My Trip to Tel Aviv - Beach finds 2000 year old coin and over 8 grams of gold!

[Skippy SH13]

EDIT: No longer maintaining post

 

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[Z.K.]

Really happy for you! Incredible find and history lesson, and I love the ethics you exhibited. Keep us posted, and safe travels!

 

[Tom_in_CA]

skippy, can you link whatever laws it was saying md'ing is ok there in places "that aren't designated historical sites" ?

Or if it was just someone you asked telling you that info: What did they provide you that were they citing, to effectively say that ? Ie.: were they referring to some law ? Or the absence (silence) of a law , they deemed to be "yes" ?

And how about the mandate that if someone finds an old coin, that they must report it to the "antiquity ministry" ? Is there a link to that requirement ? Or if someone was telling you that, were they referencing some place where it actually says that ?

I hope whomever it was in the "antiquity ministry" who you gave the coin too, isn't a purist archie type. Who might deduce: "Gee, do we really want all these yahoos running around md'ing ?"

 

[Dave N Japan]

 

[Terry Soloman]

Super finds!

 

[NHBandit]

Tom, I spent HOURS doing this research before I left, and didn't document it all. I wasn't about to take my MD into a country without know it was ok. Israeli security is dang beefy. Had no problems coming in or our, btw. It came down to this. I was not conductnig any kind of excavation, and public areas that aren't on the historical registries lists were ok for hobby detectorists. I don't remember the link, and don't care to go repeat all the research... In the end it was also confirmed by a local, who detects regularly, too. Again, though, we aren't looking for anything old, nor hitting historical sites that are off limits (like the US has them, too, for example). And...as mentioned, several other detectorists were out, and Tel Aviv has police patrolling constantly... never bothered any of us on the beach.



The easiest quick clarification of the law can be found in the wiki page of the 1978 Antiquities law: When an antiquity is discovered or found in Israel, it becomes the property of the State. The person who discovers or finds an antiquity is required to notify the Director of the Israel Antiquities Authority within fifteen days of the discovery or find. A person claiming to have discovered or found the antiquity before the development of this law is required to provide proof. The Director may waive State ownership of an antiquity in writing.

Regarding the Antiquities Ministry, I conducted my research here: Israel Antiquities Authority

This is not about purist "archies" types. This is codified LAW in Israel. Here's the start of it showing definitions:
Israel Antiquities Authority

Here's the actual "what do I do, if I find something?" portion of the law:
Israel Antiquities Authority

(and for those not wanting to look it up, here's the relevant parts:
Notification of discovery of antiquity.
3. A person who discovers or finds an antiquity otherwise than in an excavtion under a licence pursuant to this Law shall notify the Director within fifteen days of the discovery or find.
Waiver of rights of State.
4. The Director may in writing request a person in possession of an antiquity referred to in section 2(a) to deliver it up to him, and he may reward the deliverer if he considers that the circumstances justify his doing so.
Request for loan of antiquity.
5. The Director may in writing request any person in possession of an antiquity to give it to him for the purpose of inspection or any other purpose for a period not exceeding ninety days.
8. The Director may waive State ownership of an antiquity in writing,and upon his doing so, the antiquity shall cease to be the property of the State.
Request for delivery.

Alternatively, there is a time-out clause
Antiquity of national value.

19.(a) The Director may in writing notify the owner or possessor of an antiquity that the antiquity is of national value.
(b) Within three months of notification under subsection (a), the Director may request that the antiquity be sold to the State.



I think you missed something. The coin is in MY possession. I've contacted the Ministry and the Director has 90 days to respond, in writing, or it automatic. And they've already deduced they don't want "these yahoos running around md'ing," btw. For me, this is NOT about fear of messing things up for metal detectorists who come behind me.

This is like the UK laws where old items also have to be reported. Failure do to so is a criminal offense. And here's why I'm reporting it.

