Stupid Meters & tones!

[Michigan Badger]

Stupid Meters & tones!

How much do you love you detector's target ID features? Enough to pass up on a real diamond ring or deep valuable coin?

Did you know both visual and audio target ID features were made to work in air but not in the ground?

Simply recreate a real coin hunting situation in your coin garden and see what readings you get. Plant coins next to nails and foil (real life stuff) and bury silver at 6 inches or more.

Now try that "awesome" target ID machine on those puppies and see what it tells you.

I've been doing tests like this over the last few months and buying and selling detectors left and right. My conclusion is I've bought my last target ID gimmick. I may buy a machine that has target ID features but I won't buy it for those features. I'll buy it for depth and the fact it will work with those features turned off.

Facts:

Many targets read the exact opposite in the ground that they read in the air.

Deep dimes (over 5 inches) in mineralized soil often read and sound as pulltabs/foil/nickels/pennies or even as iron at extreme depths.

The tone machines are even worse. If you're using a tone machine, make sure you dig all IRON signals that are small in size and offer a tight signal. These are often deep old coins.

Many deep Indian cents read very much like foil.

SUM: Don't trust those stupid meters or tones! If possible dig everything that produces a tight small signal good from all directions.

You're welcome! Name your first seated dime after me.

 

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[Michigan Badger]

Re: Stupid Meters & tones!

I agree with you to an extent Badger. I also believe tones and Vdis are useful. I use my Vdi #s when hunting parks and private yards. I might be missing items, but I am not digging 500 holes and not being invited back. When I relic hunt, I rarely use the Vdis, I dig just about everything.

Yes, there are always exceptions.

 

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[Treasure_Hunter]

Re: Stupid Meters & tones!

I am still a newbie, I do not feel qualified to give any advice concerning this, and I respect MB and the other "old timer's" opinions a great deal. (Old as in experience, not age )

Using my Sovereign GT I do know on the last diamond ring I found at Daytona, it sounded exactly like a pulltab when I put the coil over it, but since I dig all signals that do not null both directions it was a nice surprise when a nice diamond ring rolled out of my scoop.

If it nulls in all directions, I usually don't dig unless I'm bored. I dig all other signals, including nulls with chirps, nulls one direction, chirps from opposite direction.

Using Excal I dig the same way I do with the Sov GT, all targets that do not null both directions.

With my Whites 6000 XL even with the meter I dig anything above iron on the meter, and at times still dig iron just to see what it is, since I usually only use it in playgrounds and parks this seems to work.....

On my Fisher 1235 X I haven't played with it enough to comment. I got it mostly for competition hunts.

 

[Michigan Badger]

Re: Stupid Meters & tones!

I am still a newbie, I do not feel qualified to give any advice concerning this, and I respect MB and the other "old timer's" opinions a great deal. (Old as in experience, not age )

Using my Sovereign GT I do know on the last diamond ring I found at Daytona, it sounded exactly like a pulltab when I put the coil over it, but since I dig all signals that do not null both directions it was a nice surprise when a nice diamond ring rolled out of my scoop.

If it nulls in all directions, I usually don't dig unless I'm bored. I dig all other signals, including nulls with chirps, nulls one direction, chirps from opposite direction.

Using Excal I dig the same way I do with the Sov GT, all targets that do not null both directions.

With my Whites 6000 XL even with the meter I dig anything above iron on the meter, and at times still dig iron just to see what it is, since I usually only use it in playgrounds and parks this seems to work.....

On my Fisher 1235 X I haven't played with it enough to comment. I got it mostly for competition hunts.

Great post and smart hunter. You'll do just fine.

One thing with the GT (which I love) is beware of those nulls. I slow way down at nulls and change directions. The GT is a great machine but not perfect (darn close though). Sometimes multiple swings can make a null signal into a positive one as in the case of a masked coin.

HH,

Badger

 

[Born2Dtect]

Re: Stupid Meters & tones!

ID accuracy, tone or visual can be good or bad. I tend look at mine but do not dig solely on the reading. If I am not getting many signals I will dig more bad ID targets. Also when covering a large trashy area I may pass trashy looking signal. Especially if I have dug a few and confirmed trash. I can tell be the numbers a coins denomination and on memorial pennies if older or newer as high %, say 90% +. I have seen in areas I know were hunted many times, where most finds are pennies, trash and occasionally a piece of smaller jewelry. Target ID is like all features on detectors, Never 100% correct, or wrong, It is another tool the metal detectorist can you to finds those good finds!

Ed D.

 

[Treasure_Hunter]

Re: Stupid Meters & tones!

Thanks MB,

All nulls I check from multiple directions, multiple times to see if I get a signal from any direction on any swing. I want to be sure I am not walking away from a deep or masked target. I learned this from the experienced Minelab hunters who helped me with the Excal when I first started using it.

