Sorry Sir, but metal detecting is not permitted here.................

[Ray S ECenFL]

I live in Brevard County Florida and have been detecting here for 15 years. Today I went to a few local (county) parks to pick up some clad. At my second park a lady walks over to me and says " Sorry Sir, but metal detecting is not permitted here".

Thought number one: Has the county passed some legislation that I am not aware of?
Thought number two: This lady is misinformed.
Thought number three: Keep this civil. Do not make it an ugly scene.

I said I was not aware that MDing was not permitted in Brevard County parks and that I must have missed the sign that tells me it is prohibited. She says that there are no signs.
( I don't want to post this in the Rants section, so I will be nice)

I asked if it was someting that was recently decided by The County and she told me, "Oh, no, it has been this way for about 7 years".

I figured that the best thing to do was depart and move on to my next county park, so I bid my good byes and moved on.

I MD around county workers all the time, speak with them and have never been told that MDing was not permitted. I even had one worker compliment me on not leaving any visible signs when I recover a target. ( He evidently had been watching me for some time). Since I have never, in all the years of MDing in this County, been approached and told that detecting was not permitted I can only figure that this lady was misinformed.

Brevard County has many signs telling you that no golfing is permitted, no dogs ( except guide dogs) are permitted, no this and no that, but I have NEVER seen a NO Metal Detecting sign and hope I never do see one.

Just thought I would share my unusual experience with you all and mention to everyone to take great care when digging in public parks because you do not want to be the reason for those dreaded signs to be put up.

Hope you all had a Merry Christmas and will have a safe New Years.

Ray S

 

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[ivan salis]

I have 2 questions--- who would metal detect and not dig? and why? -- if your metal detecting (for a hobby -- that is ) isn't the idea to find and dig and recover stuff ? thats what we do in a nutshell --- so metal detecting and digging go hand and glove together do they not ? seems like a no brainer to me why allow metal detecting at a park but no digging ? --- being "allowed" to go into to a park and find a signal but not getting to dig it---- well it is warped to say the least --its like like going into a steak house and getting to order a steak eat but not being allowed to eat it---- that is my idea of crazy 101 --- what do they tell dog walking type folks ?-- oh you can bring your dog to the park on a leash but you can not walk him here -- you have to carry him in your armswhile your here--- no of course not --- dumb laws --if you can't dig there why bother to MD there? screwy laws like that only trip folks up --- it needs to be "yes" you can or "no" you can not. plain and simple easy to understand --- Ivan

 

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[Born2Dtect]

When told not to dig, I get away with a brass probe to pop coins out or pulling, forceps with heat shrink applied. I have not been called on my methods yet. I know a few places I have had to leave a few possible nice /older find as I don,t go deeper than 3 inches when recovering this way.

Ed D.

 

[Ray S ECenFL]

Tom,

I guess I cannot overemphasize enough the whole point of the advice that I was providing.....and that was to contact the individuals in the link that I provided. You are not located in that specific region. You have not hunted in that region. But THEY have. So why is it that you continue to beat a dead horse about how free you are to MD? As I have said in previous posts to you, the freedom you have in your region to MD is far more relaxed than in other regions in the U.S. and for that I am happy for you. But, pls do not provide misinformation to other TNET members that could get them into trouble.

Regarding that suggested link of the individual getting ticketed......yes, it was for digging....however, if you would be so kind as to read the poster's opening words, he said that while they were MDng.

Also, Tom, pls note that earlier in this post (your reply #15), you said, "As for your assertion of potentially being "busted", can you cite me an instance of someone being busted for detecting in a non-posted, non-historical monument?"......I ask you to return and read the information posted in the following thread:

http://forum.treasurenet.com/index.php/topic,101187.0.html

The #2 reply to this thread was posted by you. The thread detailed how an individual in Texas was ticketed, fined, and his equipment was confiscated for MDng in a park in Harris County, TX.....no signs posted against MDng.

Therefore, I feel your challenge in your #15 of this thread has been met.