1) I'm honest. I believe in living the laws of the countries I visit.
2) This is CRITICAL for my job. I screw this up, and I'm not only upsetting the Israeli government, but also could lose my job.
2) I'd forever not be able to talk about the coin online. The MOMENT I admitted to finding it and taking it out of country, I'm not only guilty of failure to report, but also guilty of export of national antiquity... which carries a hefty fine and jail time.

And... like in the UK, it's not like it was hard to report. I went online, clicked the connect button, and gave them my personal information. They can either choose to follow up, or in 90 days, the coin is mine.

And to be clear, if they ask for it back. I'll send it back. It belongs to the State of Israel, currently. I didn't realize that until I knew what I had and had fully confirmed it (anything after 1700 is not considered an "antiquity" (see #1 of Israel Antiquities Authority). The moment that happened, I had 15 days.

I believe I have fully complied with the law. I know you've got a strong penchant for protecting MDers unwritten writes (something not codified against is allowed), but in this case, the law was clear, whether I'd found it with a metal detector, with a sand shovel, or digging with a flip-flop. It's an antiquity.

Cheers!

Skippy

Good old Tom.. Always predictable.. "It's not stealing if you don't get caught"....

 

[WhiteTornado]

Not only very cool finds, but you provide some of the best write ups on here. Your interest and excitement really shine through in your posts . Thanks for taking the time to share it.

 

[SeabeeRon]

Gave that coin a BANNER vote!!

 

[T.C.]

Banner!!

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Skippy, thanx for taking the time to type that all out. Yes, the UK (where there is no shortage of md'rs) has similar wording. But as you know, individual coins are not considered "antiquities". The govt. is only concerned about bigger ticket unique items (caches, historically unique things, or whatever). And the UK hunters find and keep individual coins all the time.

Thanx for the link that defines "antiquity" as being 1700 or older . Reading your link, it doesn't seem to exclude "individual coins". I can only imagine that if the md'rs there venture onto land (non historically themed sites, farmers fields, etc....) that .... given the age and history of the country .... That the Antiquities Authority must be getting bombarded with daily reports.

 

[DeepseekerADS]

Danged Skippy! I remember when you first joined.

And now you are an International Treasure Hunter!

Congratulations on the coin you'll remember throughout your lifetime!

 

[nsdq]

Wow that is a really cool find

 

[UNC_]

wanna say great find and u gave some excellent answers to questions asked of u ....well if nothing else if they decide they want it back u still have the pictures and the story they cant take that and u know u did it rght by their laws congrats again !!!!

 

[algeus]

That's a GREAT find.
I'm hunting for couple of years T-A beaches(SandShark) and never found anything older than old Israeli Lira coins.

 

[SeabeeRon]

Thanks Algeus... It was a great find.. Unfortunately, this morning, my e-mail greeted me with a return message from the Israeli Antiquities department. They want the coin sent back, as it is the "Property of the State of Israel." I've asked for a written note from the Director allowing me to keep it, but it doesn't seem likely. The Archealogist who returned my inquiry was pretty "form letter" about it all, stating strongly that if I were in town, they'd request I take it to them, but since I'm no longer in town, they can only "ask" for it's return. Weird. I'm certainly not going to jeapardize any relational status with the State of Israel though... Besides that, I believe in obeying the laws of the places I visit.

The funniest part of the "form letter" was that I had disturbed the Historical Context of the find by removing it. Uh... from 4" of sand just north of the Israel Surf Club? Unlikely... LOL

It's likely I'll be returning it, sometime this week. I'll get some more pictures, but it was fun while it lasted.

Well, Kudos to you for doing what you feel is right. When they put it on display (wink, wink) maybe you can ask to have a little card placed next to it giving you credit for the find?!? Still a "Banner" find in my book!!

 

[Tom_in_CA]

... The funniest part of the "form letter" was that I had disturbed the Historical Context of the find by removing it. ....

"Funny" ? Well sure, because we md'rs know that there is utterly no "context" of beach sand, which comes and goes with each season.