 

[SHERMANVILLE ILLINOIS]

Re: Stupid Meters & tones!

Not all hammers are alike; know your tools.
Are you driving nails, fitting parts, or breaking
up objects

Know your tools.

 

[bakergeol]

Re: Stupid Meters & tones!

I'm glad my thread picked up some traffic. These of this type usually get ignored.

Good comments here but some miss the point a little I think.

The meter readings and tones can cause many to miss good targets. The reason being most good things are masked by trash. Trash fools all audio tone pitch and digital readout machines.

Most dime store tone/meter detectors can be used for shallow clad unmasked down maybe 3 or 4 inches deep (some can't even do this). What I'm talking about is real world hunting for that really old stuff deep down and usually heavily masked by trash. In these situations your meters and usually tones will deceive you.

I will admit the added bells and whistles are fun. I still get a kick out of them myself. In fact, I prefer machines with pitch tones built in. However, I know enough not to let these tones run me.

Those nice small (barely heard) tight and mellow signals (both ways) that drop off when I raise the coil 4 inches are what I'm after at old sites. These old buttons and coins down 8+ inches will often register IRON due to masking trash or at times because one has passed the discrimination depth range.

See, all VLF detectors detect deeper than the tones and meter readings can track. Once one reaches the outer range of the tone/meter field the signals become corrupted. And this corruption is not consistant. Soil mineralization and other factors control it. At one time the tones may be excellent down to 8 inches deep. The next second in different soil it may work right down to 5 inches...then 2 inches...then 7 inches....then 3 inches...etc. The tone/meter signals are limited by the main signal depth. They always lag behind the transmitter's signal. VLF machines are all highly subject to ground conditions and our signals would look like a rollercoaster ride on a bargraph.

In our soil my F-2's tone and meter were corrupted at 4 inches deep on a penny. Some brands such as Minelab are pretty good down to maybe 6-7 inches as long as masking trash is not too heavy. I said "not too heavy"...how many times does that happen in the real world?

How many barely audible tiny smooth repeatable "iron" signals has the reader passed up over the years?

Badger
I agree with most of what has been said. The above is part of the reason I ceased buying the latest whiz bang VLF to hit the market and have been experimenting with discriminating PIs. However, it is more than iron masking that is the issue. It is the very nature of VLF machines. The deeper you go the more iron in the soil your detector reads and good targets at depth will read toward the iron end even without nearby iron masking.

That is why I am waiting for an good PI with discrimination to finally be produced. PIs are not affected by ground mineralization to the same degree as VLFs. Hopefully they will give the same TID reading at the surface and at maximum depth.

Time will tell
George

 

[Michigan Badger]

Re: Stupid Meters & tones!

Badger
I agree with most of what has been said. ...it is more than iron masking that is the issue. It is the very nature of VLF machines. George

I agree George. I mentioned that directly or implied that same thing somewhere in all the above prose.

I demonstrated that very thing in a video I had on here a while back. I sometimes call it "depth masking."

Years ago I owned a house on Lake Michigan and we spent a lot of time trolling for Salmon. I recall many times early in the morning when the fog was very thick that the buildings on shore that normally would have been common to me were very difficult to identify. We'd try to guess what we were looking at but by the time we got close enough we often discovered we were wrong.

Detectors can see targets clearly in air but the deeper they get down in the soil the thicker the "fog" and the more confused they get. The ground mineral layers change the nature of the buried item. Ever dig a nail that on the surface wouldn't even produce a beep on your detector? Deep down it was a silver dollar to the machine. On the surface it became what it is, a nail. The reverse of this is what happens to sliver, gold, copper, etc.

This is easy to see with a detector like the new Fisher F-2. In the air it read a penny perfectly. In the ground at 4 inches it was an iron tone with a meter reading of 06. In that case there was nothing but sifted sandy common dirt.

I too am going the PI direction and am even now working to recall how I hunted back in the old days when all we had were those all-metal lunchbox machines. I'll have some discrimination with the Infinium but that will take some time to learn.

Thanks for commenting and good luck with the PI.

Badger

 

[diggerfororo]

Re: Stupid Meters & tones!

I use a 15+year old fisher with tone I.D. I have yet to hunt with anyone that can find deeper coins than I do. It works great in heavy trash and in high mineral soil. You are correct about the iron signals that most machines give on coins at great depths. Most of the time this is not caused by iron objects near the target but is caused by the halo around the coin. When a coin is at or beyond the max depth of your machine, it will still give a signal because the halo has expanded the size of the coin. BUT- the halo is of a lesser density than the coin and it will read as iron unless you go very slow.
This is what get the people in trouble with their VDI meters. Most hunters don't hunt at a slow enough sweep speed to get these targets. I hunt at a normal speed and listen for those smooth , tight iron tones.
I have watched many hunters stop and check their meter many times and pass the target. Even if you go ahead and dig, just think of all the time you waste ducking your head to look at the meter.

