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Thread: Thought I would share this

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  1. #1
    Charter Member
    us
    Chief

    Oct 2018
    Pensacola, FL
    White's TreasurePro
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    Thought I would share this

    I was surfing around as I am working on a project that is within a Federal National Forest area, and came across this to share with all of you:

    https://www.fs.usda.gov/Internet/FSE...rdb5261774.pdf

    What do you think? Definitely some good info to have on hand. If you do not want to click the link, here is the verbiage:

    MINERAL, ROCK COLLECTING AND METAL DETECTING ON THE
    NATIONAL FORESTS

    It is Forest Service policy that the recreational use of metal detectors and the collection of
    rocks and mineral samples are allowed on the National Forests. Generally, most of the
    National Forests are open to recreational mineral and rock collecting, gold panning and
    prospecting using a metal detector. This low impact, casual activity usually does not
    require any authorization.

    On some eastern Forests gold panning does require a letter of authorization due to the
    high clay content of the soils. It is always wise to check with the local District Ranger if
    you have questions. Some wilderness areas are closed to gold panning and metal
    detecting.

    Metal detecting is a legitimate means of locating gold or other mineral specimens and can
    be an effective prospecting tool for locating larger mineral deposits. This activity can also
    be conducted as a recreational activity locating lost coins, jewelry or other incidental
    metallic items of little historical value. Prospecting using a metal detector can be
    conducted under the General Mining Laws and is covered under the Forest Service 36
    CFR 228A locatable mineral regulations for lands open to mineral entry. Metal detecting
    for treasure trove or lost items such as coins and jewelry is managed as a non mineralsrelated
    recreation activity.

    Metal detecting is a low surface impact activity that involves digging small holes rarely
    more than six inches deep. Normally, metal detecting does not require a notice of intent
    or written authorization since it only involves searching for and occasionally removing
    small rock samples or mineral specimens (36 CFR 228.4(a)).

    Metal detectors may be used on public land in areas that do not contain or would not
    reasonably be expected to contain archaeological or historical resources. Normally,
    developed campgrounds, swimming beaches, and other developed recreation sites are
    open to recreational metal detecting unless there are archaeological or historical resources
    present. In such cases, forest supervisors are authorized to close the area to metal
    detecting and the closure would be posted at the site. Such closure notices are not always
    practical in undeveloped areas, and federal agencies have not identified every
    archaeological site on public lands. It is possible; therefore, that you may encounter such
    archaeological remains that have not yet been documented or an area that is not closed
    even though it does indeed contain such remains. Archaeological remains on public land
    are protected under law. If you were to discover such remains, you should leave them
    undisturbed and notify a FS office.

    The purpose of the restrictions to metal detecting on public lands is to protect historical
    remains. The Code of Federal Regulations, (36 CFR 261.9) states, "The following are
    prohibited: (g) Digging in, excavating, disturbing, injuring, destroying, or in any way
    damaging any prehistoric, historic, or archaeological resources, structure, site, artifact, or
    property. (h) Removing any prehistoric, historic, or archaeological resources, structure,
    site, artifact, property." The Archaeological Resources Protection Act (ARPA, 16
    U.S.C. 470cc also prohibits these activities, stating, "No person may excavate, remove,
    damage, or otherwise alter or deface or attempt to excavate, remove, damage or otherwise
    alter or deface any archaeological resources located on public lands or Indian lands
    unless such activity is pursuant to a permit...” ARPA exempts the collection of coins for
    personal use if the coins are not in an archaeological context. In some cases, historically
    significant coins and other metallic artifacts may be part of an historical-period
    archaeological site, in which case they would be considered archaeological resources and
    are protected under law. These laws apply to all National Forest System land and do not
    vary from state to state.

    Four forms of metal detector use are recognized.

    1. Searching for treasure trove: Treasure trove is defined as money, gems, or
    precious metals in the form of coin, plate, or bullion that has been deliberately
    hidden with the intention of recovering it later. This activity requires a Special
    Use Permit under The Act of June 4, 1897 (16 U.S.C. 551). Forest Service
    Manual 2724.4 states “allow persons to search for buried treasure on National
    Forest System lands, but protect the rights of the public regarding ownership of or
    claims on any recovered property.”