But to them (and us md'rs by extension) it is not "funny". It is "scary". Because: The probable purist archie who sent you that letter is now, no doubt, having the "wheels in his head turn". Did your letter/email to them say you "found it with a metal detector" ? Then if this has landed on the desk of a purist archie (which certainly sounds that way d/t his "context" bologna), then this might be doing a dis-service to the future of md'ing there. Ie.: while not dis-allowed now, yet if enough of these keep "crossing their desk" (by well-meaning md'rs trying to be in strict compliance with the letter of the law), it might only be a matter of time before they figure:

"Gee, do we really want all these yahoos out there digging up our past" ?

 

[cudamark]

Returning that coin should help ease any negative views against us "yahoos" with detectors.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Returning that coin should help ease any negative views against us "yahoos" with detectors.

Sure. I have no doubt that the archie who sent him the veiled "shame on you" letter , would no doubt appreciate that .... on the other hand, would say "that's the law". But on the OTHER hand, can you agree that it might put the wheels in motion for simply out-lawing it altogether ?

Example: There was a case here in the USA, where some md'r got a signal on the beach. Dug down, and hit planks of wood (with bolts holding it together, which had given off the signal to his detector) . The md'r decided it might be a buried pirate ship or pirate treasure. Yeah yeah it was probably nothing more than wind-blow sand that had covered a modern wooden walkway. But the radio shack commando thought he'd discovered the next Atocha, haha

So he set about to "do the right thing": He alerted the state bureaucracy of this treasure he wanted to recover. He was offering to split it 50/50. Provided they allowed him to bring in heavy equipment to retrieve it, and so forth. Sounds like "the right thing" to do, eh ? (perhaps he'd even found a "law" that required this ?).

But instead, he got a resounding "no". And ..... a bunch of pencil pushers at state headquarters bristling at the thought of "yahoos with metal detectors digging up our shores". Hence instead of getting a "pat on the back", he was getting bad attention towards us. And bureaucrats questioned themselves of "why are we allowing this?" or "is this allowed", etc....

Hence sometimes the LESS attention is better for our hobby, not the MORE attention. Ie.: the less that purist archies (locked up in their ivory desks 200 miles away) think of us, the better.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

skippy, excellent post. I really mean that !

Ok, turn the tables: If a visitor from Tel Aviv were to be a tourist to California, .... let's say he looked up the laws of the State beach park's dept. here. And let's say he found our verbiage regarding the state park's dept. cultural heritage rules. And those talk about the forbiddance of "removing artifacts". And so he sleuths further to find out what the definition of "artifact" is (after all, you can't be too safe, eh?) . He finds out that is an item 50 yrs. or older. Hmmm, ok.

So he goes out to one of our beaches and finds a 1965 penny or dime. Now what ? To follow what you're saying, he would send that to the state of CA, right ? I won't disagree if you said "yes he should". Ok, but then so too should all us legions of CA hunters, right ?

What would happen if we all did ? I know for a fact there's a single (maybe 2) archies in CA, that if they got wind of this (or saw you on the beach) they would read you the riot act. So you tell me: Is it better that this "single archie stay at his desk unaware" ? Or is it better that these "pressing issues" cross his desk ?

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Great answer Skippy. And I agree: Some laws are like "spitting on sidewalks" laws. Contrast to some place that really does care less (ie.: enforces) then sure, by all means either a) send in your items that are older than the cuttoff, (and get a shame on you reprimand like you did, for having disturbed it) or b) re-insert them info the ground, c) don't be caught with it.

You're aware that ancient coins can be bought from the tourist curiosity shops there, right ? They have coin collectors there, just like anywhere else in the world. I know 2 friends who've gone to the Holy Land area, and encountered street market vendors who had ancient coins for sale . A dish of them , your choice , for a few dollars each. So if you were to buy one, and have it on-your-person, that's ok, right ? You just can't "find" it, right ?