To Ray: Pls excuse the side circus. I feel if you check with the individuals listed in the link that I provided earlier, you are abiding by both sides of this "discussion". You are not asking "the authorities" (Tom's concern), yet you asking those who are knowledgeable of the region in which you wish to detect (TT's and my concern). Fair enough?
Thank you.
--Mel

borninok

To all:
Everyone makes some good points. This turned out to be a very informative post and I want to thank everyone who has input (both pro and con). I am sure that the laws differ in every county of every state and every town. In my case, I think the self appointed parks enforcer was ill informed when she indicated that it was illegal to MD in the Brevard County Parks. None of the county ordinances appear to restrict such activity in the county parks in MY county. I can not speak for other counties and cities. Just be aware that it is up to each of us to determine that we are NOT breaking the law. If the law is broken, consequences will be paid. Happy hunting in 2008 to all of you. By the way, I did not mean to stir up a hornets nest here. LOL. But it found all your posts enjoyable and informative. Thank you.

Ray S

 

[rmptr]

Remember, folks. Metal detecting is a privilege. It is NOT a right. We have a code of ethics to go by. And, I, for one, am not going to endanger that privilege for other detectorists because of an ill-informed perception.
Thank you. Not a sermon, just a thought.
Mel

borninok

I'm sorry.
I just can't let that one pass.

Metal detecting is NOT a privilege.

It is certainly a privilege to detect at an old home on someone's PRIVATE PROPERTY, but if it is public land, not reserved as a national park or some kind of historic preservation, a citizen has every right to detect upon it.

By golly Born seems to be the nicest fellow with good intentions, but he is WRONG on this point.

And I'm NOT going to get drawn into a loong political discussion over it, either.

I just don't like to see a statement made that will mislead people.

If anyone might doubt ME, get out the book and read it. It should be next to your Bible on the nitestand.

I will promise you one thing. Defending your rights can be costly, in many ways.

Many thanks to all those who fought hard, and may have given all, to preserve our God given rights.

R M P T R

 

[rmptr]

Like it or not, the reality is this: there are rules to every aspect of life. There are rules here on TNet, violate them badly enough or often enough and you get a lifetime ban. The same is true for metal detecting. So the real question is: Do you want to have a lifelong hobby with some restrictions, or do you want to dig furiously for a while longer before we all get booted from everywhere due to the selfishness or lazyness of some? It's all about personal responsibility.

Are you claiming I have BADLY violated a rule and you will ban me from Tnet for life?

R M P T R

 

[rmptr]

As a guest here upon Tnet I strive to respect rules of the house. But I've never been a gentleman.
I'm frequently dirty/muddy, have been known to drink beer and smoke a cigar, and pass wind in public.
What most people ASSUME is their business.
I have no desire to be drawn into discussion of my right to travel, or lunch with W and his lovely wife.
We let the house out to him. He's entitled to some privacy.
Those were Admiral Faragutt's words, "Full speed ahead!" Good man. I'll stand by his side any day.
I also admire Nathan Hale, Bull Halsey, Chester Nimitz, George Patton, and Norman Schwarzkopf.
Has the first part of Faragutt's quote been forgotten?
Me n Capt Barbossa are pleased you and Mel and Tom have a code for your hobby but we look to em more as guidelines.
I've dug holes in California, Nevada, Utah, Idaho, Arizona, and parts of Oregon and Washington under the 1872 Mining Laws in search of lead and associated minerals. That law identifies my right to do so.
I was raised under the Code of the West.
Leave things as you found them, but grab the gold while you're there!
Private property, national parks, historic sites, flower gardens, and gunnery ranges, are reserved from public access with good reason. Absent good reason, a law is bad, and should be overturned.
It is done occasionally.
Statutes and ordinances are frequently overturned, for various reasons.
Gerhard Fisher was once accosted by the FCC, wanting to license his radio transmission devices.
He sent them packing, knowing that given an inch, a bureaucrat will take a mile.
Young people are frequently presented in debate as some sort of trump card.
Some are concerned they will read this.
I'm concerned they'll be distracted, playing computer games, and WON'T read this!
Young people should be shown, by example, they are no longer subservient to the crown.
We threw off that yoke many years ago, for their benefit.
To succumb to bureaucratic restriction upon any lawful pursuit will only lead to further encroachment.