    2. Prospecting: Using a metal detector to locate gold or other mineral deposits is an
    allowed activity under the General Mining Laws and is subject to the 36 CFR
    228A regulations. A Notice of Intent (36 CFR 228.4(a)) is normally not required
    for prospecting using a metal detector. A Notice of Intent (NOI) is required for
    any prospecting which might cause disturbance of surface resources. A plan of
    operation is required for any prospecting that will likely cause significant
    disturbance of surface resources. Normal metal detecting does not cause surface
    impacts that require either a NOI or a Plan of Operation. People who use metal
    detectors for prospecting should bear in mind that many of the mineralized lands
    within the National Forests and open to mineral entry have been “claimed” by
    others who have sole right to prospect and develop the mineral resources found on
    the mining claim. A search of County and Bureau of Land Management records
    should be made prior to prospecting to determine if an area has been claimed.
    Normally, any gold found can be removed and kept. If the removal of the gold,
    rocks, or minerals might cause disturbance of surface resources, beyond digging a
    small shallow hole, a NOI may be required.

    3. Searching for historic or prehistoric artifacts: Using a metal detector to locate
    archaeological or historical remains is subject to the Antiquities Act of 1906 and
    the Archeological Resources Protection Act of 1979 (ARPA) as amended and
    requires a special use permit. Such permits are granted for scientific research
    only, however, there are many ways to get involved with organized, scientific
    research. See below for ways to use metal detectors for this purpose under
    sanctioned public archaeology programs.

    4. Recreational pursuits: The most common form of metal detector use is searching
    for gold nuggets, lost coins, jewelry, and incidental metal items having no
    historical value. Such use is common in developed campgrounds, swimming
    areas, and picnic areas and requires no permit. However, one must assume
    personal responsibility to notice if the area may indeed contain archaeological or
    historical resources and if it does, cease metal detecting and notify a Forest
    Service office. Not doing so may result in prosecution under the Code of Federal
    Regulations or ARPA.

    Metal detecting on the National Forests is recognized as a legitimate prospecting method
    under the General Mining Laws and also as a recreational activity for the casual
    collection of rocks and minerals. This policy does not permit the use of metal detectors in
    or around known or undiscovered cultural or historic sites in order to protect our
    valuable, non-renewable historical resources. However, recognizing the universal
    interest in archaeology and history and the vast public knowledge of such resources, the
    USDA Forest Service sponsors a public archaeology program through which metal
    detector enthusiasts and others can help. Passport In Time (PIT) is a national program
    inviting the public to work with agency archaeologists on historic preservation projects.
    We have done numerous projects through PIT in cooperation with metal detecting clubs
    and individuals. The cooperation has been beneficial for both the detectorists and
    agency’s archaeologists. Locating archaeological sites becomes a joint endeavor and we
    learn a great deal. If you would like more information on this program, call 1-800-281-
    9176 or visit Passport in Time.

    Mike Doran May 27, 2009

  2. #2
    Charter Member
    us
    Tommy

    Dec 2015
    Ann Arbor
    AT MAX
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    Honorable Mentions (2)
    Sounds better than a No
    Approved TreasureNet Stickers
    .:: $4.00 for 11" X 3" Bumper Sticker ::.
    .:: $2.50 for 1" x 4" Detector Sticker ::.
    (Free Shipping)


    SEE: TreasureNet Bumper Stickers

  3. #3
    Charter Member
    us
    Chief

    Oct 2018
    Pensacola, FL
    White's TreasurePro
    63
    79 times
    All Types Of Treasure Hunting
    It is quite interesting the way people interpret laws, A2, isn't it? I mean, when one actually reads 16 USC Ch. 1B: ARCHAEOLOGICAL RESOURCES PROTECTION, the interpretation that is highly contested and strikes most treasure hunters these days is the definition of 'archaeological resources'. Here is what the Code says:

