The Worst Thing That's Ever Happened To Detectorist

[bigscoop]

Now it kills me to say the following, but here it goes. The absolute worst thing that has happened to detectorist in the last 20-25 years or so is the over-marking of, and the over-reliance on, VDI. Take my Nox 800, per example, take away this VDI and what remains? Take that VDI away and most detectorist will become completely lost. And why do we have this situation? We have this situation because manufacturers are working hard to shorten all of the learning curves and to make their machines more “turn-on-and-go” because that is the growing demand.

Case in point, I have a Sov Gt and a Nox 800 laying on my table, both have digital VDI meters. But here’s the huge difference, I can take the meter off of my Sov Gt and I can still hunt pretty darn effectively with it. This can’t be done with the Nox because there is no other means of target information being delivered to the user, just a selection of standard tones similar to that of budget Bounty Hunter, etc.

With the Sov, however, there is still an abundance of target information available to the user. However, the learning curve to be able to effectively apply these other avenues of information is rather long and difficult to learn. Now let’s put the meter back on the Sov and we have the best of both worlds with multiple avenues of target information being delivered to the user. So next to the Sov, and other machines like it, many of these newer machines are little more then over-hyped toys, and remember, I bought and own a Nox 800 so this same salt is getting poured into my wound as well.

On these newer machines the user is trusting the manufacturer to make most of the decisions for him and this is always a bad thing. Why? Because the manufacture can only do this by controlling the amount and the type of information the user is exposed to, this being the only way they can assume control over that shorter learning curve and that and more user friendly “turn-on-and-go” demand. Let some of those users of these new machines hear all of the variable tones in the set of my headphones on the Sov and they’ll likely say, “WTF is all of that crazy sounding noise!” Yep, it’s a lot of additional target information, target information that they’ll never be exposed to with many of today’s latest and greatest VDI reliant machines. And as for VDI, heck, it isn’t even all that reliable beyond fairly shallow coin shooting, and it’s not all that uncommon to see variances even in this general pursuit.

So there you go, I said it, all of this shortening of those essential vital learning curves is a bad thing, not a good thing. Suddenly it seems everyone is too reliant on VDI systems that aren’t even all that accurate simply because the manufacturers have made these machines simpler to learn and easier to use. But take away that VDI and what do these users have left? Not much in most cases. Take away that VDI and many of these latest and greatest machine become completely useless, especially true for the users who are so reliant on that VDI.

Case in point. I just got back from a short hunt among the trash in my local old park. While there I started experiencing a connection issue in the meter on the Sov so I just reached down and turned it off, and then I went about with my detecting as usual, never missed a stride and still recovered a number of good targets. Hardly missed having that VDI. Do this with some of these latest and greatest machines. Ain’t going to happen!

 

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[ARC]

I have owned several VDI's... each time i found myself just watching the screen all the time... trying to "dial in" what it was i was waving over... and over...

and listening went to the back burner.

Also...

Too many other things to look at... and not only just the nature and surroundings... to tune into ANOTHER screen... waving and waving trying to decide if its worth digging or not.

Screens are what i wanna avoid when i detect.

 

[Thebigd81]

The internet!
Everyone and their brother feels that they must have a YouTube channel. People seeing others finding stuff seems to lead to a lot of staged and bogus finds

 

[smokeythecat]

Sometimes I glance at the screen, most times I just dig the target.

 

[bigscoop]

Like i said, I own the Nox 800 and it's a good machine, but even in the trashier areas the Sov with the meter is eating its lunch, but mainly because I have soooo much more target information entering my headphones because of the additional true variable tone feature of the Sov. You know, years ago manufactures even introduced "target boost" which allowed them to increase the volume on those fainter returns and detectorist really liked this new concept. However, by boosting that return it also disrupted the reality of size and depth which target volume played a major role. Because of this target volume boosting many detectorist started touting how much deeper these new machines were, and yet they weren't, it's just that the volume of the faints had been boosted. It took about three years for all of that hype to come back to reality. Look, if the Nox had been developed with the same true variable tone that exist on some of these other machines then it would be an entirely different ballgame, but as it is the Nox has very limited target ID and a great deal of that has been commandeered by the manufacturer.

