Got an E-mail from Mr. Johnston

[HotTexas]

My name is Dennis Johnston and I am the Park Administrator for Harris County Precinct 4. I have been asked to respond to your e-mail concerning park regulations and metal detectors. I appreciate your concerns about metal detecting in our Precinct 4 Parks and I hope my response via this e-mail will help you understand why we take the position prohibiting metal detectors on park lands.



A recent incident at one of our parks involved a person with a metal detector digging up trinkets as witnessed by an employee of the Texas Historical Commission (THC). The THC called my office and brought to our attention the legal questions of allowing this activity at our Harris County Precinct 4 Parks. The Texas Antiquities Code section 191.092 clearly states that public lands including those owned by Texas counties must be protected from potential removal of artifacts by those without proper scientific permits and credentials. We asked the Harris County Attorney’s office to investigate and the following is their response:



After reviewing chapter 191 of the Texas Natural Resources Code and after consulting with the Texas Historical Commission, our office is of the opinion that the county may prohibit the operation or use of metal detectors in county parks. By way of example, the state prohibits the operation or use of metal detectors in state parks. The exception to not operating or using metal detectors in county parks would be if the operator or user had contracted with the Antiquities Committee for discovery and scientific investigation or obtained a permit from the Antiquities Committee for survey and discovery, excavation, restoration, demolition, or study.



By allowing the conduct of metal detecting to continue on park grounds we risk legal litigation and many other potential pitfalls with the THC should an existing registered archaeology site get pillaged or a potential site be uncovered by amateur archaeologists or metal detectors. Currently there are registered sites within our park grounds. They are not made public for obvious reasons. Many other potential sites exist within park owned lands, yet to be discovered, and thus items that are removed today could potentially provide missing facts for future archaeologists. As we can not discriminate nor continuously monitor any one person’s intent involving metal detection discoveries within our parks, we have discontinued allowing the practice altogether within Harris County Precinct 4 Parklands. We appreciate your cooperation in this matter.

 

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[Tom_in_CA]

Thank you very much for posting this. This is absolutely unbelievable! Let's break this down a bit, to its potential ramifications beyond Houston:

Pay attention to his underlying logic for his prohibition of detectors. They are factors that exist in EVERY public park, school, beach, even private land, etc.... He cites "chapter 191 of the Texas Natural Resources Code" which, of course, what city or county or state wouldn't to protect their "artifacts"?

And just to head off the argument that the "trinkets" might have been modern (and thus, not "artifacts"), he puts in this line: "items that are removed today could potentially provide missing facts for future archaeologists". Note the word "future", which means.... yup, even though a clad dime is not a historical resource now, it WILL be in 100 yrs, so better leave it there for future archies. Is that just a crock or what??

And then I loved this line: "Many other potential sites exist within park owned lands, yet to be discovered" See how cleaver he is? Just to be sure that someone doesn't point out that they are on a non-historic site, digging non-historic items, they cover that base by saying that maybe you MIGHT discover a historic site that previously wasn't known? And we couldn't have that could we?

Lastly, notice that .... apparently this was all brought about when a md'r was "witnessed by an employee of the Texas Historical Commission (THC). The THC called my office and brought to our attention" Like, apparently before that, it was un-regulated, or in whatever way, detectors were just ignored (it had never come to their attention). Only THEN did they check the books, talk to archies, and decided that there were EXISTING laws on the books that they could meld to apply, to boot md'rs. Is this making sense to ANYONE out there? Do you get it? Here is a classic example of a place where, apparently people could detect, unbothered, even though something on the books (if you tried hard enough) could be construed to apply to say "no". Yet it's not until it's brought to enough bureaucrat's attention, that they even think of it, and thus say "no". This is the reason why I say: Leave good enough alone, and don't ask. Then PRESTO, your parks are off-limits.

For example, in my area, there are parks that I can trace back the lineage of detecting usage since the 1970s. Back in those times, things like this were unheard of. It never even dawned on us that you needed to ask for public parks (barring an obvious monument). We would just detected, and were never bothered. Even right in front of gardeners, city workers, etc.... Now you might say that when the day-&-age came of all these laws and stories, that the parks that, up till now, had never had a problem, where therefore "grandfathered in", right? I mean, don't you think that if you can do it anytime, in full view of God and everyone, for 25 yrs, that it therefore must be ok? OR do you go down to city hall and ask now? Mind you, there are laws EVERYWHERE that can be construed to tell you "no".