When selecting a national emblem to represent the people of our land, many indigenous creatures were considered.
Benjamin Franklin was in favor of the turkey.
The rest wisely decided upon the eagle.

You may find it upon an American coin you dig up.

R M P T R

 

[MikeOregon]

I'm not sure what to think about this topic. I was with Jeffro one day this summer in a Eugene city park when a woman parks worker approached us to tell us metal detecting was absolutely forbidden in Eugene's parks. I showed her my City of Eugene Parks Department permit (free every 6 months!) and we volunteered to leave anyway, if we were making her uncomfortable (she was helping with a youth activity in the park.) She blustered a little, said "no, that's OK, we were told it was illegal," and because we were getting worn out, we only stayed about 20 minutes after that.

On the other hand, one day last week a parks employee came across me detecting and we had a long chat about it, along with coin collecting, treasure hunting, and other enjoyable related topics. Before we parted, he pointed to a place in the park and said, "you might want to check over there; it's where the drunks sleep during the summer, and I bet they lose a lot of change." He was right! Parks employees, in other words, are a lot like everyone else. Some know exactly what they're talking about, and some have no clue.

I understand both sides of the argument about whether detectorists ought to speak up or not. The general tendency in my part of the world is to distrust local government, so most people here believe that if we attempt to raise awareness, all we are doing is asking for further regulation and restriction. At the same time, I have had experiences in other activities where I laid low and tried to avoid speaking out, and because I remained silent, it was believed I just didn't care very much, so the decisions went against me as opposed to those who "cared enough" to speak out.

Part of me would like to activate and organize the responsible metal detecting community to raise awareness of our hobby by publicizing a code of ethics, demonstrating careful digging techniques, and otherwise educating our policy makers so that if there are ever complaints, they will realize that the complaints are not about us, they're about those who don't follow the rules. Others say that by shining any light on ourselves at all, we are asking for trouble.

As I say, I can see both sides, but I also have the distinct impression of a slowly tightening series of rules. In the December, 2007 edition of Western and Eastern treasures, an author asks, "Will there still be metal detecting in 2020?" I think that unless we educate the public that what we do is not only fun, but that it can be done in ways that are clean, respectful, and polite, the answer to that question could very well be, "only in our own back yards."

Mike

 

[954hunter]

I'm here to further muddy the waters.......Speaking to legality, I refer only to the State of Florida.....your laws may vary.... I am a police officer of 19 years experience and have reviewed extensively the statutes in Florida and have not found anything to indicate use of metel detecting gear is unlawful. I have found that hitoric sites are clearly off limits. The county (Broward) ordinances make no mention of metel detecting.......except in historic sites it is prohibited. Municipalities are like the direction of the wind......but from my observations..No prohibitions except those previously mentioned.

Public lands, school districts, parks, green belt areas, the beachs, public (government) buildings........Are NOT, and i'll bet a paycheck on this, public (yours and mine to do what we please) .........these areas although "public" are considered the property of the State, County or City and are therefore operated and maintained by the government.>>>these folks have the power to decide, on the spot, if you and your metal detector are welcome.

A city employee acts as an agent of the facility he/she is stationed at and as such has absolute power to dictate what is going to happen in that park, etc.on any given day...Only possible exeption would be to contact a site supervisor.

Most parks in this area prohibit digging of any kind......I think they call in excavating......and there are other rules, laws, and ordinances, from which these people can hang thier hats on, to end your day at the "public" park

I am not agreeing with it, I'm just telling it like it is, here in Florida and probably alot of other places, even if you choose not to think so.

I don't think I would want to or be comfortable confiscating someones detector.....thats just me.....some of us got smarts , real good.......can it happen, I'm sure it could, but i wouldn't do it.

Most government employees don't want to bother you or anyone else, I just wanna see the finds, but there are exceptions. Use your head, don't get into a dirk measuring contest, you will almost always come up short LMAO.

Some folks posted some solid advice just use your heads, in Florida, and you will probably not have anyone bother you.

