Attention Metal Detector Manufacturers - The Future Design

[Chiltepin]

First off I am a retired IT Director, I spent many years publicly speaking to end users
about emerging technologies. One was before the smart phone, explaining that it
was easier to make a computer emulate a phone than to put a computer inside a phone.
Those were the days of the Palm treo , and Microsoft made the Pocket PC.

Here we go. "The Revolutionary Concept"

Make a metal detector that you "Dock a Smartphone onto.

Hire some coders to make an application for a smartphone /metal detector to take advantage
of the "Computing" power of current phones. Modern day smartphones have a touchscreen,
are water proof (or can be water proofed using a case), GPS, headphone jack, internal batteries.
Voice commands, Voice prompts, etc

Imagine a hobbyist being able to pin a GPS location on your Metal detecting software map in
your application.

Smartphones do have a disadvantage, the 2 different connector standards.
Apples- Lightning connector
and the standard Usb C 3.0 connector

You will open the industry up to more "New Hobbyist" to the metal detecting hobby sales,
as stated almost everyone has a smartphone.

Get rid of the "Cables" make "Snap on" coils. Hobbyist would rave for "quick changes in the field" of
coils and reduce the risk of damaging cables and connectors.

The biggest benefit would be profit , and we know you already make a nice profit.
Software updates are easier to roll out on the network. Fewer components to
manufacture.

Its going to cost you on the R& D side, but would open up more benefits than pitfalls.

It's a Win /Win for the hobbyist and your companies.

Take a look at the Toyota FT-4X concept - yes that's a smartphone docked on the dash.


Thank you,

If anyone has anything else they would like to see please chime in.

 

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[Carl-NC]

Your not seeing the trees through the forest. A smartphone(mobile computer) isn't a metal detector. It stores data
By default. It runs software to make a metal detector work and uses memory by default.
All metal detectors have stored data its called a Rom chip.

Minelab has a patent that gives them exclusive rights to transferring metal detector data to/from any external memory device. Ergo, until that patent gets busted or expires, your concept ain't happening. As GH mentioned, Minelab has sued XP over it, and had also sued White's.

Beyond that, right now the data link to a cell phone just isn't fast enough for real-time processing. Ever run a Minelab Go-Find through the phone app? The latency is terrible. Bluetooth with AptX-LL is just now fast enough to handle audio with good latency. I think trying to pass heaping gobs of raw data to the phone to process is going to add a lot to the problem. As a former employee of White's and current employee of First Texas, I can tell you the detector companies have considered this approach and even played with some ideas. But for now, a dedicated processor running a real-time embedded OS is the right solution. Maybe one day.

 

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[Tom_in_CA]

Carl, your posts are always a breath of fresh air. Thanx.

 

[sprailroad]

Way over my head fella's, I'm just a simple guy. Detecting for me has been a many year hobby, not a vocation. There has been many great improvements over the years, yes, but one thing remains the same, the operator. Given the amount of trash we dig, your either a "Detector" guy or not, no matter what any machine offers. Smart phone apps., data flowing over the screen, analyzing information, satellite GPS, I just like getting out there to swing a coil, I really do not want to stand there and analyze reams of information flowing across a screen, there's no enjoyment in that for me. For the guys that are Tech. savvy to the extreme, I think it's great, but you still have to go out and detect, and still need to get down to dig. Again, I'm just a simple guy, and as the saying goes, "Ignorance is bliss", well......I'm a blissful guy. I'm going out today and just "listen" to the tones, and hope that "Today's the day".

 

[digger460]

Way over my head fella's, I'm just a simple guy. Detecting for me has been a many year hobby, not a vocation. There has been many great improvements over the years, yes, but one thing remains the same, the operator. Given the amount of trash we dig, your either a "Detector" guy or not, no matter what any machine offers. Smart phone apps., data flowing over the screen, analyzing information, satellite GPS, I just like getting out there to swing a coil, I really do not want to stand there and analyze reams of information flowing across a screen, there's no enjoyment in that for me. For the guys that are Tech. savvy to the extreme, I think it's great, but you still have to go out and detect, and still need to get down to dig. Again, I'm just a simple guy, and as the saying goes, "Ignorance is bliss", well......I'm a blissful guy. I'm going out today and just "listen" to the tones, and hope that "Today's the day".

