permission

[crssedup]

I'm new to this cool hobby. Who if any should I ask to search school yards.

 

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[cudamark]

Tell me that was a joke Charlie P That is the worst comparison I've seen. If you were talking about police cars and courtrooms where officials would routinely let people drill hoes in them ,then maybe you would be on the same planet of remarks.

I agree, drilling holes in cars or buildings would be considered destruction, making a hole in the ground is not as it's self healing.

 

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[kayakpat]

Nugs is right your tresspassing, and can be arrested. Today all property is owned by someone or some entity maybe business, a person, or government or some authority and subject to their their rules and regulation, You may think it is no mans land or any mans land and you would be wrong, you are either a guest or tresspasser. With more and more people property owners today are restricting more and more because of tresspass, if you don't own it you have no rights to it. You might be lucky and the owner does not care right now, the more people cause problems the faster you will see active enforcement of no tresspass. The right of private property is paramount in the USA, as it is the heart of capitalism.

 

[Carolina Tom]

We hunt them around here. Do not go when the students are there. Don't take a shovel. Dig nice plugs. Dress nicely. Use your head.

The sports fields are almost always posted. This is to keep "those" people from playing soccer on them. Whole teams show up around here and wear out the fields, so when the coach arrives on Monday AM... he is furious. This is what the cops told us... those signs allow us to arrest vagrant drunks and run off the soccer posse.

 

[Nugs Bunny]

I'll accept this as fact. And it may be true of other states to (CA too for all I know). And that therefore un-authorized entry to a school's grass there, is therefore "trespassing" (if you asked enough lawyers and real estate experts). Ok. Fine. Sure. Granted. And now I say "so what?" Because the real issue is: who cares? If others in the community can use the monkey bars after hours, fly a kite, etc..... and no one cares less, then ..... ok, so what ?

And we're still waiting for you to give any examples of any md'r who has "gone to jail" for md'ing a routine innocuous school yard.

Now just for the record: We're talking routine school yards where ...... yes, they may have a fence, but typically have a permanently propped open gate (with the obligatory signs to the effect of "visitors check in at the office" type stuff). We're not talking those that are truly buttoned up like Ft. Knox, barb-wire, padlocked gates, that no one ever goes to after school hours for ANY purpose.

The answer is simple Tom... nobody gets arrested for metal detecting because it's not a violation of the criminal code.

They get arrested for TRESPASSING... it doesn't matter if one is detecting or bird watching...

Can I provide examples of trespass on school property? Sure can... by the hundreds... take your pick!

Three teens arrested after trespassing at Fair Park High School - ArkLatexHomepage.com
Ex-Dracut teacher arrested for trespassing at school - 7News Boston WHDH-TV
5 teens arrested for trespassing at Hampton High | WAVY-TV
Two men arrested for criminal trespass on Tascosa High School pr - KFDA - NewsChannel 10 / Amarillo News, Weather, Sports
Woman Arrested for Trespassing on School Property - WSET.com - ABC13
Man arrested for trespassing at Bend High;
Home School student arrested for trespassing on public school property - Avvo.com
Teenager arrested for trespassing on school property - WAFF-TV: News, Weather and Sports for Huntsville, AL

Two that stand out from the few I posted...

HUNTSVILLE, AL (WAFF) - Huntsville police arrested a teenager who allegedly entered a school early Tuesday morning.
According to police, security at the Academy for Academics and Arts on Poplar Avenue saw the teen on a security camera and called the authorities. The police arrested the teenage boy. Since nothing was stolen or damaged, he will most likely face criminal trespassing charges instead of a burglary charge.

A man with a metal rod was arrested for allegedly trespassing on Bend High School property Friday morning.
According to police, Beaver was confronted by police at 9:56 a.m. on the campus of Bend High School and told to leave the area.
“He wasn’t an immediate threat to the students,” said Bend Police Lt. Paul Kansky. “But there’s always a concern for safety when considering kids at school.”
Officers determined Beaver had no legitimate reason for being on the campus and told him if he returned he would be trespassing.

I have been hitting some tot lots lately, as the chips are defrosting faster than the soil. I have noticed that a lot of schools have posted no trespassing signs recently.
I still see people walking and bike riding on the property, but I am a little leery of digging a school posted no trespassing.
Has anyone else encountered this situation?