    §470bb. Definitions
    As used in this chapter—

    (1) The term "archaeological resource" means any material remains of past human life or activities which are of archaeological interest, as determined under uniform regulations promulgated pursuant to this chapter. Such regulations containing such determination shall include, but not be limited to: pottery, basketry, bottles, weapons, weapon projectiles, tools, structures or portions of structures, pit houses, rock paintings, rock carvings, intaglios, graves, human skeletal materials, or any portion or piece of any of the foregoing items. Nonfossilized and fossilized paleontological specimens, or any portion or piece thereof, shall not be considered archaeological resources, under the regulations under this paragraph, unless found in archaeological context. No item shall be treated as an archaeological resource under regulations under this paragraph unless such item is at least 100 years of age.

    As a layman (such as you and I) would see in this paragraph, gold or any mention thereof is not mentioned. However, later in the Code, it is.

    §470kk. Savings provisions
    (a) Mining, mineral leasing, reclamation, and other multiple uses
    Nothing in this chapter shall be construed to repeal, modify, or impose additional restrictions on the activities permitted under existing laws and authorities relating to mining, mineral leasing, reclamation, and other multiple uses of the public lands.

    (b) Private collections
    Nothing in this chapter applies to, or requires a permit for, the collection for private purposes of any rock, coin, bullet, or mineral which is not an archaeological resource, as determined under uniform regulations promulgated under section 470bb(1) of this title.

    (c) Lands within chapter
    Nothing in this chapter shall be construed to affect any land other than public land or Indian land or to affect the lawful recovery, collection, or sale of archaeological resources from land other than public land or Indian land.

    (Pub. L. 96–95, §12, Oct. 31, 1979, 93 Stat. 728.)

    So, as to follow 470bb(1), the definition of 'archaeological resource' does not include the term "coin". Hope we have some lawyers on here to help with this! If so, what are your thoughts

  4. #4

    Feb 2017
    Santa Barbara,Ca
    Bounty Hunter Prospector Fisher CZ6A
    200
    966 times
    Metal Detecting
    Dated May 27 , 2009. Almost 10 years old . What/has changed ?
    sprailroad likes this.

  5. #5
    Charter Member
    us
    Chief

    Oct 2018
    Pensacola, FL
    White's TreasurePro
    63
    79 times
    All Types Of Treasure Hunting
    Quote Originally Posted by bravobob View Post
    Dated May 27 , 2009. Almost 10 years old . What/has changed ?
    Not much according to this link:
    https://www.fs.usda.gov/detail/r3/re...fsbdev3_022266

  6. #6

    Feb 2017
    Santa Barbara,Ca
    Bounty Hunter Prospector Fisher CZ6A
    200
    966 times
    Metal Detecting
    Quote Originally Posted by CoilTek3 View Post
    That link is directed at the collecting of rocks and minerals.
    The things that stick out to me is ,

    No permit or notification is required for collecting if the following applies:
    Collecting of samples is on the surface (no digging with hand tools or mechanized equipment).
    Collection is for personal use and esthetic values (cannot be sold or bartered).
    For the following activities, please contact the Forest Service to discuss permitting or authorization:
    [Image] Fossil imprint
    Activity that does involve digging with hand tools or mechanized earth-moving equipment, including bobcats, suction dredges, ‘high banking’ or dry washing equipment.
    Commercial activities including collecting mineral or fossil >specimens for re-sale.
    Removal of more than insignificant amounts1/ of landscape rock.

    I read that as , eyeball finds ok , if you want to dig you need to notify/ask permission.

    The only remark about metal detecting is the very last paragraph, it says

    "3/ Searching for artifacts (man made objects) with metal detectors is discouraged, as ANY ancient or historical artifacts found may not be removed from federal lands, such as old coins, metal implements, or utensils.

    You can detect (is discouraged) , you just cant take your finds.
    Last edited by bravobob; Nov 23, 2018 at 10:03 PM.
    Hawks88 likes this.

  7. #7
    us
    Aug 2015
    Raleigh, NC
    Garrett Ace350, NOX 800
    48
    29 times
    All Types Of Treasure Hunting
    Don't think I could afford to win that case in court.