If any of you can say "well I got an ok from my city hall, so therefore it's ok to ask, and be safe". I gaurantee you that I can go to whomever gave you that permission, show them enough of the type of talk and laws that HotTexas posted here (which no doubts exists in some form everywhere), and get your permission revoked immediately! Obviously whomever gives out "ok's" from city halls across the USA is apparently not informed enough. Just as this Houstan park official guy dug deep enough, and came out with this.

This is just classic. Sorry for the rant. I will just lay low, do my detecting at odd-ball off-hours, and hopefully my open parks will continue to stay that way.

 

[Spidey]

Did you email him for permission to hunt? Why did you even give him the chance to tell you no? Maybe I'm not hearing the whole story, but was there some kind of confrontation with a park employee that led to this?

 

[Dimeman]

My name is Dennis Johnston and I am the Park Administrator for Harris County Precinct 4. I have been asked to respond to your e-mail concerning park regulations and metal detectors. I appreciate your concerns about metal detecting in our Precinct 4 Parks and I hope my response via this e-mail will help you understand why we take the position prohibiting metal detectors on park lands.



A recent incident at one of our parks involved a person with a metal detector digging up trinkets as witnessed by an employee of the Texas Historical Commission (THC). The THC called my office and brought to our attention the legal questions of allowing this activity at our Harris County Precinct 4 Parks. The Texas Antiquities Code section 191.092 clearly states that public lands including those owned by Texas counties must be protected from potential removal of artifacts by those without proper scientific permits and credentials. We asked the Harris County Attorney’s office to investigate and the following is their response:



After reviewing chapter 191 of the Texas Natural Resources Code and after consulting with the Texas Historical Commission, our office is of the opinion that the county may prohibit the operation or use of metal detectors in county parks. By way of example, the state prohibits the operation or use of metal detectors in state parks. The exception to not operating or using metal detectors in county parks would be if the operator or user had contracted with the Antiquities Committee for discovery and scientific investigation or obtained a permit from the Antiquities Committee for survey and discovery, excavation, restoration, demolition, or study.



By allowing the conduct of metal detecting to continue on park grounds we risk legal litigation and many other potential pitfalls with the THC should an existing registered archaeology site get pillaged or a potential site be uncovered by amateur archaeologists or metal detectors. Currently there are registered sites within our park grounds. They are not made public for obvious reasons. Many other potential sites exist within park owned lands, yet to be discovered, and thus items that are removed today could potentially provide missing facts for future archaeologists. As we can not discriminate nor continuously monitor any one person’s intent involving metal detection discoveries within our parks, we have discontinued allowing the practice altogether within Harris County Precinct 4 Parklands. We appreciate your cooperation in this matter.

I guess all the sharp edge razor blades,knives,numerous kinds of metal bits and pieces that are harmful to people, and trash items as pulltabs, soda cans,foil bits and pieces,pieces of junk metal in the ground, discarded drug paraphanalia, dropped guns, bullets...etc., etc. .....that us detectorists find and get it out of harms way from the typical park users ,are RARE archaeologists treasures, waiting to be found by future archaeologists that may never walk on the ground, that the items are on top of or under.

Every detectorist uses a code of ethics which among other items, includes taking trash found, out of the area and disposing it, and refilling all holes, and leaving the area as it was, but actually we leave it better, since we rid the park of buried, or visable, dangerous items. Detectorists find these dangerous items in areas of the park that people use, and also in the areas where children play. We remove these items, so all park users are much safer.
And we do this for the small amount of coins that we also find in the park areas, we are actually cleaning the park areas, for no charge to the city or county!!!! And for this, in some areas, some metal detector users are fined and their equipment gets taken away from us?

 

[Dimeman]

Did you email him for permission to hunt? Why did you even give him the chance to tell you no? Maybe I'm not hearing the whole story, but was there some kind of confrontation with a park employee that led to this?

See the other post in this same section ...... FYI;Tx unlawful detecting areas

Dimeman

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Dimeman, the answer to your question would be that even junk, like pulltabs, razor blades, etc.... can be future arcaheological info. I mean, think of it: when archies do digs now, they gather info from.... what was back then ..... junk. Broken crockery shards, sewing needles, and old spoon, etc.... are all types of thing archie's oogle over when they're 100 and 200 yrs. old. They tell you how people of those eras lived. So taking what Hot Texas posted here to its logical conclusion, yes, they even want the junk left alone.