Sorry I carried on so long......HH

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Been out for a few days digging barbers and such off our storm-smashed beaches here 8)

I think I see the dilema here: For those of you content with "scratching" or "probing only", then I guess you can claim you weren't digging. But for a lot of turf hunters, we're strictly after the oldies. I actually pass up anything LESS than 6" in the turf. I hone in ONLY on the deepies (7 to 10" etc...). There is no way to dig those, without making some sort of plug, even if still left hinged, etc.... If we can all agree that going deeper will require "digging", then there is our dilema. Because you KNOW, that no park in any city in the USA is going to say "sure, go ahead, we have no rules about digging in the parks".

My friends and I, when dueling in the turf, actually consider it a "demerit point", so to speak, for digging clad. Ie.: if you can finish the day with more oldies than clad (a deep clad dimes fools us now and then), you are more of an ace than the guy who fills his apron with clad, and a few shallow fluke oldies. It has become sort of a sport to see who can get the deepest silver whispers, as .... the general rule is, the older, the deeper. Sure shallow flukes occur now and then. But I assure you, if you don't go past 3", you will finish the day with 99% clad, when it comes to turf.

Borninok, you say, in reference to your link to the Houstan incident: "Therefore, I feel your challenge in your #15 of this thread has been met." But I didn't say there were never instances of guys getting an actual enforced ticket (or jail or fine or confiscations) at a non-historic, non-posted park. I said it would be "rare indeed". For every one of those occurances, thousands and thousands of parks across the USA get detected with never a word from any busy-bodies. So ........do you base your hunt practices on the few rogue instances, or the thousands of times no one cares? I base my hunt practices on the thousands, not the exceptions.

In San Francisco, a guy got a ticket for metal detecting in a city park. He went to fight it, and the judge threw it out within 15 seconds. To this day, we still metal detect at any and all SF parks, and there is nothing addressing the subject on the books (that we know of). On two occasions there though, I have personally been told to "beat it", in SF parks: once by a gardener, and another time by a park bureaucrat, who just happened to be passing by. In the first case at Golden Gate park, I was not digging ...... just swinging. When I asked "why?", he says "because you guys dig". At this particular park, BTW, with that one exception, we still detect it routinely, all the time, unbothered. As long as you're not "sticking out" or being a moron, you're usually left alone. In the second SF park incident, at another park, I was in the middle of a plug, when approached.

Treasure Tails, you say: " I guess it's easier to get booted than to make a phone call? " Yes! It's easier. 1) I don't want to hear a "no" where, truth be told, no one would probably have noticed or cared (till I asked), and 2) as discussed above, to be totally without incident, I would have to include in my question: "are there prohibitions about digging?", and of COURSE I'd get a "no" there.

 

[Dirt Fishin Dale]

Well it all depends on how you look at it.

Brevard County ORDINANCE NO. 96 31
Section 28. Removal of natural resources. No person in any park or recreational facility
shall remove any beach sand, whether submerged or not, any soil, rock, stones, plants, wood, or other
materials, or make any excavation by tool, equipment, blasting or other means or agency.

You can see the ordinance at this site
http://www.brevardparks.com/facility/index.php#prohibit

 

[Born2Dtect]

I agree 100%. See post #30 on Jan 2, 2008 this post.

Ed D.

 

[rmptr]

THIS IS GREAT!

We CAN have a productive dialog without flames!

I'm tryin to figger out this cut n paste stuff so I can make a gud presentashun...

I'll be back...

R M P T R

 

[ecmjamsit]

Re: Sorry Sir, but metal detecting is not permitted here(The Excuse)

is this a legal excuse? I am just looking for the ring I lost here! Ok..it's a lie...but the politicians do it all the time!

 

[borninok]

Tom,

You might want to get the SF smog/fog out of your eyes. In your #15 reply, you stated your challenge; "can you cite me an instance of someone being busted for detecting in a non-posted, non-historical monument?"

I, in turn, responded to your challenge by referring you to the thread: http://forum.treasurenet.com/index.php/topic,101187.0.html
That cited thread provides you with your requested "instance of someone being busted for detecting in a non-posted, non-historical mounument".
And, in that thread, you even posted a comment to that incident. So, what I was saying was, simply...you asked, I provided.

