disillusion

[MrDude]

In all fairness I have logged in under another username.

I have been active on this forum for some time but I feel to get an honest answer out of some of the more experienced among us I would remain unknown. Please I just want honest answers not advertisements for the machine your using.

I took the day off and lined up 5 sites to go hunt, 2 where new and the other 3 have always proved to be productive. I spent 5 solid hours hunting with good results except for the 2 new ones which someone beat me too by evidence of filled in holes.

So here is my disillusion, I have a name brand high dollar machine that I have used for 1 1/2 years and though was the greatest thing since sliced bread. I just received a name brand cheep machine in the mail as a backup just because I thought "hey I need a backup just like everyone else."

Well this backup blew away my high dollar machine, and man I feel sick about it. Grant you the high dollar machine goes deeper by a an inch or two but the new one turned out to be a coin hog that could sniff out coins in a pile of trash. It was like the coins jumped out of the ground with little effort.

The new machine has changed my whole mind set about metal detectors.

All day I was just sick and disillusion about the high dollar machine; but man I had fun with the new machine.

Should I face up to reality and pawn off my high dollar machine on eBay and take the proceeds and purchase the big brother to my cheep backup or should I spend more time learning my High dollar machine that is a icon in the industry?

I won't tell you who makes the machines so don't ask, I just want your honest opinion.

 

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[Keppy]

I should also add this for the benifit of those new to the hobby and those with very limited cash.

The Chinese machines sold on ebay (not associated with any major company) can be fun to play with but remember they're basically "throw away" detectors. This means they have basically zero resale value.

I've been buying them along side my major brands for about the last 7 years. I still have the 1st model and it still works fine.

Just wanted to add these thoughts.

..MB , i talked with the seller American Hawk in N.J. and they do repair work on them they told me.....................But about selling them you are right no resale value..............==Jim==

 

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[MrDude]

Update:
Long story short I needed to find some peace on this subject, so I decided to approach this from a scientific point of view.
I thought about air test but thats not going to prove anything. So I decided to go to the park with some golf tees and both detectors.
What I did was mark off a 5x5 area with red tees and then detected it with the high dollar machine and marked the targets with white tees, then back over it with low end detector. Guess what the low end detector was better at IDing the targets including the nickel at 5". They both ID accurately it's just the low end was more sure of it's self and faster.
I repeated the test 4 times and used the hash marks on my digging tool to measure depth.
I used factory presets with foil and below notched out.
My conclusion I wish I would of bought the low end detector first and saved a bundle.
Oh and it's not Chinese built.
It was a hard lesson learned.

 

[Michigan Badger]

Yes MrDude I'd guess you're using a BH of some sort, Ace 250 or the Silver uMax. I might add that I personally suspect some of these are at least partly made in China for the major companies. The clear exception would be the Silver uMax which is totally manufactured here (using Chinese, Jap, etc. parts).

Your recent discovery has been discussed a lot over the last 12 months via private personal PM's. I'm constantly getting either PMs or emails about this.

But getting back to what I wrote earlier, these low cost machines can't find everything some of the high priced machines can find and that's really the point.

Sandman and many others with great experience have written many many times that no one detector does it all and that's what we're really looking at here. For shallow rather easy finds the low cost detectors can be very impressive and maybe even better than some high priced machines (at finding the shallow stuff).

I really like the GC1023 and I bet I'll also like the GC1030 when it arrives--BUT! The low cost detectors will not replace my Explorer...that's for sure. That XS is something to behold and if you watch Today's Finds for any length of time you'll see what I mean.

Is there price gouging in our hobby? definitely! Many brands and models are way over priced. In fact, the low cost Chinese units are also getting this way. The GC1023 that sells for $80-$200 costs the importer maybe $35. And I'm predicting it will go much higher as the word gets out. The 1030 will probably be $300 by this time next year because the word is spreading fast about it.

It's true that low cost detectors can find 90% of potential finds out there. But personally I want that last 10% because I figure that last small percentage might just include a seated, bust, or even a gold coin. This is why I use different detectors at a hot site. As things stand right now one of them will be a Minelab.

 

[MrDude]

I think what we're dealing with is better technology.