One time I tried to tell someone, who was taking issue with me md'ing a certain place, that I was doing a good service by removing trash. They didn't buy it, and told me "it was in the ground, and therefore unseen and not hurting anything" (as opposed to if I/we were picking up trash off the top of the ground, then yes, it might be considered a public service). Of course, we pick stuff up on the top too, but for the most part, our trash was already out of site/out of mind, till we revealed it.

 

[Dimeman]

Dimeman, the answer to your question would be that even junk, like pulltabs, razor blades, etc.... can be future arcaheological info. I mean, think of it: when archies do digs now, they gather info from.... what was back then ..... junk. Broken crockery shards, sewing needles, and old spoon, etc.... are all types of thing archie's oogle over when they're 100 and 200 yrs. old. They tell you how people of those eras lived. So taking what Hot Texas posted here to its logical conclusion, yes, they even want the junk left alone.

One time I tried to tell someone, who was taking issue with me md'ing a certain place, that I was doing a good service by removing trash. They didn't buy it, and told me "it was in the ground, and therefore unseen and not hurting anything" (as opposed to if I/we were picking up trash off the top of the ground, then yes, it might be considered a public service). Of course, we pick stuff up on the top too, but for the most part, our trash was already out of site/out of mind, till we revealed it.

If a child falls in the tot area that has gravelstone and lands and gets punctured by a discarded drug needle a junkie dropped the night before, or his hand gets cut on a knife just under the surface of the gravelstones then it would be "hurting anything".
A detectorist removing these kind of objects can possibly prevent this injury to a child or grown park user.
It just is not right to not have the "no detecting -rules" posted at a park site and they can give someone a fine and have equipment confiscated.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Yeah, I agree Dimeman, I just tellin' ya what THEY would probably say I like to dig pits on our pocket beaches, down to bedrock, where we hope to pitch out barbers and seateds. During that process, we sometimes get "poked" by copper bailing type wire, that was used by the Chinese fishermen (crab-basket and fishing net repairs) back in the late 1800s. Although it would be unusual for storm erosion to erode low enough to expose this "dangerous" trash, it might be possible for kids to dig that low while digging for sand forts, sand castles etc....

Hey, that's it!!!! I'll start sending the city/county/state a "bill for my services"

 

[Dimeman]

Yes I hear you....that IS what they would say for sure..........

We should ALL send a bill to the county/city from those who CAN detect any parks.....for keeping the parks cleaner by removing trash and harmful items that the park people DON'T pickup in their rounds.

Wouldn't THAT be something if all the county/city parks departments got a shipload of bills from all the metal detectorists for, park cleaning services rendered??


That is something to think about!!!!!!!!!!!!! heh heh heh

 

[midnightcaller]

What is the FMDAC doing about stuff like this?are they invole?
Midnightcaller

 

[jeff of pa]

By allowing the conduct of metal detecting to continue on park grounds we risk legal litigation and many other potential pitfalls with the THC should an existing registered archaeology site get pillaged or a potential site be uncovered by amateur archaeologists or metal detectors. Currently there are registered sites within our park grounds. They are not made public for obvious reasons.

Every time I read comments like this it Pi$es Me off to no end.

In other words we are all Criminals & the moment they make them public
we're all going to do Night Ops.

Say your on a farm field, there is a 100'x100' Registered site in it.
But they won't tell you this.
However if they see you detecting they will watch & the moment you
dig in that area, you get arrested. No Excuses.

"Ignorance is no Excuse" we are supposed to be able to read minds.

As we can not discriminate

What is This ?

they are Discriminating against Detectorists.
and amateur archaeologists

 

[Tin Nugget]

Bottom line is it is easier to leave the THC alone. They have to much clout. Everyone knows we do not dig up antiquities out of parks unless you want to call everything antiquities or FUTURE antiquities. It is just a convenient way for archaeologist to hold control. They feel everything belongs to them even if they may never find it. It's an unfortunate thing but they have been able to convince officials over the years and now hold to much sway. Who is going to fight for our rights? Without a strong organization and allot of voices behind that organization, nothing is going to change. You read his statement. (ONE) person said something and that one voice changed everything, but it was the voice of an Archy.

 

[RUDY2003]

My name is Dennis Johnston and I am the Park Administrator for Harris County Precinct 4. I have been asked to respond to your e-mail concerning park regulations and metal detectors. I appreciate your concerns about metal detecting in our Precinct 4 Parks and I hope my response via this e-mail will help you understand why we take the position prohibiting metal detectors on park lands.