 

[Xraywolf]

Of course manufacturers want people to think WOW ! It really tells you what it is before you even dig it up, I'm sold ! Little do they realize no matter what machine, it is an electronic best guess, and often a none too good one at that. Everything metal rings up as something, if we scored gold rings every time something rang up in the gold range, we'd all be filthy rich.

Nox VDI is hobbled, that was known before it even came out. Even the outdated Ace 400 blows it away so no, wouldn't rely too much on that. Might come in handy for wide open target rich environments like a beach or tot lot, really not that much use for serious dirt fishing. All that said, if you don't want it you could always tape over it to resist the temptation to take a peek.

 

[TheGreenBoy]

I am not a coin shooter, what is laying around my place is militaria, pritty much all iron and steel. My detector is a PI with raw depth and zero discrimination, no VDI at all. Non the less, fine controls such as sampling delay and sampling window width, frequenc control etc. tells a pritty good idea of what to expect, and i seldom miss severly.

 

[CoinHunterAZ]

I find the VDI screen to be quite useful, but I certainly don't depend on it. I use the features of the EQ800 to the best advantage that I possibly can. Is there room for improvement on the Nox VDI scale? No doubt about it. To say that VDI is the worst thing that ever happened to detectorists? Meh, I'm not gonna go along with that one. If ya don't like it, just put a piece of electrical tape over it and carry on. Or better yet, get a Tesoro.

 

[cudamark]

I use the VDI as just one more bit of input to decide whether to dig or not. I'm result oriented, not brand loyal or model exclusive/inclusive. I've owned dozens of different detectors in the last 50+ years of detecting. I hunt parks, beaches, house sites, farm fields, etc, and have had more success with the Equinox over any other machine I've owned. Criticize it all you want with it's compressed I.D. numbers and VDI screen, but I wouldn't trade it for anything else on the market at this time for the typical hunting I do. I find that in 50 tones and "all metal" I get plenty of audio info. Add the target I.D. and depth reading, and I can guess what the target is at an 80%+ rate. As good a machine as it was, I could never get that rate with a Sov, or, Explorer, or, Etrac, or CTX, or Excalibur, or F75, or AT Pro/Max, etc. The closest detector in target I.D. was my old White's Eagle II SL90 and Spectrum/XLT. Those things were remarkably accurate for their day. They still don't match the Nox IMO.

 

[bigscoop]

I find the VDI screen to be quite useful, but I certainly don't depend on it. I use the features of the EQ800 to the best advantage that I possibly can. Is there room for improvement on the Nox VDI scale? No doubt about it. To say that VDI is the worst thing that ever happened to detectorists? Meh, I'm not gonna go along with that one. If ya don't like it, just put a piece of electrical tape over it and carry on. Or better yet, get a Tesoro.

Never said that I didn't like VDI, only that many of today's latest and greatest are leaving the detectorist too reliant on it with no means of target information.

 

[bigscoop]

I use the VDI as just one more bit of input to decide whether to dig or not. I'm result oriented, not brand loyal or model exclusive/inclusive. I've owned dozens of different detectors in the last 50+ years of detecting. I hunt parks, beaches, house sites, farm fields, etc, and have had more success with the Equinox over any other machine I've owned. Criticize it all you want with it's compressed I.D. numbers and VDI screen, but I wouldn't trade it for anything else on the market at this time for the typical hunting I do. I find that in 50 tones and "all metal" I get plenty of audio info. Add the target I.D. and depth reading, and I can guess what the target is at an 80%+ rate. As good a machine as it was, I could never get that rate with a Sov, or, Explorer, or, Etrac, or CTX, or Excalibur, or F75, or AT Pro/Max, etc. The closest detector in target I.D. was my old White's Eagle II SL90 and Spectrum/XLT. Those things were remarkably accurate for their day. They still don't match the Nox IMO.

50 tones provides additional target information? How is that, exactly, since those tones are just standard tones carrying no actual target information?

 

[bigscoop]

I use the VDI as just one more bit of input to decide whether to dig or not. I'm result oriented, not brand loyal or model exclusive/inclusive. I've owned dozens of different detectors in the last 50+ years of detecting. I hunt parks, beaches, house sites, farm fields, etc, and have had more success with the Equinox over any other machine I've owned. Criticize it all you want with it's compressed I.D. numbers and VDI screen, but I wouldn't trade it for anything else on the market at this time for the typical hunting I do. I find that in 50 tones and "all metal" I get plenty of audio info. Add the target I.D. and depth reading, and I can guess what the target is at an 80%+ rate. As good a machine as it was, I could never get that rate with a Sov, or, Explorer, or, Etrac, or CTX, or Excalibur, or F75, or AT Pro/Max, etc. The closest detector in target I.D. was my old White's Eagle II SL90 and Spectrum/XLT. Those things were remarkably accurate for their day. They still don't match the Nox IMO.

