Stupid Meters & tones!

[Michigan Badger]

Stupid Meters & tones!

How much do you love you detector's target ID features? Enough to pass up on a real diamond ring or deep valuable coin?

Did you know both visual and audio target ID features were made to work in air but not in the ground?

Simply recreate a real coin hunting situation in your coin garden and see what readings you get. Plant coins next to nails and foil (real life stuff) and bury silver at 6 inches or more.

Now try that "awesome" target ID machine on those puppies and see what it tells you.

I've been doing tests like this over the last few months and buying and selling detectors left and right. My conclusion is I've bought my last target ID gimmick. I may buy a machine that has target ID features but I won't buy it for those features. I'll buy it for depth and the fact it will work with those features turned off.

Facts:

Many targets read the exact opposite in the ground that they read in the air.

Deep dimes (over 5 inches) in mineralized soil often read and sound as pulltabs/foil/nickels/pennies or even as iron at extreme depths.

The tone machines are even worse. If you're using a tone machine, make sure you dig all IRON signals that are small in size and offer a tight signal. These are often deep old coins.

Many deep Indian cents read very much like foil.

SUM: Don't trust those stupid meters or tones! If possible dig everything that produces a tight small signal good from all directions.

You're welcome! Name your first seated dime after me.

 

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[TomNWMI]

Re: Stupid Meters & tones!

I totally agree about the meters just going along for the ride. But totally disagree with Massbaycolonist when he says he doesn't trust anything with a Sovereign. I've had mine find deep silver amongst square nails.
If there is a better detector for all around use, I want to know what it is. I will be purchasing another detector before spring, and would be glad to hear a good recommendation. Only reason I'm going to buy another is there are places I would like to swing a faster and lighter detector. I'll use it where I'm willing to give up some depth.

You need to try the T2. For old site hunting in heavy iron it will amaze you with what it finds that other detectors have missed. Its the first detector I have ever used that actually does what some others claim. "make your old sites new again"

HH Tom

 

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[Michigan Badger]

Re: Stupid Meters & tones!

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Badger........The Mono coils for the..Infinium ..i think they are Concentric coils or like Concentric coils or am i wrong on that.................................==Jim==

My understanding is they are one and the same Jim. I'm no expert but just do a lot of reading and experimenting.

 

[Willy]

Re: Stupid Meters & tones!

The mono coils for the Infinium are basically a single loop. I preferred the 5x10" or 3x7" coils for the Infinium. In regards to TID/notch.. I like it. I basically hunt at foil accept (sometimes lower) because of our nasty Canadian coins, but there are areas where I'll use notch or the ID. One example is Forest service rec. sites. Often, I'll find that some yahoo had been blowing off a whole whack of .22 rounds. The casings will be all over the place and cause a lot of grief. Also, there's all that melted aluminaum that I'd rather not dig. Missed/masked targets? Sure, but I'd rather give up a couple of coins than dig up a coupla hundred bits of trash. ..Willy.

 

[StogieJim]

Re: Stupid Meters & tones!

Hi,
Tones, meter, material id....... Reminds me of the saying. "A man with two watches never knows what time it is." For my part, keep it simple. If it sounds good, dig.

Jim

 

[thompy]

Re: Stupid Meters & tones!

MB i agree one of these days you will have to try a t-2 or F-75 when you are horse trading detectors. fast target responces to get inbetween the trash with the DD coil that does PP very well, would like to know how they do that thou, i dont use my display, set it too 2 tone and go, great audio on the T-2

 

[drywasher]

Re: Stupid Meters & tones!

It been my experience if the meter will lie to you and the tones will lie to you , i can do without that.
Same as i can do without a person that would lie to me.
I use a tesoro vaquero ,it tells me something is in the ground then it leaves it up to me to dig or not.
it never lies to me ,if i miss something good it's because i chose to miss it ,not some stupid meter or tone that lied to me...just my opinion and i'm gonna stick to it..
george

 

[Michigan Badger]

Re: Stupid Meters & tones!

It been my experience if the meter will lie to you and the tones will lie to you , i can do without that.
Same as i can do without a person that would lie to me.
I use a tesoro vaquero ,it tells me something is in the ground then it leaves it up to me to dig or not.
it never lies to me ,if i miss something good it's because i chose to miss it ,not some stupid meter or tone that lied to me...just my opinion and i'm gonna stick to it..
george

Yes, I agree.

Those tone and meter machines sound and look so good in air tests. Too bad it all changes in the ground.

Another myth is that DD coils are better than the mono or concentric coils. But we'll save that one for another thread.

Badger

 

[thompy]

Re: Stupid Meters & tones!

the tones are just a tool its up to you to dig or not, personally i like 2 tones or all metal, on my whites i would run them together, i like the DD coil on the t-2, seems to run smoother up in the mineralized groundswhere i look for gold, didnt care for the coupple i used with my whites though, no depth.