I also ignore those. As was said, they are placed there so that if a jogger or someone using the swingset slips and falls, they can say "you shouldnt' have been there in the first place". Signs like that are placed at shopping centers also ("private property, permission to pass revokable, blah blah), but I go to shopping centers all the time too. Around here where I'm at, those signs became common-place about 20 yrs. ago. They are placed next to open gates that people still go right in and walk their dogs, jog the track, after-school type stuff. If you're not being a nuisance, odds are, no one cares. On a case-by-case basis, you may have a school employee who may usher you on. No harm done. To alleviate that, go after 5pm when the last of the late-staying teachers/staff are gone. And no I wouldn't "ask", because you will risk getting a "no", when odds are, no one ever gave the matter thought, nor would they ever have paid you any mind. (until you asked).

 

[Nugs Bunny]

From Another Forum...

Good Day......Baaaaaad Cop

After a day of detecting at the treasure hunt and the school hunt on Saturday, we still had the "hunting fever" and decided to spend a few hours hunting on Sunday. The weather wasn't so good, with a light drizzle coming down but we wrapped the detectors in plastic and headed out to a couple of schools that have wood chips in the playscape area and figured we'd pick up some easy coins without having to get soaked in the grass. Before hunting we stopped for a coffee and donut and I got a 1957-d Wheatie in my change and I'm thinking WOW..... we're not even hunting yet and I have a wheatie.We hit the first school and dug a nice pile of clad and when finished we had some time left so we headed to the second school. We pretty much had the same results and were finding a lot of easy clad. We had figured to spend another 15-20 minutes before heading out when Sue mentioned to me that she noticed a police car in the parking area right near our car. I took a look and told Sue to keep detecting because we weren't doing anything illegal and the cop will probably see that and go away. I should have known better !!!! The cop stayed put but didn't leave the car so I figured he's just watching to see what we're doing and there won't be a problem. WRONG !!!!! As I'm searching I hear the bullhorn but because I wasn't expecting this I didn't hear what the officer said but looked over at the cruiser. Then she got on the bullhorn again and said in an arrogant tone "STOP WHAT YOU"RE DOING AND WALK TOWARD THE VEHICLE ! We did this immediately and as we're walking toward her she says again "KEEP WALKING TOWARD THE VEHICLE ! Now I know we're in for a hard time. When I got to her window she says WHAT DO YOU THINK YOU'RE DOING HERE? I told her that we were doing metal detecting which is a hobby. She told us that we were on school property and we were trespassing. I answered that there are no signs that forbid people from being on the school grounds. She answers back that because school is not in session and we are not involved in school activities and have no purpose to be there we are guilty of trespassing !!! I asked her if parents who bring their kids to the playscape on weekends or after school are trespassing. She couldn't give me an answer so she shifted gears and told us that we were using our "instruments" to STEAL money from the kids who lost it, and that it is JUST WRONG. This was actually laughable but I told her we'd leave. I didn't want to press my luck with her and maybe get arrested on a bogus charge and then have to hire a lawyer to take care of things. Not to let me have the last word she reminded me again that I was trespassing and that if I didn't think so I could look it up. As we headed out I was calling her every vile name I knew and may have invented a few new ones.
We did get a nice load of clad though..........74 coins....17 pennies, 6 nickels, 14 dimes, and 37 quarters for a total of $11.12. It's just too bad our "good day" was somewhat ruined by the "Cop from Hell"

 

[Nugs Bunny]

"entered a school " " if he returned he would be trespassing"

The two above examples from post # 30 sound like the norm. Do not enter the school building and do not return if asked to leave duh.

Obviously that's because my post was way over your head and you failed to grasp the point entirely.

Nobody gets arrested for metal detecting on school property... they get arrested for trespassing.

In all those different examples what were they charged with? Were all the cases they same? No... for every different circumstance they were all charged with trespassing.

One would be charged with trespassing and not metal detecting... do I really need to break out the puppets and crayons to explain something so inherently simple?

 

[Tom_in_CA]

......... nobody gets arrested for metal detecting because it's not a violation of the criminal code.

They get arrested for TRESPASSING... it doesn't matter if one is detecting or bird watching...

Can I provide examples of trespass on school property? Sure can...

Nugs, I gotta hand it to you: You're a pretty good thinker, knowing how to un-ravel things! My hats off to you for that answer. Hmmm, ok then, let's refine the question:

"Can anyone cite an instance of someone being cited for trespassing WHILE METAL DETECTING at an innocuous normal school yard?"

The reason for the distinction, is that I have a strong suspicion that while what you are saying is *technically* true, yet the charges (trespassing) are reserved for when someone is truly doing something obnoxious, preparing to steal, vandalizing, entering buildings, etc.....