In #15 of this thread, you also stated "Skittish people sometimes post about "fines, jail, etc..." but when you press them for examples, none are forthcoming. " Again, sir, you requested, I provided.

Regarding your quest for older coins, I'm not sure how that is germaine to Ray's question. What I really can't understand is that by me providing the point of contact link to the metal detecting club of that specific area, it provides a favorable compromise to your point and my point. Yet, you continue to beat a dead horse about your area, your freedom to detect, your this, your that. Give it a rest, my friend. A fellow TNETTER asked a question about HIS SPECIFIC AREA.....not about YOURS. Look, in case you haven't understood what I'm trying to do.....I'm trying to answer Ray's question w/o embarassing you. As you and I have discussed previously, you will never win me over to your side. And...I will never win you over to my side. We have two different opinions. However, what you are missing is that this thread is not about me....and it is not about you. Ray asked a question, and I provided an answer for him to seek assistance without going to the authorities. Isn't that what you are advocating? So, what is your problem?

FOR ecmjamsit: LOL. I always thought the best execuse was that I had been at that spot the night before with another woman (not my wife), and during our friskiness, I lost my wedding band....and now I was trying to find it before my wife found out that it was missing. LOL

HH,
Mel

borninok

 

[rmptr]

okay...

I gave a try at the cut n snip n paste thingy... hope it works out

and I don't really mean to quote anyone, just want to give them the credit for taking the time to type what is most likely prevalent somewhere...


Tom says
For those of you content with "scratching" or "probing only", then I guess you can claim you weren't digging. But for a lot of turf hunters, we're strictly after the oldies.
and
In San Francisco, a guy got a ticket for metal detecting in a city park. He went to fight it, and the judge threw it out within 15 seconds. To this day, we still metal detect at any and all SF parks, and there is nothing addressing the subject on the books.
>>>>Sure there is. If someone were to do a reckless job of it, they would be subject to a charge of vandalism which IS on the books! We've got to find common ground between probers and diggers!

I personally don't want to see someone with a backhoe on the turf in my local parks no matter how well they intend to repair their efforts. On manicured TURF, I don't think I even want to see people with something the size of a Lesche digging tool.
I'm sure a clean job can be accomplished, but the propensity for damage is much greater. We're NOT speaking of any specific individual here, or qualifying someone as an "expert detectorist," we're talking about a potentially large number of people who may respond to a discount offering at the big box stores.<<<<

Dirt points out
Brevard County ORDINANCE NO. 96 31
Section 28. Removal of natural resources. No person in any park or recreational facility
shall remove any beach sand, whether submerged or not, any soil, rock, stones, plants, wood, or other
materials, or make any excavation by tool, equipment, blasting or other means or agency.
>>>>Excellent. You know where they stand, and have something precise you can work with. First step would be to contact your local representative and describe how your hobby is being discriminated against and ask him to present an addendum for that ordinance that would except detecting hobbyists employing customary implements not to exceed xx" in total length.
Pick a councilman that was a college athlete or an outdoorsman. Start at the bottom, and work your way up.<<<<


These BB forums are a wonderful source of information. I frequently hear of many things which would have been missed if I relied upon commercial media entertainment presentations loosely described as news.
Current news from across the country is quite distressing. Bad, not to put too much of a point on it! Our rights are about to be trampled upon significantly if we cannot find common ground and take certain action to defend and preserve them.
Now, might be a better time than ever to join a MD club of any sort.

More heads is better than one with headphones on.

R M P T R

 

[DANGLANGLEY]

I always ask at the first of every new year when I want to hunt a park, public school system or just along city sidewalks. I always explain exactly how I retrieve the object and offer to let them watch me do it. I rarely get turned down and I have never had anyone take me up on the offer to watch me retrieve an object. Being up front and explaining thoroughly what you intend to do makes all the difference. Being arrested or having your detector confiscated is very bad for our hobby even if you get your stuff back. Negative publicity is why some people get ran off. Leaving huge holes, detecting without permission and getting irate when someone tells us to leave can only lead to getting us all banned from the sport. I have been confronted several times after I got permission and been told to leave. I always get the name of the person who gave me permission and tell the one who is trying to run me off who it was. when I can, I get it in writing and get the person to sign it. I never have to defend myself very strongly with permission and I have a name to prove I did ask. I posted all this just in case someone might not have thought of it yet. Have a good one

DANGLANGLEY

 

[rmptr]

I've never had a problem detecting local parks, but was once asked not to detect on the lawn of our county hospital facility. By a maintenance staff guy, who was sent out to speak with me by some busy-body nurse I had not even encountered.