Which would you rather have a computer that's 5-10 years old and still cost a $1000 or the newest one off the production line for $500. I think that puts it in better perspective.

 

[Michigan Badger]

I think what we're dealing with is better technology.

Which would you rather have a computer that's 5-10 years old and still cost a $1000 or the newest one off the production line for $500. I think that puts it in better perspective.

Yes that's true and what's even worse is the Chinese are really doing more research and development than most (not all) of the major detector makers.

Granted--what the Chinese, Japanese, Koreans, etc, are doing is grabbing the best ideas from all the major companies and putting them into lower cost products made with a great deal more precision (as in Jap cars). Soon they'll move out into true advancements because they'll pass most of the competition. Never underestimate the oriental business mind. The east needs to advance quickly and they now know it will be by technology and political infiltration.

 

[EasyMoney]

Just like cars, computers, and the same goes for metal detectors, etc, the western world often invents something while the Asian world improves it - while the West is inventing yet something else or the Asian world to improve on. It seems to be a cycle.

Here is an interesting forum site testing a cz-70, cz3d, Coinstrike, and a Minelab Explorer against each other. The person doing the testing is a dedicated Minelab user, yet his tests and opinions seemed to show the cz3d as being a bit better overall performer as a discriminator of deep targets than those of the other three Fishers, and the one Minelab. Not by much though.

I read another report on yet another forum somewhere about 6 months ago where a well-known detector engineer stated that the cz3d with it's 10.5" coil outdid several other high-end detectors including Explorers and F-75's for all-out depth when they were equiped with equal-sized, same-type coils. This is of course - as with ALL detector writeups, peculiar only to those particular tests and may show different results in other places and in other soils. I don't have the address any more, but it can probably be found with a bit of Googling.

Here is the site for the former test:

http://www.thetreasureleague.com/CZ3D_Tips.htm

I prefer to have a cheap, lightweight detector to hit the top stuff and then use a blanker mode (on a higher powered detector) and just ignore the loud or surface items after that. It seems to be a very effective formula.

EasyMoney

 

[Michigan Badger]

I had a CoinStrike for a while but never really took time to learn it because I just didn't like the feel of it. To me the whole rig seemed awkward and the coil rod wobbled. Even though it wasn't all that heavy it seemed heavier than the Explorer. I only had $200 into it because I traded a guy my F2 for it.

I only kept the CoinStrike a month or two before selling it.

To me the most important thing is location. If I'm at a hot spot I could even use a shovel and screen if I had to.

After that I want a light weight (fun to use and super fast) machine that gives good clear discriminated signals. So far the best I've found for this first step is the GC1023. I used to use the Silver uMax (with stock 8" coil) for this first stage of the hunt but the 1023 is 1-2 inches deeper and is better able to discriminate out nails.

Then with that out of the way I do a very slow Explorer search. Not having mastered the Explorer yet I can't really comment on its abilities but I can say this--that sucker is deep and it does find things the 1023 and Tejon and GT all miss. Why it does is still a mystery to me. Maybe it's the machine or maybe I just hunt more carefully with it since I tend to respect it more than the low cost machine?

If I've learned one thing about this hobby it's this--the game is mostly psychological.

 

[EasyMoney]

Yes there is certainly a psychological/philosophical aspect to this sport. Most people are pragmatics and selfish indviduals, so someone looking in the dirt to find 58 cents in loose change makes about as much sense to "them" people as does spending $280 on a fly rod, or $850 on a bicycle.

One man asked me why I would spend $800 on a metal detector if i wasn't finding a lot of "money" or gold jewelry with it.

My answer? "Do you own a boat". "Yes' he said. "How much did you pay for it?" "about $10,000".

"So, let me get this right" I said. "You spent $10,000 on a boat, plus tackle, plus gas, plus maintainance, beer, a motel, bad restaurant food etc. right"

"Yep".

"Well you must have caught a lot of fish to pay for it".

"I understand now", he quietly said, and then walked away.

The old Garrett Deepseeker, the old Fisher 440 and 550d's, certain Compasses, and certain cz's have shown me the greatest coin depth I've ever seen in a vlf or BB multi I've ever encountered in all-metal and mostly in discrimination too, and I've had a whole lot of different detectors in my hands in my life. Yes, this is some pretty bad soil here and I prefer fast machines and have little patience for slow ones, but even in milder soils the above have almost always produced the best depth, differing soils producing different results in different situations.