  8. #8
    Charter Member
    us
    Chief

    Oct 2018
    Pensacola, FL
    White's TreasurePro
    63
    79 times
    All Types Of Treasure Hunting
    Quote Originally Posted by bravobob View Post
    That link is directed at the collecting of rocks and minerals.
    The things that stick out to me is ,

    No permit or notification is required for collecting if the following applies:
    Collecting of samples is on the surface (no digging with hand tools or mechanized equipment).
    Collection is for personal use and esthetic values (cannot be sold or bartered).
    For the following activities, please contact the Forest Service to discuss permitting or authorization:
    [Image] Fossil imprint
    Activity that does involve digging with hand tools or mechanized earth-moving equipment, including bobcats, suction dredges, ‘high banking’ or dry washing equipment.
    Commercial activities including collecting mineral or fossil >specimens for re-sale.
    Removal of more than insignificant amounts1/ of landscape rock.

    I read that as , eyeball finds ok , if you want to dig you need to notify/ask permission.

    The only remark about metal detecting is the very last paragraph, it says

    "3/ Searching for artifacts (man made objects) with metal detectors is discouraged, as ANY ancient or historical artifacts found may not be removed from federal lands, such as old coins, metal implements, or utensils.

    You can detect (is discouraged) , you just cant take your finds.
    The part I am trying to state, is that people are reading just a single line. Now, if you look at where the "3/" paragraph is annotated above (the line you copied), you will see this:

    What types of recreational rock and mineral collecting are allowed on the National Forests?

    Collection of small amounts 1/ of widespread, low-value, relatively common minerals and stones (common quartz crystals, agate, obsidian) for noncommercial use.
    Hobby mining activities; such as recreational gold panning or use of metal detectors 3/ to prospect for gold nuggets and other naturally occurring metals.

    It's like reading a book if you think about it, bravobob, relative information can be pulled from a book out of context to be made to say one thing - when in fact it means another. I would still consider to take this to a lawyer and see what they say. You never know!
    sprailroad likes this.

  9. #9

    Feb 2017
    Santa Barbara,Ca
    Bounty Hunter Prospector Fisher CZ6A
    200
    966 times
    Metal Detecting
    You have to look at each line individually , that's how lawyers read it.
    There's a big difference ( in the governments eyes) between "prospecting" for gold nuggets and other naturally occurring metals and "Recreational metal detecting" for "other than gold nuggets and other naturally occurring metals".


    "Metal detecting is a legitimate means of locating gold or other mineral specimens and can
    be an effective prospecting tool for locating larger mineral deposits. This activity can also
    be conducted as a recreational activity locating lost coins, jewelry or other incidental
    metallic items of little historical value. Prospecting using a metal detector can be
    conducted under the General Mining Laws and is covered under the Forest Service 36
    CFR 228A locatable mineral regulations for lands open to mineral entry. Metal detecting
    for treasure trove or lost items such as coins and jewelry is managed as a non minerals related
    recreation activity".

    "Prospecting" for gold nuggets and other naturally occurring metals is regulated ( General Mining Laws and is covered under the Forest Service 36 CFR 228A ) , "Recreational metal detecting" for other than "gold nuggets and other naturally occurring metals " is not (kind of , see below).

    It still says,

    3/ Searching for artifacts (man made objects) with metal detectors is discouraged, as ANY ancient or historical artifacts found may not be removed from federal lands, such as old coins, metal implements, or utensils.

    "May not be removed from federal lands, such as old coins, metal implements, or utensils".

    Now i do understand were talking about the Federal Government.
    The right hand doesn't know what the left hand is doing and has its head up its ass !

    You don't have enough $$$ to fight the Fed's in court. You MIGHT win but at what cost ?
    Last edited by bravobob; Nov 24, 2018 at 01:45 PM.

  10. #10
    Charter Member
    us
    Chief

    Oct 2018
    Pensacola, FL
    White's TreasurePro
    63
    79 times
    All Types Of Treasure Hunting
    Quote Originally Posted by bravobob View Post
    You have to look at each line individually , that's how lawyers read it.
    There's a big difference ( in the governments eyes) between "prospecting" for gold nuggets and other naturally occurring metals and "Recreational metal detecting" for "other than gold nuggets and other naturally occurring metals".


