Are YOU a Thief?

[Michigan Badger]

A "thief" is: "A criminal who takes property belonging to someone else with the intention of keeping it or selling it" (WordWeb)

I hunt private property with permission. Many today simply do research and hit the hot spots with no thought of who owns the property. Here's an article that recently appeared in a "free" Michigan paper. I've copied a part for you to read. Beware!

 

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[nc-joe]

Who is the State in State owned property? Where did they get the money to "purchase" this property? Who pays the taxes on this property? Who pays to maintain this property? Who benefits from the timber companies working this property? why can only certain archiologists dig at certain sites? can you steal something no one ever knew existed?

Property is generally deemed to have been lost if it is found in a place where the true owner likely did not intend to set it down, and where it is not likely to be found by the true owner. At common law, the finder of a lost item could claim the right to possess the item against any other person in the world except the true owner. See Armory v. Delamirie, 1 Strange 505 (King’s Bench, 1722).

Bear in mind that the underlying policy goals to these distinctions are to (hopefully) see that the property is returned to its true original owner, or "title owner." Most jurisdictions have now enacted statutes requiring that the finder of lost property must turn it in to the proper authorities; if the true owner does not arrive to claim the property within a certain period of time, the property is returned to the finder as their own.

There are a litany of often confusing common law exceptions to the rule that the first finder of lost property has a superior claim of right over any other person in the world except the true original owner. For example, as a general exception, trespassers will usually lose superior claim to any lost property they find in the course of their trespassing to the respective landowner. As a corollary to this exception, landowners have superior claim over all finds made within the non-public areas of their property. For example, if a customer finds lost property in the public area of a store, the customer has superior claim to the lost property over that of the store-owner, but if the customer finds the lost property in the non-public area of that store, such in an area marked "Employees Only," the store-owner will have superior claim, as the customer was trespassing when he found it.

So is "state" property "private" or "public". State officials want you to believe it is private, but I think we all know the true answer.

 

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[diggemall]

Lemme see...........

3.8 MILLION acres !?!

at 43,560 sq ft / acre that's about 165,528,000,000 square feet of 'public' land..........

if you assume 1 second per square foot w/ a detector, that's 46 million man-hours (or about 5,250 man-years)

Yup, I expect the state will have all that stuff catalogued and on display by next summer.


Realistically, if I pick up a coin that was dropped yesterday, who's would beef ? Would it really matter if it were a 2007 coin, a 1953 coin, or one minted in 1893 ?

That being the case, then why the big deal if, instead of being dropped yesterday, it was dropped a year ago ? or 10 ? or 100 ?

It's really all the same. By their logic, a coin dropped today becomes an antiquity when ? Once its lain there long enough to lie beneath the surface rather than on it ?

Oh well, we elect the people that pass the laws that govern our lives....................... they MUST be smarter than us, right ?

Diggem'

 

[EasyMoney]

I don't hunt on private property without (written) permission. Word-of-mouth can get you into a lot of trouble.
I don't hunt on government property without (written) permission. For the same reason.
I hunt in rivers, lakes, streams, etc as long as there is no law against it.
Laws were invented because mankind cannot always obey verbal rules by his own volition. We need laws.

I know of no law that says that I cannot operate a metal detector, unless it is making an annoying or disturbing sound to people or animals, or is dangerous somehow. To dig or probe though, is often a voilation of rules and laws, and that is certainly a different situation.

Thieves are thieves, no matter if they use a gun to commit the crime, or use a metal detector to do it. Personally though, I would rather run into a thief using a metal detector than one who is using a gun. I'm glad the canoe was stolen by a thief though, and not by a metal detector. THAT would give me nightmares!

BUT! THE OCEANS, LAKES, STREAMS AND THE BEACHES SHOULD BE USED FOR THE ENJOYMENT OF THE PUBLIC! AND THIS SHOULD INCLUDE THE USE OF METAL DETECTORS TOO, AS LONG AS NOBODY IS DISTURBING A NATIONAL TREASURE OR HARMING ANYTHNG!

If there are national treasures under water, and they need to be retrieved by the government, then the governing body responsible for them should have them retrieved instead of leaving them to rot, as they commonly do.

If you steal a dime, it is as much of a sin or violation as if you stole a Mercedes. The world's western societietal laws were instigated by the Judaic/ Christian religion and not by any government. In fact, there were no laws in the western world prior to that time. These were called "sins", transgressions against God. One sin or one law-breaking is no more or less than another, they are all violations. If you aren't sure of this read this verse in the Bible: Romans 13: verses 1 and 2; Here are parts of it;

"Obey the government, for God has put it there". "There is no government anywhere that God has not placed in power"......................................."the policeman is sent by God to help you".."but if you do something wrong"..."he will have you punished..."..........."Obey the laws then, for two reasons: First to keep from being punished, and second, just because you know you should".

If a coin is laying on public ground it has no owner. If it's on someone else's property it does.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

NC Joe, you hit the nail on the head when you say this: "can you steal something no one ever knew existed?" I know what you're saying. Somehow I don't feel guilty when digging a seated dime that has obviously been there for >100 yrs. No matter WHERE I find it, it's like ..... it didn't exist UNTIL I found it. So who's to be at a financial loss? Who's "missing" it?

Easy Money, you say: "I don't hunt on governement property without (written) permission" Why do you do that? If you're skittish, why not just satisfy yourself that there are no prohibitions to detecting, and, if there is not, just go? I can tell you right now: if I walked into city hall in any city near me, with a contract for them to sign "allowing me to metal detect the sandbox at the park", no one would sign that. It would probably get passed up the chain of command, sent to legal department, raising red flags about holes, treasures, insurance, blah blah blah. Now, if it were illegal (a park that has printed rules to that effect), then perhaps you would need permission. Otherwise, I don't understand why you would need "permission", where it is not specifically disallowed.