This goes back to your statement MB, and mine too.

"Beware the man who hunts with only one gun, he knows how to use it".

My favorite? The cz-70 when it's easy hunting, and the Compass R&C when the going gets rough or when looking for tiny gold. The cheap Chinese one works well and even better for some things too though. Overall, I would take the Compass if I could only own one metal detector though, it does it all, and very well and deep too. When detecting recently with a lady friend down in the river bank - she wanted to trade her using the Fisher for my using the Compass. She was VERY impressed with it. So was I.

Easy$$$

 

[The.Boomer]

MB and Easy you two should start a rag so the rest of us could read your conversations all the time. I always look for what you guys are saying here at T-Net. But I would pay to get your insights on a regular basis. Till then Guess I'll have to just keep cheating and going into your profiles to see what else you've posted recently.


P.S. don't be scared I'm no stalker, it takes to much time

 

[Michigan Badger]

Okay Easy this does it...I've got to buy the next good Compass I see online.

This is one of the few brands I haven't used in 40+ years of detecting.

What is the very best of the Compass models?

Can you list them in order No.1 being the best?

 

[mpostma]

Ok I will weigh in.

I had originally a White's 5Id, loved it. I found a lot of coins with it, still use it on occasion.
I wanted a backup machine, and found a deal on a new Ace 150.
Now I also bought a new Minelab Quattro, and a 5" coil for it.

My point is this. There are times when each of the detectors seems to do a better job. But if I hit highly mineralized ground, or a real trashy area that has goodies mixed in, It is the Quattro with the 5" coil all day long.
The Ace was hot in some areas, but overall I just didn't like it. I sold it to a buddy, and he loves it. Does well with it.

I hunt some real trashy areas, old fairgrounds etc. The Quattro isn't real fast, but it is rock solid.

My point is you will probably find conditions when the cheap detector just isn't getting with the program, and your old standby will still perform.

Just my two wheaties.
Mark

 

[EasyMoney]

Again, my point well taken again. There is no one single detector that satisfies each and every one of us. And I have seen some people operate the same detector better than another person too, but there is still no constant because conditions change each and every step we take as we walk the soil or sand.

Badger, I have seen all kinds of people rate the old Compasses, but they all but the little Compass Liberty 2000 were premium in their days, and some still are. The 77 Auto Legend with it's 100 Khz is now a cult classic due to it's best discrimination against iron that was ever made. However, it is not a vlf ground cancel discriminator. The most diverse of the Compasses were the X-70, X-80, X-100, and X-200, but the heaviest too. If my memory serves me well, the X-200 had a flip switch to change the amount of filters used but later on the 3 or 4 filter system was employed in later detectors. Some people claim that the x-100 and x-200 were the deepest, but there is no official documentation to prove that. The GoldStar was a fairly deep machine, well-balanced and had a decent analog meter.

The au52 and the au2000 were the best nugget hunter to be found back then and DOMINATED the nugget hunting cult for at least 15 years. The au2000 had a flip switch to change between 52 Khz for milder ground and finer gold, and 13.77 Khz for deeper, larger nuggets in bad ground. I like the little oval coil, it's a dandy.

But the deepest of them were the GoldScanner Pro, and the Relic & Coin. They are actually the same detector with a different name tag.

The best coinhunters were the CoinScanner Pro and the XP Pro, the CoinScanner Pro being the most versatile and popular, including having a night light.

The real current beauty of the Compasses is that Keith Wills can pipe in extra power for a very reasonable fee (around $50 unless the detector needs a bit of extra repair). In all fairness though, those modified ones are real hairy in really bad ground if the sensitivity is turned up too high, so a word of caution certainly is due. Most people don't understand this at all and still want to run the things wide open like a runaway Mack Truck on a steep grade without a pullover spot to escape to. Keith states that if you can't get at least 8" on preset and at least an 11" air test on a copper penny running full power, that the mods have not been done to the Sc Pro, or other Scanner series - at the factory (he worked with Compass on that) or afterwards. Here is where Keith states his point. Sept 06, 2008, 5:15 PM:

http://n2.nabble.com/Mods-on-Compass-Scanners.....-td950614.html

There is no single Compass being better than another. Most do run on 13.77 Khz though.