I'm with ya! I go out to get away from smartphone mania. And as far as more technology to know what your digging before you dig, you can have it. IMO, we've got enough tech.. Plenty of outstanding finds with what we have. Tech just makes you lazier. Learn your machine and enjoy the outdoors. Why don't you just put a bluetooth coil on a drone. Then you could detect in your comfy recliner, and could also keep up with all the useless gossip on your dumbphone.

Done venting

 

[Stretch Da Truth]

sprailroad & digger460 have good posts that pretty much sum up what I was thinking.

I am at a desk, on a pc, talking on the phone all day long.
I go detecting to get some exercise, get some fresh air and to leave the bloddy phone off!

 

[Tpmetal]

don't forget a gyroscopic beer holder ( I detest shaken beer)

thats why we make it a beer helmet and wireless headphones combo. Hands free!

 

[bigscoop]

But we don't really need more bells and whistles. None of that stuff really helps at the working end of the machine. I don't want another game pod, or virtual reality toy, and I sure as hell don't want text messages and updates while I'm hunting.....lol

 

[seekerGH]

Your not seeing the trees through the forest. A smartphone(mobile computer) isn't a metal detector.

Read the patent. There are plenty of Android programs with gauss detectors, you just have the program look to a remote coil. I really doubt the program would optimize the internals of a cell phone like an actual detector, and are actually far more expensive. https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.keuwl.gaussmeter&hl=en

I want a wireless AR heads up display.

This would certainly violate the patent, as Deus found out.

ROM storage? Looks like you are dating yourself.

 

[Jason in Enid]

I don't see it happening any time soon. Many participants in this hobby use an older Android or IOS phone that is not running the latest version. The MD manufacturers would need stay on top of multiple versions of phones and operating system updates to make sure no user was alienated.

Oh look...my phone just updated to X version...now my detector does not work until the MD company updates to the latest version as well.

I would not think it was an avenue they would want to investigate - seeing as how many detectors are still using grey LCD setups - yet alone touch screens with updates.

exactly the reason we dont need or want this! It is so incredibly annoying to have an often used app fail to work after the OS updates. Some times it takes weeks before the app developer can get the fixes made and released. Can you imagine going to detect and find your "whites detecting app" no longer working correctly? so much for your beach hunting vacation trip!

 

[Chiltepin]

Read the patent. There are plenty of Android programs with gauss detectors, you just have the program look to a remote coil. I really doubt the program would optimize the internals of a cell phone like an actual detector, and are actually far more expensive. https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.keuwl.gaussmeter&hl=en

This would certainly violate the patent, as Deus found out.

ROM storage? Looks like you are dating yourself.

SeekerGH, Your a funny guy me dating myslelf that was a joke right? Your fancy computer device bios relies on Rom every time it boots up, your microwave with that popcorn button, Yup rom,
those fancy buttons that do something on your metal detector, yup Rom. EPROM or EEPROM

And for the rest of you that don't want to be bothered by technology such as a mobile phone. Get Rid of it - I have over 100,000 hours of On-Call time logged. I got rid of my cell phone 6 years ago.
Best thing I ever did, I have Phone PTSD I get angry when I hear a phone ring, carried a Pager- Pager/Mobile phone- Mobile phone for 20 years waiting for it to ring day or night. All to fix someones problems.

Minelab has a patent that gives them exclusive rights to transferring metal detector data to/from any external memory device. Ergo, until that patent gets busted or expires, your concept ain't happening. As GH mentioned, Minelab has sued XP over it, and had also sued White's.

Beyond that, right now the data link to a cell phone just isn't fast enough for real-time processing. Ever run a Minelab Go-Find through the phone app? The latency is terrible. Bluetooth with AptX-LL is just now fast enough to handle audio with good latency. I think trying to pass heaping gobs of raw data to the phone to process is going to add a lot to the problem. As a former employee of White's and current employee of First Texas, I can tell you the detector companies have considered this approach and even played with some ideas. But for now, a dedicated processor running a real-time embedded OS is the right solution. Maybe one day.

And what "Open Source" embedded OS would that be? and a dedicated "Arm" chip.? Are you still under a "NDA"?