My main issue with the Equinox is not being able to classify targets at depths because of the absence of a true variable tone, this absence allowing targets in this most unstable area to be misidentified by the machine with greater frequency. Just the nature of the technology, for sure, but with that true variable tone at least I have a chance to evaluate that target for myself.

I can’t tell you the amount of gold and silver jewelry that I have recovered at considerable depths that was being misidentified by the machine, this also including deep silver coins too. With the Nox, however, we have no other way to evaluate what the machine is tell us. So for me, anyway, this is where the Nox really falls short. Not near the issue on those targets that are in that first 6 - 8” of ground, and depending on the target and ground conditions this can sometimes be stretched out 10”, but after that things can start to get really shaky in terms of target classification. So I just like having that additional stream of target information coming to me so I have more to go on.

No big deal when water hunting or beach hunting, however, a much bigger problem when one has to be more selective in the number of holes being dug. I dig very-very little trash with the Sov, dig noticeably more with the Nox.

 

[Treasure_Hunter]

You have the option of setting how many tones you hear. As far as worst thing to happen to detecting, manufacturers gave the people what they wanted, Tesoro is perfect example of manufacturer that ignored it. If you dont like the Nox, you could sell it and buy a tone only detector, there are plenty used for sale.

 

[bigscoop]

You have the option of setting how man tones you hear. As far as worst thing to happen to detecting, manufacturers gave the people what they wanted, Tesoro is perfect example of manufacturer that ignored it. If you dont like the Nox, you could sell it and buy a tone only detector, there are plenty used for sale.

Right, you have that option, but 50 tones makes no difference as none of those tones are actually providing any target information, they are just standard tones, even at 50 tones you're just assigning a specific tone to each number on the compressed scale. As it is, just about all of the actual target evaluation and classifying is being done by the machine with no means for the user to evaluate and/or to assume control over that process. You are experienced with machines like the Excal and know full well that target ID is effected by many things, many of those factors being transferred into your headphones by that machine's true variable tone so you can further evaluate those returns for yourself. And I never said that I didn't like the Nox, have actually said the opposite. What I have said is that it's not the machine that so many are claiming it to be and that it's discrimination capabilities isn't very broad. That's just simple fact given it's compressed scale and limited audio capabilities.

 

[cudamark]

50 tones provides additional target information? How is that, exactly, since those tones are just standard tones carrying no actual target information?

Just as you do with most machines. There are subtle differences in sound regardless of what the display says. Take a 13 on the Equinox for instance. It could be a nickel, pull tab, gold ring, wad of foil, etc. The nickel and gold ring just sound different even though they read the same as some of the other junk targets. Other targets with similar I.D. numbers react the same way. I can usually tell the difference between a screw top and zinc cent, or, if the screw top is a bit larger, between it and and a copper cent or clad dime. They just don't sound the same and sometimes you also get that indication on the display, with numbers that vary a bit. In 5 tone (or less) you don't get that sound variation, and if you ignore the display, you don't get the numbers that jump a bit. At the beach, all this is a mute point anyway, as you should be scooping all non-ferrous targets, and even some that most likely are iron, but, give a non-ferrous squeak along with the iron tones. Deep rusty iron will fool you, but, even those have some tell-tale signs, such as a low iron grunt along with a real high chirp. That's why I like to keep the horseshoe on to hear those iron sounds. Two targets together (say both a ferrous and non-ferrous, or two non-ferrous) can sound similar, but, with the recovery speed set properly, along with the right amount of iron bias, they just sound different. In the case of the two non-ferrous targets, they tend to average the sound and I.D. numbers if they're close enough together.
It's not something most people will pick up right away. It will take hundreds of hours on the machine for some to be able to tell these subtle differences. The display helps that learning curve IMO.