    "Metal detecting is a legitimate means of locating gold or other mineral specimens and can
    be an effective prospecting tool for locating larger mineral deposits. This activity can also
    be conducted as a recreational activity locating lost coins, jewelry or other incidental
    metallic items of little historical value. Prospecting using a metal detector can be
    conducted under the General Mining Laws and is covered under the Forest Service 36
    CFR 228A locatable mineral regulations for lands open to mineral entry. Metal detecting
    for treasure trove or lost items such as coins and jewelry is managed as a non minerals related
    recreation activity".

    "Prospecting" for gold nuggets and other naturally occurring metals is regulated ( General Mining Laws and is covered under the Forest Service 36 CFR 228A ) , "Recreational metal detecting" for other than "gold nuggets and other naturally occurring metals " is not (kind of , see below).

    It still says,

    3/ Searching for artifacts (man made objects) with metal detectors is discouraged, as ANY ancient or historical artifacts found may not be removed from federal lands, such as old coins, metal implements, or utensils.

    "May not be removed from federal lands, such as old coins, metal implements, or utensils".

    Now i do understand were talking about the Federal Government.
    The right hand doesn't know what the left hand is doing and has its head up its ass !

    You don't have enough $$$ to fight the Fed's in court. You MIGHT win but at what cost ?
    I'm an Army Warrant Officer...I find loop holes in regulations. Just a cool thought, though, to think that there is always the probability.
    T.C. likes this.

  11. #11
    us
    Apr 2006
    Jasper Texas
    -Garrett AT-PRO, Ace 250&350
    190
    51 times
    All Types Of Treasure Hunting
    Any new response on this?
    Pencil Perfect

  12. #12

    Mar 2007
    Salinas, CA
    Explorer II, Compass 77b, Tesoro shadow X2
    12,438
    8743 times
    Banner Finds (4)
    Gentlemen, I'm a bit late to this thread, but here goes :

    That specific allowance has circulated for a long time on md'ing forums. And so too is there an express allowance (albeit similarly muddled with double talk) for BLM as well. These links have circulated at various times on md'ing forums . Thus the old addage of "all federal land is off-limits to md'ing" is not correct. Oh ... sure ... it may be subject to the AGE of something you find . Ie.: don't find an object over 50 yrs. old (how good is your math ?). Or "No destruction of foilage or rocks" (construed as "don't dig" ?). Or that your actions may fall under "harvest & remove", blah blah blah. Yet, on the other hand ..... AN EXPRESS ALLOWANCE.

    But sure enough, whenever these links get floated, as is here, someone is sure to point out the ancillary verbiage. Ie.: "some zones might require authorization from the kiosk", or "subject to ARPA age rule", or "can't dig", or "can't remove", blah blah. To which I would say: SO TOO can every single one of those apply to every single speck of public land everywhere. Yup, even the most innocuous city park sand box.

    For example, the "excavate" or "dig" type language: I guarantee you that similar language (deface/alter) exists on every park, school, forest, beach, etc.... of every/any entity. But .... seriously now: If you leave no trace of your presence (cover and fluff), then presto: You haven't alterED or defacED anything. Eh?

    And as for taking/removing/harvesting: Yup, same thing: That too exists, in some form of wording, on every speck of land. So that no numbskull thinks he can take home the park benches, or start harvesting the sand or sod for commercial sale, etc.... Could such things be construed to apply to a singular coin ? SURE : Just be sure to ask a bunch of bored desk jockeys, who will in turn pass on your "pressing question" to a purist archaeologist, and sure... you will find someone to say it applies. In the same way that : If you asked enough people "can I pick my own nose?", you will find someone to tell you "no".