Bluetooth 5.0 the lag is gone(been gone since 4.0 allowed for multiple connections)- debut was April 2017 in a Samsung Galaxy 8

Bluetooth 5 provides, for BLE, options that can double the speed (2 Mbit/s burst) at the expense of range, or up to a fourfold the range at the expense of data rate, and eightfold the data broadcasting capacity of transmissions, by increasing the packet lengths. The increase in transmissions could be important for Internet of Things devices, where many nodes connect throughout a whole house. Bluetooth 5 adds functionality for connectionless services such as location-relevant navigation of low-energy Bluetooth connections.

I'm not out of the Industry, I been getting hammered by past clients dealing with KRACK. Little less than 10 years ago DARPA held and X Prize competition for a offroad self driving vehicle. Now we are inundated
by self driving Tech. OTR trucking has about 8 years left and will all but be automated.( The Exception will be Hazardous Cargo that requires armed drivers)

Times change this isn't the "more things change the more they stay the same" Electric Power production- you still boil water, create steam , turn a turbine (Coal , Nuclear, etc)

 

[Jason in Enid]

And for the rest of you that don't want to be bothered by technology such as a mobile phone. Get Rid of it -

You seem angry that people arent receptive to your idea. I doubt many members here have anything negative about phones, its the attempt at integration between a phone and metal detecting we dont like. You also seem to have intentionally ignored the flaw with OS updates playing with your detecting app.

 

[seekerGH]

My comment on dating yourself with ROM is that due to the lower speed of ROM and the bottlenecks on processing, it is not really used any more, and definately not used to store the program. (MSFT tried this in 1985 with Windows, can you imagine Win95 with little update capability ) Forget the Eprom disasters....that is like trying to promote a serial port.

RAM is much faster, so the programs are loaded into RAM, not ROM. RAM is far more expandible than ROM as well. Even the basics are copied from ROM to RAM for speed and utilization by other processors such as video, etc.

While it may be good to have the basic functions of the device on ROM, (because it will remain on power off) programs are not stored there, and programs in use are used from RAM not ROM..In addition, ROM leaves no room for updates.

that is why quoting ROM is like promoting a serial port, well, so 1980's....

 

[Tom_in_CA]

.... the lower speed of ROM .....

SeekerGH: All the wonderful advancements of electronics and computers, in the last 30 yrs, are all just a function of "faster and smaller". There is still the fundamental laws of physics , that no amount of "faster and smaller" overcomes. Hence the improvements on metal detectors is just refinements of abilities we already have (ie.: very slight improvements, and just whistles and bells).

 

[seekerGH]

Sorry, I do not agree. Advancements have been made other than bells and whistles, and not simply processing speed.

In the context of the thread, I am really not sure what your point is.

There have been many advances made in the frequency response and determination of material and depth, vs simply a tone on detection of a magnetic variance.

 

[bigscoop]

I guess my question, then, is this. How is any of this going to advance depth, target separation, sensitivity, and target identification? All of this extra interfacing and apps, thus far, has just proven to be hunter entertainment additions with no real additional performance at the working end. So how is your proposal going to make noticeable performance advancements in these areas, the only ones that really matter?

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Sorry, I do not agree. Advancements have been made other than bells and whistles, and not simply processing speed.

In the context of the thread, I am really not sure what your point is.

There have been many advances made in the frequency response and determination of material and depth, vs simply a tone on detection of a magnetic variance.

Seeker, it seemed like your post # 32 was alluding to various computer/electronic was relating to this post about "future detectors", so I thought you were musing that advances in the tech you were listing, should affect detectors. Maybe I misunderstood .

I got started in the mid 1970s. In the era of all-metal TR's (77b, 66TR, etc..). Heck, there was even a guy sporting a BFO still in our area at that time. By by '76 or '77-ish, we started to see TR discriminators (groundog, 5000d, etc...) take the market. And soon ... you were a dinosaur if you didn't get one. But then by '79 and '80-ish, we started seeing motion discriminators (6000d, red baron, etc...) take the market. Again you were a dinosaur if you didn't make the change. By '83 and '84, we started seeing TID machines (Teknetics, 6000 series II and III) hit the market. Again, you had to switch.

So you see that in the 15-or-so year period between the mid 1970s, to the early 1990s, it seemed that every 2 to 5 yrs, a major change came along that left everything else in the dust. We're talking noticeable difference in depth, ability in ground, TID, etc....

Contrast that to the last 15 yrs, and you'll see hardly any improvements. You can have a 15 yr. old machine now (Explorer, cz6, etc...) and compete quite nicely. See ?