 

[Treasure_Hunter]

TreasureNet will not be used as a podium to advocate breaking the law. "Technically illegal" is "illegal". Members illegally detecting is their business as long as they do not try to use TreasureNet forum to justify breaking the law....

Posted From My $50 Tablet....

 

[Treasure_Hunter]

The school district in my city is responsible for issues concerning trespassing on school grounds. They do not consider it trespassing to be on a school lot after hours when others are also using that lot to enjoy other activities. That may not be the situation everywhere so I would suggest everyone know what their district considers trespassing to be. My school district would be in agreement with you on ..." truly doing something obnoxious, preparing to steal, vandalizing, entering buildings, etc..... "

Have you personally contacted your school district and received permission to metal detect it are you assuming this?

Posted From My $50 Tablet..

 

[Treasure_Hunter]

My above post is only in regards to my school district and the numerous years of my experience with the school as well as authority over those schools. I would agree with you that a person should not think they can walk past a no trespassing sign even if the gate is open without knowing how the authority feels about a person detecting there. If they would go to one they are not familiar with how authority feels they should ask the administrator or if the administrator is not available they could talk to local law enforcement before detecting. Different schools may have different policies, so yes, one should know how they feel about someone detecting there.

So you haven't asked permission.

As a courtesy to them I have not asked them for a verbal permission

"As a courtesy to them"... The courtesy is to you not them.


Posted From My $50 Tablet....

 

[Nugs Bunny]

Nugs, I gotta hand it to you: You're a pretty good thinker, knowing how to un-ravel things! My hats off to you for that answer. Hmmm, ok then, let's refine the question:

"Can anyone cite an instance of someone being cited for trespassing WHILE METAL DETECTING at an innocuous normal school yard?"

The reason for the distinction, is that I have a strong suspicion that while what you are saying is *technically* true, yet the charges (trespassing) are reserved for when someone is truly doing something obnoxious, preparing to steal, vandalizing, entering buildings, etc.....

Thanks Tom.

I was unable to find any articles referencing one being cited for trespassing while metal detecting on school property. I was able to find hearsay at another forum about such but I'm not one for posting such.

I don't see a problem with detecting a school yard if one has permission. A lot of schools have programs and other activities during the Summer... like Summer school.

My objections are based on the increased security due to school violence... not to any perceived damage caused by metal detecting.

Maybe there is a 7:00 pm PTA meeting and one is unaware of that fact... a nervous nelly may mistake a lesche as a big knife and totally miss the detector because they panicked.

Stranger things have happened and while that possibility still exists if one has permission... it reduces the odds of facing any charges.

All I have been trying to get across is people need to be careful nowadays. There is a big difference between being scared and being smart.

 

[cudamark]

The answer is simple Tom... nobody gets arrested for metal detecting because it's not a violation of the criminal code.

They get arrested for TRESPASSING... it doesn't matter if one is detecting or bird watching...

Can I provide examples of trespass on school property? Sure can... by the hundreds... take your pick!

Three teens arrested after trespassing at Fair Park High School - ArkLatexHomepage.com
Ex-Dracut teacher arrested for trespassing at school - 7News Boston WHDH-TV
5 teens arrested for trespassing at Hampton High | WAVY-TV
Two men arrested for criminal trespass on Tascosa High School pr - KFDA - NewsChannel 10 / Amarillo News, Weather, Sports
Woman Arrested for Trespassing on School Property - WSET.com - ABC13
Man arrested for trespassing at Bend High;
Home School student arrested for trespassing on public school property - Avvo.com
Teenager arrested for trespassing on school property - WAFF-TV: News, Weather and Sports for Huntsville, AL

Two that stand out from the few I posted...

HUNTSVILLE, AL (WAFF) - Huntsville police arrested a teenager who allegedly entered a school early Tuesday morning.
According to police, security at the Academy for Academics and Arts on Poplar Avenue saw the teen on a security camera and called the authorities. The police arrested the teenage boy. Since nothing was stolen or damaged, he will most likely face criminal trespassing charges instead of a burglary charge.

A man with a metal rod was arrested for allegedly trespassing on Bend High School property Friday morning.
According to police, Beaver was confronted by police at 9:56 a.m. on the campus of Bend High School and told to leave the area.
“He wasn’t an immediate threat to the students,” said Bend Police Lt. Paul Kansky. “But there’s always a concern for safety when considering kids at school.”
Officers determined Beaver had no legitimate reason for being on the campus and told him if he returned he would be trespassing.