    And as for the suggestion to check in at each kiosk, I chuckle at that one. That was practically par-for-the-course passed-out answer, when the FMDAC tried to assemble their state-by-state state-park list decades ago. When they sent their letter of inquiry to all 50 states top dog state-park spokespersons, this "safe" was a recurring theme. Eg.: "check at each kiosk" (when in fact, if you look closely, it's nothing more than "commentary", not "law or rule"). Since, of course, some spots might be sensitive historical theme. While others are just "middle of nowhere". So rather than say "yes" or "no", they just say "with permission from each local person". Trouble is, then it just becomes a vicious circle of self-fulfilling safe loop "no's", when this FAQ perpetually lands on the desks of perplexed far away rangers . Who no doubt pass the "pressing question" up the chain to an archie.

    Hence, just take this cotton picken "yes" link text answer, and run with it. Just avoid obvious historic sensitive monuments, archie conventions, etc.. And go find that wedding ring your wife lost their last week. Or meteorites or nuggets that are outside of ARPA. No need to make it complicated. Why argue with a yes ?
    Metal detecting is my one worldy vice!

  13. #13
    Charter Member
    us
    Chief

    Oct 2018
    Pensacola, FL
    White's TreasurePro
    63
    79 times
    All Types Of Treasure Hunting
    Quote Originally Posted by Tom_in_CA View Post
    Gentlemen, I'm a bit late to this thread, but here goes :

    That specific allowance has circulated for a long time on md'ing forums. And so too is there an express allowance (albeit similarly muddled with double talk) for BLM as well. These links have circulated at various times on md'ing forums . Thus the old addage of "all federal land is off-limits to md'ing" is not correct. Oh ... sure ... it may be subject to the AGE of something you find . Ie.: don't find an object over 50 yrs. old (how good is your math ?). Or "No destruction of foilage or rocks" (construed as "don't dig" ?). Or that your actions may fall under "harvest & remove", blah blah blah. Yet, on the other hand ..... AN EXPRESS ALLOWANCE.

    But sure enough, whenever these links get floated, as is here, someone is sure to point out the ancillary verbiage. Ie.: "some zones might require authorization from the kiosk", or "subject to ARPA age rule", or "can't dig", or "can't remove", blah blah. To which I would say: SO TOO can every single one of those apply to every single speck of public land everywhere. Yup, even the most innocuous city park sand box.

    For example, the "excavate" or "dig" type language: I guarantee you that similar language (deface/alter) exists on every park, school, forest, beach, etc.... of every/any entity. But .... seriously now: If you leave no trace of your presence (cover and fluff), then presto: You haven't alterED or defacED anything. Eh?

    And as for taking/removing/harvesting: Yup, same thing: That too exists, in some form of wording, on every speck of land. So that no numbskull thinks he can take home the park benches, or start harvesting the sand or sod for commercial sale, etc.... Could such things be construed to apply to a singular coin ? SURE : Just be sure to ask a bunch of bored desk jockeys, who will in turn pass on your "pressing question" to a purist archaeologist, and sure... you will find someone to say it applies. In the same way that : If you asked enough people "can I pick my own nose?", you will find someone to tell you "no".

    And as for the suggestion to check in at each kiosk, I chuckle at that one. That was practically par-for-the-course passed-out answer, when the FMDAC tried to assemble their state-by-state state-park list decades ago. When they sent their letter of inquiry to all 50 states top dog state-park spokespersons, this "safe" was a recurring theme. Eg.: "check at each kiosk" (when in fact, if you look closely, it's nothing more than "commentary", not "law or rule"). Since, of course, some spots might be sensitive historical theme. While others are just "middle of nowhere". So rather than say "yes" or "no", they just say "with permission from each local person". Trouble is, then it just becomes a vicious circle of self-fulfilling safe loop "no's", when this FAQ perpetually lands on the desks of perplexed far away rangers . Who no doubt pass the "pressing question" up the chain to an archie.

    Hence, just take this cotton picken "yes" link text answer, and run with it. Just avoid obvious historic sensitive monuments, archie conventions, etc.. And go find that wedding ring your wife lost their last week. Or meteorites or nuggets that are outside of ARPA. No need to make it complicated. Why argue with a yes ?
    You are now an 'honorary Army Warrant Officer'. lol

 

 

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