 

[Willy]

Re: Stupid Meters & tones!

I dunno, it probably depends on what you're doing. When I'm out prospecting I won't even consider using the concentric coil. Had an MXT with both the stock concentric coil and a 5x10" DD.. the DD was superior. The concentric would overload on the mineralization and had to be run at much lower sensitivity, whereas the DD could be maxxed out. There was a noticeable difference in the sensitivity to small gold, given the respective settings. Also, pinpointing was a lot easier with the DD insofar as targets would be just under the tip, which is all I could fit into some places. ..Willy.

 

[Farmercal]

Re: Stupid Meters & tones!

I have variable tones and a meter and a DD coil. I found a coin buried right next to a rusty nail just the other day. I knew the coin was there due to the tone and the location of the item on the meter and pinpointing with the DD coil was dead on. I have no problem using my machine and will continue to enjoy it and pull coins out of the ground. To each his own I guess. Anyway, somebody has to use these machines or the manufacturer would have designed it for nothing!

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Re: Stupid Meters & tones!

This topic is similar to "LCD vs no-LCD....". I just posted my perspective on that thread.

Yes it's true, that a coin next to a nail, or a various other moderating factors, will skew your TID. But it's all in odds.

Example: Several of us descended on a certain inner-city junky San Francisco park, that was known for having deep silver (barbers, etc...). Most of the hunters were electing to pass shallow clad, tabs, foil, etc... and try to hone in on the deep silver. But another hunter BRISTLED at that thought, saying "you might miss a shallow coin a gopher brought up" or "maybe a coin is next to a nail, so you better dig everything", or "you might miss gold rings", etc....In his mind, he could "get it all", since he wasn't consciously going to pass either deep silver OR shallow gold. But it's like Las Vegas: If you get a perfect pulltab signal in a junky inner city park, what do you think it's going to be? Here's your 2 choices: 1) a pulltab, or 2) a gold ring that just happened to have a perfect pulltab signal? So by the end of the day, guess who had the most old silver? Guess who had spent the most time digging tabs and foil? As for shallow gold rings, I'll concede that rings mimic aluminum. I figure that if I'm looking for gold rings, I'll just go to the beach (lakes or ocean) rather than think I can strip-mine turf.

This is just one example of where creative use of "meters and tones" can help fill your goodie bag with a higher ratio of goodies by the end of day. Not perfect, just increasing the odds. It would be like playing blackjack, and having in your hand 19. Do you "hold" or do you "take another hit"? Of course you hold! But wait!!!! that next card the dealer holds *might* be a one or a two! So why not take another hit? It's all in the odds. Same thing goes for metal detecting, when time is limited and targets are prolific.

 

[Charlie P. (NY)]

Re: Stupid Meters & tones!

I like that blackjack analogy. With a detector what you're gambling is your time to hunt. If you have the luxury of indefinate time you can dig every hit and vacuum an area. If you have an hour or two and want to cherry pick you can move fast and gather much with a good ID detector.

But to best use an ID detector you have to know that you're playing averages; just as the manufacturer did. The marketing departments know they can send a deck of paint paddles with coins glued to them and a clerk can "WOW!" a shopper by demonstrating "Look, it shows "5¢" for the nickel and "10¢" for the dime.

So bring a 3¢ silver and a 3¢ nickel with you next time and see what Mr. Wizard comes up with. A designer/programmer has certain alogrithms that are programmed in, knowing that most of us are looking for small, round & flat objects (rings & coins) in the first 6" or 8" of soil. The detector companies know 98% of the time with a specific detector a "71", say, will be a clad dime. 90% of dimes are clad that you're likely to find where 90% of we detector users will be looking, so they design the unit to flash "10¢" whenever "71" comes up in the deal.

It's when you're going over a chunk of iron plow blade 30" deep and your detector flashes "1¢" because 35 lbs of iron at 30" triggers the circuits of relative conductivity similar to a copper Lincoln Cent at 6" that you may have a beef. That's where the better units measure ground balance, sense the speed of the coil, estimate the depth and time over target and reject the deep signal if so masked out. We're getting some darned sophisticated electronics in these units anymore (and one reason Minelab won't tell Sunray what is in the chip in the Xterra series so they can build a probe to work with it).

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Re: Stupid Meters & tones!

Good post Charlie NY

 

[Ant]

Re: Stupid Meters & tones!

I'll chime in and reflect on my land hunting. I will say that if you know your detector as I know my Gold Bug 2 you might be able to do like me and hunt next to and with the best ID machines and get better results, anywhere that is except deep turf.

I do better on gold and I stick with the best of silver machine on silver too. I'm not talking about turf hunting as I have said. I have proof and eye witnesses if you need me to prove it. I’m not knocking any machine, as a matter of fact I sent some of my damaged and unwanted gold finds to Midwest Refineries and I’m getting a SE with my check.