A recent incident at one of our parks involved a person with a metal detector digging up trinkets as witnessed by an employee of the Texas Historical Commission (THC). The THC called my office and brought to our attention the legal questions of allowing this activity at our Harris County Precinct 4 Parks. The Texas Antiquities Code section 191.092 clearly states that public lands including those owned by Texas counties must be protected from potential removal of artifacts by those without proper scientific permits and credentials. We asked the Harris County Attorney’s office to investigate and the following is their response:



After reviewing chapter 191 of the Texas Natural Resources Code and after consulting with the Texas Historical Commission, our office is of the opinion that the county may prohibit the operation or use of metal detectors in county parks. By way of example, the state prohibits the operation or use of metal detectors in state parks. The exception to not operating or using metal detectors in county parks would be if the operator or user had contracted with the Antiquities Committee for discovery and scientific investigation or obtained a permit from the Antiquities Committee for survey and discovery, excavation, restoration, demolition, or study.



By allowing the conduct of metal detecting to continue on park grounds we risk legal litigation and many other potential pitfalls with the THC should an existing registered archaeology site get pillaged or a potential site be uncovered by amateur archaeologists or metal detectors. Currently there are registered sites within our park grounds. They are not made public for obvious reasons. Many other potential sites exist within park owned lands, yet to be discovered, and thus items that are removed today could potentially provide missing facts for future archaeologists. As we can not discriminate nor continuously monitor any one person’s intent involving metal detection discoveries within our parks, we have discontinued allowing the practice altogether within Harris County Precinct 4 Parklands. We appreciate your cooperation in this matter.

I too have had the Exact Same form letter, word for word sent to me from Mr. Johnston.
If you look close, the law says "The County May" prohibit the use of metal detectors, so it's a County Official decision. Friend of a friend, doin' a bud a favor kind of thing. I'd bet theres money in there somewhere.....

Keep safe

 

[Dimeman]

Since this Precinct doesn't have the "No Metal Detector Use" policy posted AT any of the parks, or ON the City's website, and NO mention of a "see reference" toward the Precinct 4 website,
I emailed the county commisioner of the Harris County Precinct 4, and also, the park administrator and told him as one of many detectorists that are in my area, I should be able to use the park areas to pursue MY hobby, just as joggers, dog walkers, swimmers, tennis players, people who play baseball, basketball, and soccer all use the parks for their recreational time, and that the policy of no metal detector use in the park areas is unfair. ( I know............ it was an incredibly loooong sentence)



While detecting I am getting excercise swinging the detector,and bending down and up to retrieve the items that I find.
I mentioned many of the harmful items that I have found in parks, have been found in the childrens playground area of the park.
We as detectorists help keep the park clean from many trash items and harmful objects that are visable on top of the ground, as well as in the ground, that we remove from the park area.
And we do this with NO charge to the city or county, only for the excercise and the few coins that we may find while detecting.

Maybe I will get some kind of reply................... maybe I won't.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Dimeman, good luck. thanx for your effort!

 

[Dimeman]

Since this Precinct doesn't have the "No Metal Detector Use" policy posted AT any of the parks, or ON the City's website, and NO mention of a "see reference" toward the Precinct 4 website,
I emailed the county commisioner of the Harris County Precinct 4, and also, the park administrator and told him as one of many detectorists that are in my area, I should be able to use the park areas to pursue MY hobby, just as joggers, dog walkers, swimmers, tennis players, people who play baseball, basketball, and soccer all use the parks for their recreational time, and that the policy of no metal detector use in the park areas is unfair. ( I know............ it was an incredibly loooong sentence)



While detecting I am getting excercise swinging the detector,and bending down and up to retrieve the items that I find.
I mentioned many of the harmful items that I have found in parks, have been found in the childrens playground area of the park.
We as detectorists help keep the park clean from many trash items and harmful objects that are visable on top of the ground, as well as in the ground, that we remove from the park area.
And we do this with NO charge to the city or county, only for the excercise and the few coins that we may find while detecting.

Maybe I will get some kind of reply................... maybe I won't.

I just recieved an email in return to the one I had sent the County Park Administrater,and also the County Precinct Commissioner......... it is the same exact form letter HotTexas posted in the start of this thread and the same exact one Rudy2003 got also and posted.

They don't even have the common courtesy to add a personal addition or note to it.