So I said sure! Leaving anyway... But he seemed a nice fellow and I mentioned I was doing no harm, actually removing trash, (which I showed him), and I pointed out that the blackbirds getting worms had made noticeably more impact than I had.

He agreed, and told me some nurse had felt I was suspicious.

So, I went on to tell him I detect on all county property, including the courthouse lawn, without complaint.
I also described how most the turf is periodically aerated by landscape personnel, which leaves a gazillion holes, and he was also familiar with that.

Anyhow, we had a nice enough quick conversation and I was on my way...

Today, I discovered our nearby sports complex had been aerated within the last few days, so I took the opportunity to detect the infields. Usually I stay in the outfield. Didn't do so good.

IF, you are detecting public places, it's always best to leave things the way you found them.
I have less impact than baseball or soccer cleats, by a long shot. All our fields are aerated, too.

So, if you should ever get tagged, and find yourself in a position you must defend, find out from the landscape staff IF they do periodically aerate. Use that in your defense. You are hopefully not shredding everything, as the machine does, but only selectively, where your machine identifies a target, and you DO leave things nicely, right?

Here's pics you may use to defend, if none are available for you at the moment. If you need Hi-res, well, send me a PM and I'll email 'em to you. MDing is a good thing, all around.

R M P T R

 

[rmptr]

Here's another... These were both taken alongside the pitcher's mound.

R M P T R

 

[bell47]

I pretty much stick to beaches and underwater so I don't have a problem in parks. What if you looked her square in the face with a puzzled look and said" Metal detector? Who the hell wants to find old Metal? This is a noisy a--hole detector. " While saying this casualy point it towards her...."UH OH(looking down at it)....HEY! I GOTTA HIT!!!" Then look at her like she's stupid! This would probably get you kicked out for good, but if you were not coming back anyway.......

 

[MD Dog]

I took the advance step a few years ago to consult My lawyer when confronted by an angry woman at a park stating that I was in violation of some imaginary law against metal detecting in a state park here in N.Y. He scrutinized the law books for the better part of three months before declaring to me that while there are laws in existence that seem to be counter productive to MDing they do not make the sport of Metal Detecting illegal in anyway. What they do do is make either the digging or removal of Items older than 50 years old without permits etc... illegal. This established and with his advise and consent to continue to monitor said laws and advise me of any change to them, I proceeded to Metal Detect all public property. Now Understanding the laws within your state may not even be enough because of what they call "Principles" or established interpretations of certain laws. What I mean is according to my lawyer, If told by anyone to leave a publicly held piece of property I should straight away do so for this simple reason it's easier and less costly than the fight which could ensue. They have this thing in the law called the principle of stewardship. As I understand it anyone appointed or employed to take care of or do anything officially for a piece of publicly held property has the right to treat it as their own within the legall bounds. That means that even a volunteer can tell you to leave or you can be arrested for trespass and It matters not what the local police may have said before hand, since even though they have been employed and appointed as caretakers of that property, it is the last duly issued order with which you must comply. As for dealing with the 50 year limitation on what can be dug or kept I do have the added burdon of having to stop and hide whatever in the event of a nice find so as not to be caught with it on my person. The diggin part is an infraction of the law and only warrants at the worst a ticket for ten dollars and Restitution of any monies spent to repair the damage I've done. If anyone wants I can supply links for the case law. Which BTW was well hidden within the Education laws in N.Y. You wouldn't believe the restrictions they tried to place on MDing here in the 80s. But like I said they cant do anything about swinging a MD its the permits and rules and regs for diggin and recovering of "Artifacts" That are a problem. BTW, If you ask a cop can I kick such and suchs' ass, and he/she says yes, do you think they'll let you off, just because you've got the cop on tape saying it's OK ?