Tom, I find the same targets as the best machines find, except that I find more gold. I’m not bragging, I'm telling you the truth. It's even documented on the Finders Keepers TV show.

I’ve hunted with the best of hunters, ones that you know personally or know on line. Hunters like Fooleo, Jim (psycho kitten), CAL HUNTER, Ray of California, Dana Point Val, Staytuned (Jason), Captain FE, Robert from Hemet, Doug. I have also hunted in the same area and have seen Dana Point Mike, I want to meet him, and he’s a cool dude in my book. Feel free to ask any of them how my machine performs in my hands, and what my finds look like.

Most of the hunters I have mentioned have seen what I find using my Gold Bug 2. I have hunted other demos where I saw CAL HUNTER, Kenny who is not on the grid, Thomas of Riverside and his brother, and a few other Riverside club members and my result are always the same.

So who is to say who can do what with what machine Tom? I’d like to hunt with you at a demo site one day.

 

[Willy]

Re: Stupid Meters & tones!

The thing is, your basic TID unit measures the conductivity of a target and the higher the conductivity, the higher the tone. A basic detector with a plain disc. knob is really not very different. As you spin the disc. knob, objects of higher and higher conductivity get knocked out. Therefor, a person hunting with a multitone detector can hunt i all-metal mode and mentally disc. out the trash (low tones or high if gold hunting) whereas the person with the basic detector will have to sit 'n spin the disc. to find out whether the target is worth digging; either that or hunt with a higher disc. setting or dig absolutely EVERYTHING. That's another advantage conferred by multi-notch and/or tone; when hunting just lower conductors (gold rings/necklaces etc.) I, for one, don't want to dig up the higher conductors and couldn't care less if I'm passing up some pocket change or silver toe rings. I want the high dollar gold goodies. Knocking out zinc penny and above makes for a more pleasant detecting experience and can allow me to dig more high value stuff during the time I have to hunt.
When it comes to complicated algorithms and such for ID'ing targets, I don't think that most detectors have any such thing. What the manufacturers most probably do is figure that a certain object generally reads at a certain conductivity level and then print the label (or program the icon) showing such. It really doesn't mean much. It's basically eye-candy for the ignorant. On the other hand, take a detector like the XTerra70.. it just has numbers corresponding to where a target falls on the conductivity 'scale'. A pulltab might read at 16, or might not. That's for me to figure out. A bit of experience with the ground I'm hunting over will lead to my figuring out what reads as what.
When all is said and done, what I'm trying to get across is that there's very little difference between the TID and basic detector when it comes to 'ID'ing' targets. Moving the disc. knob till pulltabs are disc'ed out (either hunting at the level or spinning the disc. to ID), is really no different than having an ID that says, let's say, 16. Both are conveying the relative conductivity of the target, except that the TID does it faster than the 'knob spinning'. ..Willy.

 

[Michigan Badger]

Re: Stupid Meters & tones!

Good post Ant.

My whole point in the beginning wasn't meant to say that tones and meters are totally worthless. I was saying they can be misleading and cause some to miss good targets which they do. Even devout meter readers will attest to this fact.

It's amazing but the things that made the great finders of the 70's are the same things that make for the best today.

Badger

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Re: Stupid Meters & tones!

Hey Ant, I'm up for a duel Looser buys the 12-pack at the end of the hunt, right?

 

[Ant]

Re: Stupid Meters & tones!

Hey Ant, I'm up for a duel Looser buys the 12-pack at the end of the hunt, right?

That a bet. Before it's to late I want to hit FO at the end of March or begging of April . I'll let you know.

 

[guzz1]

Re: Stupid Meters & tones!

I think that the meter is just another tool that you can use in your arsenal of stuff. If you use it in conjunction with own ears and listen for the tones I would think there a great reference tool . I wouldn't just go by the meter alone . Just my 2 Cents for what its worth .. Guzz1

 

[Michigan Badger]

Re: Stupid Meters & tones!

I think the meter is just another tool that you can use in your arsenal of stuff. If you use it in conjunction with own ears and listen for the tones I would think there a great reference tool . I wouldn't just go by the meter alone . Just my 2 Cents for what its worth .. Guzz1

This is true and sometimes you can't trust your ears either.

Tones, meter readings, and even signal quality can change as targets get deeper.

Most detectors do a pretty good job down to 5 or 6 inches (coins and rings) but at about 7-8 inches things really can change fast.

Indian cents can sound and read just like iron.

The whole original point I was trying to make is that when one gets down to the depth where the best stuff is, that's when meters and tones can become very deceptive. For places where the finds run shallow (3-6 inches), the meters and tones usually (not always) do a fair job).

The deeper silver gets the more it looks like iron to a high quality meter.

When I find a "hot spot" for old coins I usually work that small area in all-metal mode or with very low discrimination. This has paid off many times.

Badger