 

[Treasure_Hunter]

Right, you have that option, but 50 tones makes no difference as none of those tones are actually providing any target information, they are just standard tones, even at 50 tones you're just assigning a specific tone to each number on the compressed scale. As it is, just about all of the actual target evaluation and classifying is being done by the machine with no means for the user to evaluate and/or to assume control over that process. You are experienced with machines like the Excal and know full well that target ID is effected by many things, many of those factors being transferred into your headphones by that machine's true variable tone so you can further evaluate those returns for yourself. And I never said that I didn't like the Nox, have actually said the opposite. What I have said is that it's not the machine that so many are claiming it to be and that it's discrimination capabilities isn't very broad. That's just simple fact given it's compressed scale and limited audio capabilities.

They provide as much info as tones do on Excal or CTX 3030, different machines produce different tones, the low tone for gold on the excal does not guarantee it is gold, just that it is in the same conductive range as gold.

 

[cudamark]

And you're more likely to get a small gold signal with the Equinox. I've tried finding small stud earrings and tiny link chains with an Excal, Etrac, and CTX. Many of those earrings and chains are undetectable with those machines, whereas, you can get a decent signal with a Nox.

 

[bigscoop]

Just as you do with most machines. There are subtle differences in sound regardless of what the display says. Take a 13 on the Equinox for instance. It could be a nickel, pull tab, gold ring, wad of foil, etc. The nickel and gold ring just sound different even though they read the same as some of the other junk targets. Other targets with similar I.D. numbers react the same way. I can usually tell the difference between a screw top and zinc cent, or, if the screw top is a bit larger, between it and and a copper cent or clad dime. They just don't sound the same and sometimes you also get that indication on the display, with numbers that vary a bit. In 5 tone (or less) you don't get that sound variation, and if you ignore the display, you don't get the numbers that jump a bit. At the beach, all this is a mute point anyway, as you should be scooping all non-ferrous targets, and even some that most likely are iron, but, give a non-ferrous squeak along with the iron tones. Deep rusty iron will fool you, but, even those have some tell-tale signs, such as a low iron grunt along with a real high chirp. That's why I like to keep the horseshoe on to hear those iron sounds. Two targets together (say both a ferrous and non-ferrous, or two non-ferrous) can sound similar, but, with the recovery speed set properly, along with the right amount of iron bias, they just sound different. In the case of the two non-ferrous targets, they tend to average the sound and I.D. numbers if they're close enough together.
It's not something most people will pick up right away. It will take hundreds of hours on the machine for some to be able to tell these subtle differences. The display helps that learning curve IMO.

But we're talking "standard tones" that have no variation, it's like turning a light switch on and of, it's on or off, there is no "variation" just different tones on a scale of 50 (when in 50 tone). There is no distortion of that individual sound wave as with true variable tone. Per example, if a target reads 155 on the VDI, regardless the target, that 150 tone is "exactly the same" from start to finish. The only time you get any type of variance is when that tone changes with the VDI scale. So sure, tones will jump around with the changing of the VDI scale but those tones themselves don't distort. Now I've got excellent hearing, been using true variable tone machines for a long-long time, and there is no distortion or additional information provided in the Nox tones. Having said that, yes, the Nox is a good machine and does have it's advantages, but it isn't the marvelous discrimination machine that all the hype has it to be. 2 tones, 5 tones, 50 tones, makes zero difference in the amount of actual target information that's being provided in any single tone. It's for this same reason that you have the ability to shift that tonal scale to your personal liking, or to change it from 2,5,50 tones, because it simply doesn't matter. They are simply assigned tones. They do not contain any actual target information. I use 50 tones, but would make no difference if I was using 5 tones, they are simply standard tones. If you silenced all of those tones you would lose no target information, only the auditable notification.

 

[HunterMF]

I started not long ago, with an Ace 250 and moved to the AT Pro. I was stuck on my screen. I started watching the others while detecting and noticed that they were looking at the ground. Looking for clues, surface finds, possible stones.

Now, I barely ever look at my screen. I use Pro mode (custom or zero) and dig at targets that are even "maybe's" ... I have definitely learned much faster by not looking at my screen but listening to what my detector has to tell me.

I would love to use an oldschool machine just to see what they are all about. I see people still using them and still popping up great finds.

Cheers

 

[ARC]

Three words...

DIG IT ALL.



Thomas Jefferson - "I'm a great believer in luck, and I find the harder I work the more I have of it.