When will a Metal Detector Manufacturer package VLF and PI Technology into a new MD?

[huntsman53]

I often wonder why a Metal Detector Manufacturer has not yet packaged VLF and PI Technology into one Metal Detector and when they will finally do so! With the leaps and bounds in Electronics, Computer and Processor technology, surely a Metal Detector Manufacturing Company will realize that this is the next step in the evolution of Metal Detectors. Many of us have both VLF and PI Metal Detectors in our' arsenal of tools for metal detecting and who would not want a metal detector that incorporated both technologies into one Metal Detector which could be accessed by the simple flip of a switch or turn of a knob??!! I am certain that such a Metal Detector could be produced and any conflicts internally with the electronics, computer (if it has such technology), processor and coil along with externally with the signal can be overcome. Can you just imagine what such a Metal Detector could do for you, no matter what you are searching for or where??!! In the mid-1990's while working for the National Weather Service and attending a training course and seminar on the WSR-88D Doppler Weather Radar, I asked why they had not incorporated Precipitation Mode and Clear Air Mode into the sweeps and processing of a complete scan (one scan) of the atmosphere by the radar. You see, back then the WSR-88D Radar made one complete sweep of the atmosphere in Precipitation Mode (to detect drizzle or other rainfall, super moist clouds, thunderstorms, severe weather, high winds and more) and then did a complete sweep in Clear Air Mode to detect things in the atmosphere that do not usually show up in Precipitation Mode (i.e. Temperature Discontinuities, Dry Lines, Gust Fronts or Outflow Boundaries and frozen precipitation such as Snow and Hail) before processing the information for display to our' Computer Screens for us to analyze. This took way too long for the radar and it's processors to accomplish and thus, some severe weather events developed and were gone or ended by the time we ever saw them for analyzing. At the time, the powers that be, stated that it was not possible to incorporate both Modes into only one complete scan of the atmosphere. Well, around the early to mid-2000's, they accomplished it and due to advances in Computer and Processor technologies, they were able to increase the processing speeds to nearly half of the time it took before. Today, advances are still being made with these technologies and the processing times for a complete scan of the atmosphere by the radar and the information to get to Computer Screens is even much faster. So, I ask, when is a Metal Detector Manufacturing Company going to package VLF and PI Technology into one Metal Detector??


Frank

 

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[mikeraydj]

Why stop there? Why not incorporate ground penetrating radar too?

 

[BryanM362]

Probably would be too expensive!

 

[Jason in Enid]

Coil configurations are different, circuitry is completely different. You would have to basically smash two detectors together which is going to add more weight and it's going to reduce the sensitivity of the coil because it will have a lot more (un-used) windings creating signal interference. Both can't be operated at the same time without complete signal overload.

I can't see any positives to this, if I need a VLF I pick that one up. If I need a PI I use that one instead.

 

[DDancer]

Jason brings up some valid points. I'll add this thought~ to what purpose would it serve to have both technologies inside the same unit? Other than having two machines in one, technical difficulties aside, there is no other real benefit.
Lets say your using this unit as a PI, you hit a signal, and now you want to use the discrimination benefits of the VLF. The PI punched thru the mineralization but the VLF cant see the signal. You use the VLF and get a signal and switch to the PI. PI is all metal so there is no beneficial information as provided by the VLF. The PI will just tell you "yep its there".
Lets say the machine can operate in a blended mode of PI and VLF. You still have the same problems.
No benefit is had other than having two machines in one. Of course that might just be all you want

Your analogy about weather radar is nice but in comparison to what your proposing it does not work for me. The weather radar is the same system its always been~ not two technologies but two techniques for the same technology as shown by the analogy. So as a time progresses the techniques were compatable for blending. VLFs and PI's are not compatible *at least not now* as they represent two technologies.

My thoughts.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Jason hit the nail on the head. They are two completely different beasts. Hence two different sets of innards, coils, etc...

Yes there's been machines in history that incorporated 2 or 3 seemingly disparate detectors into one (to get the best of both worlds, where you can flip back and forth to compare signals). The VLF/TR is an example of this. Or the 6000 which allowed a) vlf disc, b) vlf all-metal, and c) TR disc.

But no, to try to do so with PI + vlf isn't an option. And I might add: that often time machines that try to offer the "best of both worlds", tend to excell in neither arena anyhow. An example of this is machines that try to be cross-over nugget + coin hunters. Sure there's plenty of machines that afford the ability to swap back and forth (with the flips of the switches) between hunt types. However, they excell in neither arena. Ie.: there will be "better" coin-relic machines, and there will be better nugget-specific machines. The cross-over machine tends to need compromises, as it's probably no easy task to design a machine that can do both at peak.

Because when you think of it, using that nugget or coins as an example: Those two hunt types are almost diametrically opposed: The coin hunter DOESN'T want to hear every last staple, pinhead, birdshot, etc.. While the nugget hunter DOES want the bells of notre dame to ring over a pinhead. Doh!