None of the cases noted involved simple trespass. The trespass charge was the reason used to further investigate other possible criminal actions and is probably needed to make the other charges stick. I still have yet to see one incident of someone actually being arrested for simply being on open school property while school is not in session.....whether detecting, playing ball, having a picnic, or as you mentioned, bird watching.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

The school district in my city is responsible for issues concerning trespassing on school grounds. They do not consider it trespassing to be on a school lot after hours when others are also using that lot to enjoy other activities. That may not be the situation everywhere so I would suggest everyone know what their district considers trespassing to be. My school district would be in agreement with you on ..." truly doing something obnoxious, preparing to steal, vandalizing, entering buildings, etc..... "

Kemper, if you got someone to actually tell you that they don't consider it trespassing (and that the signs only apply to those getting ready to steal, vandalize, etc...), then my hats off to you. That would be a case of "no one *really* cares" and the desk-clerk you spoke to, recognizes that reality. Yet when it comes to whether or not it constitutes "trespassing", I gaurantee you that you would indeed find someone there who says "yes it's trespassing" and "no you can't detect".

But lo & behold, I bet I can go to the same school dept. offices, and get a totally different answer. In other words, you only got the realistic answer. Not the technical one. So go back and keep asking higher and higher up the chain , and you can find someone to give you the actual technical answer

 

[Tom_in_CA]

I have detected my school with school officials seeing me as well as local law enforcement seeing me. They both have waved to me as I was detecting...... under those circumstances where they were permitting me and others to use the school grounds as we wished.

ah I love it ! The "reasonable person" would interpret those factors you describe as being "de-facto permission". Right ? In other words, if you can do something in broad daylight, at the corner of Main and 5th street in any-town USA, till you're blue in the face, and ....... no one cares, then presto, it must not be dis-allowed, right ? If cops, authorities, teachers, etc... pass you by with nothing but a friendly wave, then certainly it can't be wrong or illegal right ? Because most certainly those individuals would have booted you "if there'd been an issue", right ?

Yes: a reasonable person draws those conclusions And you, Kemper, are a reasonable person!

 

[Tom_in_CA]

...... I don't see a problem with detecting a school yard if one has permission......

I realize what I'm about to say doesn't lend data or proof to whether or not permission is needed at public schools, and to what degree fences and "oligatory signs" further muddy the matter.

But I just wanted to point something out, in the quote of yours above: Whenever the permission subject comes up (schools, parks, beaches, etc...), am I the only one noticing this factor:

The minute someone says: "it's a good idea to get permission ....", it's sort of a loaded statement, TO BEGIN WITH. Because what does that pre-suppose? That permission is needed to begin with. If that is a given true premise, then by all means, get permission. But since when is that necessarily a given premise?

Also when someone suggests "it's a good idea to get permission", it's also got another hidden bugaboo : Because let's be totally honest here: ALL of us would love to "have permission" to detect at every last place we detect. Whether it's needed or not. Because it conjurs up images of being able to detect nilly-willy and no one can bother you, etc.... Who wouldn't love that ? So when the statement is made that "it's a good idea to get permission", any naysayer who disagrees with that, ends up looking rather foolish. Doh!

 

[Nugs Bunny]

None of the cases noted involved simple trespass. The trespass charge was the reason used to further investigate other possible criminal actions and is probably needed to make the other charges stick. I still have yet to see one incident of someone actually being arrested for simply being on open school property while school is not in session.....whether detecting, playing ball, having a picnic, or as you mentioned, bird watching.

Then obviously you didn't look past the first one... but that's no surprise... you've made a determination before you clicked a single link...

How about a student of the school who entered the school early?

Teenager arrested for trespassing on school property - WAFF-TV: News, Weather and Sports for Huntsville, AL
Huntsville police arrested a teenager who allegedly entered a school early Tuesday morning.
According to police, security at the Academy for Academics and Arts on Poplar Avenue saw the teen on a security camera and called the authorities. The police arrested the teenage boy.
Since nothing was stolen or damaged, he will most likely face criminal trespassing charges instead of a burglary charge.

The examples provided were to support my statement, "one would be charged with trespassing and not metal detecting"... as metal detecting in itself is not a crime.

Those were off page one of my search... if you want cases when school wasn't in session I'm sure it would be no problem to find such if bother to search.

Something tells me this still would not be good enough for you... perhaps the perp was wearing a blue shirt and those were gang colors...

So now I must find cases where the guy wasn't wearing a blue shirt... then what will it be next?

The simple fact is that a no trespassing sign means just that. When it comes to trespassing the school officials are considered the owners not the public. So in all legality a PUBLIC school is considered PRIVATE property...

