyer" being referenced. "in a recent thread, we saw eLawyers were giving advice on 'trespassing' that was just abysmal"


This is someone who has zero understanding of how laws work, zero understanding of how the legal system works but thinks that if he can dream up some left-field narrative in his mind that relates to some random statute he vaguely understands and express it on the internet, that will insulate him from the consequences of his actions.

I bring this up because in a recent thread, we saw eLawyers were giving advice on 'trespassing' that was just abysmal and could get someone in trouble.

Whenever you are on the internet and encounter someone presenting a theory or interpretation of a statute, ask them these two things.

1) Are you an attorney or do you have any legal background?
2) Can you cite me a real world case where your interpretation of the statute was proffered in a courtroom setting and succeeded?

If the answer to either of those questions is "no", you can safely discard any advice they presume to give as being the worthless machinations of an eLawyer and NOT actionable in your own life.

The point I am making here is this.
When you want to know whether or not its legally OK to go MD that old 'abandoned' home, understand that your question is very distinct from 'is it likely that I will get in trouble if I go MD that old abandoned home since nobody seems to care about it'. Its entirely possible for me to grow marijuana in my back yard for 30 years and nobody will ever notice... You are asking if its *legal* and generally speaking, the answer is, if you don't have permission, no. It is not legal.

The reason I make this post is as a land owner who has to constantly fend off imbeciles in various guises who think that its OK to ignore my No Trespassing signs and use my property for their own intents. That 'field' belongs to someone. That 'old house' belongs to someone. Even if its a bank or an institution, the point is, IT IS NOT YOURS TO DO WITH AS YOU PLEASE.



"in a recent thread"... http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/treasure-hunting-legal-issues/443425-detecting-hud-properties.html


"When you are dead, you don't know that you are dead. It is difficult only for the others... It is the same when you are stupid." ~ Philippe Geluck. :laughing7: :laughing7: :laughing7:
 

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metalhealth

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Good points. If it is the thread I am thinking of I don't think the OP said whether or not he had permission or whether or not he dug or retrieved anything from the property in question. Maybe the eLawyers missed that. They could find that out by looking it up or by asking. I would suggest the former as I think it would be like asking someone if they stole their detector.

Also a good demonstration of why all the elawyering is so rediculous. A bona fide lawyer probably couldn't even say what's legal. People just need to remember they're giving and receiving OPINIONS.
 

metalhealth

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I think you make good points and I highlighted what I feel is the most important. As for the discussions being ridiculous I think that is a good point too ,but I think that is mostly because some try to stop discussion and go into attack mode on the people that are wanting to discuss the issues. I don't think we should encourage anyone to do something illegal but I don't think that discouraging someone from discussing issues does anybody good. I'm thinking about starting a thread on how I think someone might legally detect a state park where there is restriction on removing vintage items and may be able to legally acquire those items under the right circumstances. I don't know how much time would be spent on discussion of legal issues compared to the amount of time spent on moral issues but it could be beneficial.

Thanks. And just to be clear I don't find the discussion or any ponderings or questions of opinion rediculous. Just the pointless arguing about legal minutia that could only probably really be set as fact in a court. Discussion is always good. You're right people are quick to be defensive and the original idea often gets lost in the I said he said you said the law says. Good luck on the thread. That would be a difficult discussion to keep on track online.
 

Tom_in_CA

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.... someone might legally detect a state park where there is restriction on removing vintage items and may be able to legally acquire those items under the right circumstances......

Kemper, I know it's fun to dissect laws to find out and see how md'rs are worrying themselves too silly for. To show that ....... we CAN IN FACT detect at various XYZ places. And so that the chicken-little crowd need not worry, etc... However, you have to admit, that there does come a point where we also have to admit, that if you sleuth deeply enough, you probably can find things that will forbid you from "removing vintage items". And sure, we can debate how they might not apply to us, etc...

But how about this instead: On some "fronts", we can just go ahead and grant that certain activities in detecting ("digging", "removing", etc...) could in fact apply. Ok, so what ? :) Then in those situations, rather than defend that front to the hilt, we just say: "Sure. But does anyone really care ?" Sometimes THAT should be the test, not technical boiler plate laws, codes, etc.... If there's a place where you or I can detect till we're blue in the face, with nothing more than a friendly wave from passing rangers, then ........ can't THAT be our "ok" to proceed ? :)
 

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