 

[el padron]

Are you kidding?
They won't even spent 78 cents waterproofing a $130 pinpointer.
why should they?
They turn out cheaply made unbelievably overpriced technology that is getting bought in record numbers by people that don't know any better.
With few exceptions the technology that we currently are using is performing at 10% of what it would be if it was well thought out, featured current technology, and was built out of quality materials.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

el-padron, I'm sure than anyone can think up improvements to their car, house, microwave oven, TV, metal detector, etc.... But in the end, capitalism will prevail. Eg.: if you make a better mousetrap, the world will beat a path to your door. If the .78c water-proof improvement that you speak of, were such a "no brainer" (ie,: profitable, sure to steer customers, etc...), then it would have been done already. And if that's not the case, then why don't you introduce such a device to market ? Afterall, it's "sure to sell like hotcakes", and I'm sure you have ".78c burning a hole in your pocket right now, right ?".

As a business owner, I too have some notions of how I can improve my product, if-I-so-cared to. But if I'm practically turning away business as it is, what's my incentive ? Sheer altruistic good-will ? Just to get more demand/orders for jobs I can't ful-fill and have to "turn down" ? What sense does that make ? Hence the busines world does not act like it sounds like you think it should.

Using your probe thing as an example: Trust me: there's VERY few probes sold, relative to the population (as opposed to cellphones, cars, TVs, etc...) to drive all-fired-competition to drive the incentive to go balls-to-the-walls. If someone else feels there's a market to fuel all sorts of improvements, then the market would have met that niche. Leaving the "lazy supplier who didn't care to keep up", to suffer loss of sales.

 

[SouthFLdigger]

How about designing a small digital waterproof to 50 feet multi-frequency detector (similar in size to the AT pro) with similar technology to cz-21 but digital in a small package that does not weigh 5 lbs and uses one 9 volt battery. Such a detector will really be all terrain and i would buy one in a heartbeat. With new surface mount 9-20 micron lithography typically found on modern PCB designs with surface mount components, such a design will be very powerful and not too expensive. This will negate the need for PI and VLF circuits. A multiple frequency transmitter VLF of proper design will cancel many of the effects of mineralization to large extent, such a unit will use standard coils as well. Minelab designs similar units but put in place far too many concurrent circuits that add complex feature sets(ADD COST!). Imagine a digital CZ-21/ CZ-3D with perhaps the additional feature of tone ID and ground readout and adjust, in small digital package waterproof to 50 ft with an easy 12" depth in moderate mineralized soil or salt water. A design incorporating the same algorithm based spatial frequency domain and time domain DSP discrimination, with improved separation and speed over a CZ-21. A unit like this can be made by fisher and others for around $1000-1300 especially with the new PCB fabrication processes available today at reasonable costs and replication. Such a unit would be ideal!!

 

[DDancer]

Its an interesting idea Florida,
Only error in the statement is the elimination of a PI circuit for reasons I put forth. Not required and not helpful in my opinion. Vlf's just cant perform like the PI when it comes to raw power for the punch down. PI's just cant give you data like the VLF's no matter what the depth. Incompatible technologies at this point in time.

I thought there was such a unit.... but I don't dive and such things are not on my perview Well till I run outta land to play with.

 

[Charlie P. (NY)]

They turn out cheaply made unbelievably overpriced technology that is getting bought in record numbers by people that don't know any better.
With few exceptions the technology that we currently are using is performing at 10% of what it would be if it was well thought out, featured current technology, and was built out of quality materials.

Yup. We dopes. We wait for brilant guy like you to make $75 detectur and we take our brand new $1,000 car that get 60 mpg to buy one.

 

[el padron]

Yup. We dopes. We wait for brilant guy like you to make $75 detectur and we take our brand new $1,000 car that get 60 mpg to buy one.

Thats your ego talking, subliminally you know full well that most of the stuff sold is underdeveloped and overpriced.

 

[Treasure_Hunter]

End the insults now, stop talking down to members now....

 

[SouthFLdigger]

Its an interesting idea Florida,
Only error in the statement is the elimination of a PI circuit for reasons I put forth. Not required and not helpful in my opinion. Vlf's just cant perform like the PI when it comes to raw power for the punch down. PI's just cant give you data like the VLF's no matter what the depth. Incompatible technologies at this point in time.

I thought there was such a unit.... but I don't dive and such things are not on my perview Well till I run outta land to play with.

PI's are great but the lack of reasonable cost and effective discrimination with PI's even after years of research in pulse width is a real bummer.

 

[gleaner1]

Never.

 

[DDancer]

Yeah I have to agree its a bummer. Cost is always going to be a problem. As to the lack of discrimination well that's just the nature of the beast though I've a few ideas on that. The technology may exist to pull information from a target on a PI system, Terahertz stuff, but the processing involved and the coupling of the two techs just has not been achieved. I wonder if its even been looked at~ would that I had a Charles Branson budget I'd give it a go myself. But that's just opinion from me. *shrugs* Then again its possible that these to are incompatible techs. Hahh!

 

[Carl-NC]

El Padron, did you ever take the time to visit a metal detector factory? Might alter your views a bit.

All: Combining VLF & PI into a switchable unit isn't all that difficult, someone somewhere has one on the market (I don't recall who). I designed one several years ago but never took it to production. It's a pretty nichey detector, and detectors are already a niche product.