But I wouldn't expect any of you three to ask permission... it's clear where you guys stand when it comes to ethics, common courtesy and respect...

 

[Nugs Bunny]

I realize what I'm about to say doesn't lend data or proof to whether or not permission is needed at public schools, and to what degree fences and "oligatory signs" further muddy the matter.

But I just wanted to point something out, in the quote of yours above: Whenever the permission subject comes up (schools, parks, beaches, etc...), am I the only one noticing this factor:

The minute someone says: "it's a good idea to get permission ....", it's sort of a loaded statement, TO BEGIN WITH. Because what does that pre-suppose? That permission is needed to begin with. If that is a given true premise, then by all means, get permission. But since when is that necessarily a given premise?

Also when someone suggests "it's a good idea to get permission", it's also got another hidden bugaboo : Because let's be totally honest here: ALL of us would love to "have permission" to detect at every last place we detect. Whether it's needed or not. Because it conjurs up images of being able to detect nilly-willy and no one can bother you, etc.... Who wouldn't love that ? So when the statement is made that "it's a good idea to get permission", any naysayer who disagrees with that, ends up looking rather foolish. Doh!

What it comes down to Tom is having respect... the lack of which has given a black eye to the hobby that may never heal.

It's not about the technically legality... because technically one is trespassing at a school.

The who really cares method is a great way to PO those who really care.

Let's say the school actually does care... catches you there and runs you off... What kind of image does this give us?

Let's say one asks beforehand... they may say yes... they may say no... Would it give us a bad image by asking?

RESPECT let me say that again... RESPECT... RESPECT is why I ask permission...

It's not about whether or not I need permission, I ask to find out if anybody cares.

And for the record... Schools are considered PRIVATE property when it comes to trespass...

 

[Tom_in_CA]

What it comes down to Tom is having respect...

Nugs, I consider metal detecting to be the most respectful thing anyone can do on any given location.

.....The who really cares method is a great way to PO those who really care....

I don't disagree that there is bound to be someone out there who "cares". There is ALWAYS someone who "might gripe". I agree with you. And I also agree that it would be wonderful to get their love and approval (permission) AHEAD OF TIME. Who wouldn't want total concurrence from every last conceivable authority ? However, the devil is in the details: The minute you and I start running around to make sure everyone "signs off on it", you will invariably run into "no's", even though no specific rule exists that says such a thing. Deskbound persons can simply conjur up something else they think applies to the question (disturbing, altering, removing, harming earthworms, etc...) and give you the "safe" answer. So it's not that I don't wish every last person approved of me. I do. It's just that I've had to take a dose of reality, that it's simply impossible to get every last archie and gardener to love my chosen hobby.

 

[Nugs Bunny]

Let's say one asks beforehand... they may say yes... they may say no... Would it give us a bad image by asking?--Nugs Bunny

If you are talking about an area such as a city park where people regularly detect and have without asking it may cause someone to wonder why you are asking. It may also cause someone to wonder exactly what are you asking to do. (how you do it). So no it would not necessarily give us a bad image by asking but could restrict us. I guess someone should decide if they are in the image hobby or the detecting hobby. They can then do what they think is best for their hobby.

No we are talking about schools... as we have been for awhile in this thread.

Hiding behind sheds and garages as you do may also give the impression one is up to no good.

But in all reality what is going to cause more restrictions... Having enough RESPECT to ask or just going at it till you get the boot?

Oh wait... what's this....

As a metal detectorist I search parks and private property with permission looking for coins and stuff and really enjoy the hobby...
Can't wait to tell my friends

Funny considering how many times you have posted asking permission is a bad, bad thing that only a fool or a sissy would do!

 

[Tom_in_CA]

.... It may also cause someone to wonder exactly what are you asking to do.......

Kemper, you hit one of the key-points right on the head: The minute someone walks into any office, asking permission to do ANY activity, then the mere fact that they're standing their asking permission, implies that something is "amiss" or "askew" with it, that they needed to ask. Ie.: potentially harmful, dis-liked, dangerous, wrong, etc....

Because think of it: If a certain activity were innocuous (flying frisbees for instance), would you be asking "can I?". No. So the mere fact of someone standing their asking permission for something, subconsciously tells the person you are asking that there is some sort of risk or harm involved (lest why else would you be asking, if it were innocuous?). This will often time become nothing more than a self-fulfilling vicious loop, that ...... whereas the person may never have given the matter a moment's thought, yet now they're tasked with having to run it through a variety of "what if?" filters in their brain. Ie.: the "pressing question" that gets the "safe answer" routine.