Les

 

[Massbaycolonist]

Re: Stupid Meters & tones!

Hi Badger! You have hit the proverbial nail on the head!! This has been one of my biggest problems while detecting: Useless Meters! I had a relatively expensive machine, the Minelab Sovereign: The meter was totally useless! The meters may be of use to the coin shooters looking for clads and coppers in shallow ground, but for the deep goodies, forget the meter-in fact, forget everything. This is why one of the mantras of the metal detectorist is: "Dig everything". After a certain depth, avg.6", both the meter and tones are totally unreliable.
I think Garrett has one of the best meters available, found on the GTI 2500. If a target is too deep for the machine to analyze and readout correctly, the readout on the meter will let you know this by indicating a "pulsing" readout. A pulsing readout basically means this in Machine Treasuretalk: "I think this is iron, but it is too deep to tell. It might be gold."
I'm not plugging Garrett here. I'm just saying that this is the best meter I know of. I like the target size readout on the Garrett 2500 also, but after a certain depth, even this meter readout becomes useless. Worse than useless, actually, because it can give the wrong size readouts on very deep targets. And let's face it, the best targets are not usually in shallow ground. Quite the opposite.
So I think you are right to eschew meters entirely if you are looking for deep targets. For deep targets, the meters will have you reject some of the best finds. I have always noticed that detectorists who use machines without a meter, such as the Pulse machines, always seemed to find very valuable items. I think that the fact that they don't have meters to throw them off is one of the main reason why meter-less detectorists find excellent treasure.
Same thing for tones and/or the sudden loss of audio threshold: They are reliable down to about six inches, maybe eight on some machines, but after that, you can get any kind of tone on any target.
To sum it up, if you are looking for deep or unconventional targets, you have to ignore the meter (if you have one), and dig on any tone signal.
PS, Badger, I notice that you prefer the Garrett Infinium and the Tesoro Bandito 2. You sound like you have tested a lot of detectors. Why do you prefer these two detectors over others? And for what kind of soil? (I love beach hunting). Excellent point about those useless meters, Badger.. Keep up the sharp work.

 

[Schrecky]

Re: Stupid Meters & tones!

I've been real pleased with the ID's my DFX makes. I know for one reason or another, a couple of times a year I may begin wondering if I'm passing up something I should have dug. I'll get on a kick about digging everything regardless of the ID. This isn't much of a problem on a beach when you are using a scoop but inland it is much more work and time. After a day or two of digging everything up and compairing the find with the ID I end up thinking that this is nuts and that I hadn't seen anything that I would have missed if I had gone with the ID. Of course, if your looking for jewelry you usually have to dig the tab ID's too.

 

[Michigan Badger]

Re: Stupid Meters & tones!

PS, Badger, I notice that you prefer the Garrett Infinium and the Tesoro Bandito 2. You sound like you have tested a lot of detectors. Why do you prefer these two detectors over others? And for what kind of soil? (I love beach hunting). Excellent point about those useless meters, Badger.. Keep up the sharp work.

Thanks much!

I try lots of detectors and these two are just the ones I'm focusing on now.

I do a lot of my hunting at old house sites and similar locations that have lots of nails and trash. I have found my best finds at these types of sites.

I used a Sovereign GT last summer and really liked it. I dug the least number of nails I have ever dug in a summer. But the thing that worried me was those Minelab iron nulls. Was the GT missing targets by nulling out on all that iron? Can I fully trust that iron mask?

I've used many Tesoro machines over the years. The Bandido is one model I hadn't ever used and since it has ground balance I decided to purchased one used from a dealer.

Since it is a uMax machine I can use my favorite Tesoro coil the 12x10. The depth and target separation of this coil amazes me. For me it works perfectly even in high trash areas. Probably my main reason for going back to Tesoro was for this coil.

The Bandido has ground balance and a threshold control. So, I have the 3 most important features I need for my testings this summer. I have ground balance, threshold control, and my beloved 12x10 concentric (I'm not fond of DD's).

The Infinium will be used mostly at small abandoned beaches both on land and in the water. I also may try it at certain small hot spots at the trashy sites.

Thanks,

Badger

 

[Michigan Badger]

Re: Stupid Meters & tones!

I've been real pleased with the ID's my DFX makes. I know for one reason or another, a couple of times a year I may begin wondering if I'm passing up something I should have dug. I'll get on a kick about digging everything regardless of the ID. This isn't much of a problem on a beach when you are using a scoop but inland it is much more work and time. After a day or two of digging everything up and compairing the find with the ID I end up thinking that this is nuts and that I hadn't seen anything that I would have missed if I had gone with the ID. Of course, if your looking for jewelry you usually have to dig the tab ID's too.