 

[EDDE]

Are YOU a Thief?


only when caught.........

 

[cavers5]

Talk about archaeologist thieves...let me tell you a story!

I was a grad student learning about cave archaeology. I had an advisor who: 1. admitted to me that he kept a bag of French coins he found in a cave; 2. constantly tried to get me to access caves on private property, telling me we didn't need to get permission, not to worry about permission, or forget about getting permission; 3. had no qualms about sending me into the nether regions of caves by myself; etc. etc.

I only went into part of the one of the caves by myself once. I had attended the university thinking these people were pros at what they did. Turns out, I was the most experienced caver of the bunch, having caved for years before I attended that university. After awhile, I didn't want anything to do with too many of these people. They were archaeologists and completely unethical.

I struggled to complete my thesis and did it. Then, I presented a paper on my work at a Kentucky conference, several years ago. It still hasn't been published. Why? Well, I was told that my reviewed paper had been mailed twice to me for revisions and had been returned back to them twice via returned mail. Do I believe this b.s.? No. It had been a PhD at UKy that had missed the rock art site that I published about. It was her male partner (I have no idea if they are married) who was ultimately responsible for the reviewed paper getting back to me. When I accosted the man of this, he actually had the audacity (really just lied like a dog) telling me that he would say I was calling to threaten him. He said they would publish it later. Again, did I believe this b.s? I laughed and told the man not to worry about it. Why would I want my work published by such nasty people? They were protecting their high paid jobs because they were the ones who had the state contracts to do the state parks, etc.

Talk about unethical!

Will I be able to prove any of this? I doubt it, although I certainly wish I could! However, I don't have to work or publish with these people.

Now, I am an archaeologist and proud of it. Some rules and laws are good. Others have no common sense and I don't even want to know the idiots that came up with them. They are not important. The important thing is to work to get these laws reasonable and to protect other rights before these CYA'ers (idiot archaeologists) do more damage.

I used to be nice and friendly to these people, but I soon came to realize how unethical they are. So, we don't have to sink to their unethical level, but we have to, here and ever after, play super hardball with these people all the time.

Whenever you see articles like that, it's best to write something in return as quickly as possible, such as returning rings, etc.

It's hard to find time to do these things, but if one detectorist just did one such thing once a year, it would help. Also, on another post, I mentioned site forms. No matter what they say, it absolutely kills most archaeologists to know that they missed a site during their survey, esp. if they are a PhD and you are a "lowly" metal detectorist. Start making note to legislators and the general public about such things. Show your legislators if these state-paid people are not doing their jobs properly.

And remember, some archaeologists are decent with common sense. Sorry for the long post, but wanted you to have an idea what it's like from somebody who has been on both sides of the fence.

Cavers5

 

[bill17042]

What a shame.
Imagine the damage done to artifacts with a blunt nose shovel.
And the way the property was left.
AND they did not have permission !
***I'm curious as to Florida law, ie: at a major campground catering to RV's along the Peace River, they have wire-mesh scoops on loan to the visitors ,for searching in the river for fossils ****
If anyone has access in their resident state, in regard to the law or laws pertaining to any of this, it would be great if they could post it here. ( unless it already has been)

 

[EasyMoney]

Yes Tom, that's a very good question, but the tot lots at parks AND schools ARE public property. In Oregon, the fresh and salt beaches ARE public property, but I do not hunt there without a written paper from the State Parks Department, and it's relatively easy to get one too. In fact if there are no statutes or laws against doing so, then it is perfectly legal and prudent to hunt anywhere in the USA. I have contacted not only the public parks departments in several states, the local magistrates, city and county ordinances, and the school districts, I have also contacted legal counsel, meaning an attorney - regarding the subject. It is not illegal to hunt on public property anywhere in the USA unless there is a legal restraint disallowing us to, to include Federal property. If there are no restrictions then there is automatically written permission to hunt there, and it is "pro bono" too. I (we) do not need a special writ to do so. It is pervasive and all-inclusive in these cases. All we need is a copy of the law, and we need to take it with us too, because some cops don't even know this.

The fact remains though, that if it's not yours and you take it knowing that it has not been abandoned, and have a normal healthy conscience that tells you that you can also with reasonable prudence find the owner, you are stealing, and certainly not borrowing. I have found the owners of some things I've found, but that is seldom a viable option, and therefore it is lost, and no longer owned. This too is a law. In Oregon, there is also a very unique law; if you neglect to care for your (real) property or never improve it past it's pristine or natural state, someone else has the right to take it over via homesteader's rights. This does not include property other than real property though.

Additionally, the "State" is not the "State of "democracy" in America, or the "State of Communism or Marxism" in America, it is the "State of the Republic" in America. In a Republic we are bound to our laws and agreements oftentimes by vote of electorals, not by direct representation, and this is because America is TOOO big to be operating as a true "democracy" to start with, however Russia is, and it is in fact a true "Democracy". If we did operate as a true democracy, we would be voting and deciding on each and every issue and therefore we would never have time to go to work, which is what is happening in Russia quite often now.. The whole country would go to Hell in a handbag in very short order if we tried that. True democracy is called "government by mob rule" because of this fact, and it and Socialism are impractical and unreasonable and self-defeating because of this fact. Government 101. This is why we need a Republic. It's also why we have one.

Again, taking or claiming something without written permission by virtue of being written in the law or by pre-agreement, or by special required written permission, or by virtue of abandonment of previous owner, or by our own current possession, is a crime and a sin, and in fact, both.

 

[Ray S ECenFL]

Mystery solved !

 

[Michigan Badger]

Mystery solved !

lol

 

[rmptr]

What a sad state of affairs things have degenerated to.

R M P T R