Yes, I've done this too. Sometimes there's just too much surface trash and the work and damage just aren't worth it.

But, in taking the most sensible route one also takes the chance of missing something great. That's the point I guess.

 

[Treasure Tom]

Re: Stupid Meters & tones!

Very interesting post Badger! I have a question... You said your buddy's expensive machine identified the nail & silver quarter as "pulltab." Does this occur because the target ID feature takes the reading of the nail and silver and come out with an "average" reading? Does this occur with all other detectors with target ID? Thanks!

Tom

 

[hollowpointred]

Re: Stupid Meters & tones!

badge my friend.......some may say you are an "old school" kinda guy! ............(you are absolutely right by the way!) target ID and Tone ID are often wrong. it is all too easy to get lulled into thinking that that meter is always telling the truth. in reality, its only telling the truth some of the time. the advice you gave about digging all tight signals will result in a lot more finds. no doubt about that one!

 

[Massbaycolonist]

Re: Stupid Meters & tones!

Hi Michigan Badger: You're welcome. A couple of things here: You asked if you could entirely trust the iron mask on the Soveriegn. I wouldn't trust anything on a Soveriegn. The meter on my Soveriegn was laughable. Just a series of black led's. That's how I learned that meters are stupid.

Observe that on Garrett's totally top of the line detector, the InfiniumLS, there is no meter. Sure, they could of added a neat looking meter with pictures of gold bags and silver coins, but they didn't. Other than the technical challenge of developing a meter for a PI machine, they didn't want a gimmicky meter on their top of the line model.

That Umax rig sounds like a real nice combo. Why don't you care for DD's? One last thing: I've decided to go with a Garrett InfiniumLS. What is the link to the infinium forum? I thought I had it bookmarked, but now I can't find it. Thanks, and happy hunting. Stay safe.

 

[muleskinner]

Re: Stupid Meters & tones!

I totally agree about the meters just going along for the ride. But totally disagree with Massbaycolonist when he says he doesn't trust anything with a Sovereign. I've had mine find deep silver amongst square nails.
If there is a better detector for all around use, I want to know what it is. I will be purchasing another detector before spring, and would be glad to hear a good recommendation. Only reason I'm going to buy another is there are places I would like to swing a faster and lighter detector. I'll use it where I'm willing to give up some depth.

 

[Michigan Badger]

Re: Stupid Meters & tones!

Hi Michigan Badger: You're welcome. A couple of things here: You asked if you could entirely trust the iron mask on the Soveriegn. I wouldn't trust anything on a Soveriegn. The meter on my Soveriegn was laughable. Just a series of black led's. That's how I learned that meters are stupid.

Observe that on Garrett's totally top of the line detector, the InfiniumLS, there is no meter. Sure, they could of added a neat looking meter with pictures of gold bags and silver coins, but they didn't. Other than the technical challenge of developing a meter for a PI machine, they didn't want a gimmicky meter on their top of the line model.

That Umax rig sounds like a real nice combo. Why don't you care for DD's? One last thing: I've decided to go with a Garrett InfiniumLS. What is the link to the infinium forum? I thought I had it bookmarked, but now I can't find it. Thanks, and happy hunting. Stay safe.

The Infinium website is:

http://www.p2p-zone.com/infinium/viewforum.php?f=1&sid=52c25633a5bbd6b9107169d42c6fb9aa

I can use the DD coils okay but I just prefer the old concentrics. The DD seem not to pinpoint as well and they're not as deep as the same diameter concentric coil. DD's were mostly made for more open sites and ground coverage where there is less trash. I hunt very few sites like that.

I seem to get a better feel of the ground when I'm hunting with the concentric. Probably just because I'm more used to them.

The Bandido with 12x10 inch concentric is just another machine I've wanted to try. I never owned a Bandido before and want to see if it's as good as I've been told.

Badger

 

[Keppy]

Re: Stupid Meters & tones!

​

Badger........The Mono coils for the..Infinium ..i think they are Concentric coils or like Concentric coils or am i wrong on that.................................==Jim==

 

[bavarianminister]

Re: Stupid Meters & tones!

Pulled a Saint Louis Cardinals ring out of the ground today with the Ace250. The meter was bouncing all around - however it was consistant enough to entice me to dig it. I do believe that most people would pass this target up - if they were using the meter.

The Ace is a low cost machine - it intrigues me by the fact that the little yellow boy finds a lot of good finds. It is light weight - comparing it to the little Tesoros - it is about the lightest machine out there. If one can swing longer - one will make more finds.

Bavarianminister