Here are my own personal choices. Other people may not prefer it this way.

#1 A Relic & Coin for all-around excellent use, one made before the Compass fire, perhaps the deepest of all. It should have the Keith Wills mods, out of the factory or afterwards.

#2 An au2000 for strictly nugget hunting

#3 A CoinScanner Pro for the best coin hunting, and preferably with the 6" searchcoil

#4 And an X-200 for all the toys, to including being a decent fine-nugget hunter.

Easy$$$

 

[bigolhorns]

My toys. If one of these won't find it, it can't be found.
The X-200 was bought new by me at the Compass factory (I live 4 blocks away). We spent an entire afternoon in the Compass test garden tweaking it before I brought it home. It can put any "hyped" new machine to shame. It will air test a half dollar at 22" with correct ID. You can change frequency (6 or 14 khz) without changing coils. Choice of one or 3 filters.
The Gold Strike is for the chips in tot lots.

 

[Keppy]

That X 200 is a real nice detector i missed getting a X 100 last month been kicking myself ever since...........==Jim==

 

[Mr.Jody]

This is what a Highly seasoned MD'ing vet told me "The high $$ machines have more bells and whistles than the cheaper ones"..........."about like buying a Mercedes and a KIA"both will get you where you need to go, but one looks better and rides better"

 

[Michigan Badger]

That X 200 is a real nice detector i missed getting a X 100 last month been kicking myself ever since...........==Jim==

Ya, I was bidding on the same machine. I missed too.

 

[Keppy]

That X 200 is a real nice detector i missed getting a X 100 last month been kicking myself ever since...........==Jim==

Ya, I was bidding on the same machine. I missed too.

MB , You was bidding on that X 100 also a few weeks back it was a nice looking detector............. i bid again with a nice bid 7 seconds before it was over and was to late i took to long went over my 7 seconds...............I just got a used ...Minelab Quattro MP... i never used one don't know any body that had one and do not see any thing on treasurenet about them........I thought i would try one out see if i like it or not i could like it.......==Jim==

 

[mpostma]

Hey Jim,
I use a Quattro. It does a great job for me. It has a bit of a learning curve to it. Many people get frustrated with the machine before they get used to it. I will say that a 5" coil for it makes it a killer machine. I have found more silver this summer than ever before, and more Buffs and IHs too.
My reccomendation is to make a test garden. With the 5" coil I have been digging coins from the same holes with lots of nails lately.

Good Luck,
Mark

 

[Michigan Badger]

That X 200 is a real nice detector i missed getting a X 100 last month been kicking myself ever since...........==Jim==

Ya, I was bidding on the same machine. I missed too.

MB , You was bidding on that X 100 also a few weeks back it was a nice looking detector............. i bid again with a nice bid 7 seconds before it was over and was to late i took to long went over my 7 seconds...............I just got a used ...Minelab Quattro MP... i never used one don't know any body that had one and do not see any thing on treasurenet about them........I thought i would try one out see if i like it or not i could like it.......==Jim==

Jim I've never used the Quattro but I hear all the Explorers are about the same.

There's a whole section devoted to the Quattro on the Finds Forum. But as you know those other forums often don't get much action.

The thing that makes Explorers more of a challenge than most is the fact they have so many different sounds. The cheaper tone machines with only 2 or 3 tones are much easier to learn.

But with all tone machines the secret to finding the good stuff with them is to learn how to interpret the signals when the clear coin high tone begins to corrupt toward a ferrous low tone.

See, all tone machines only give distinct clear tones down to about 3 to 6 inches deep (depends on the quality of the machine). With the Explorers you're looking at about 5-6 inches deep for a clear easy to recognize high tone with crosshair pinned to upper right cornor. But the actual Explorer coin sized target signal may well be going 12-14 inches deep. The deeper the signal travels the more ferrous sound and the less nonferrous sound is reported back to the detector's receiver.

What the guys who use Explorers don't tell is that these clear tones are often junk aluminum, trash wire, or shallow clad/zinc. With the Explorer your listening for that place where the clear nonferrous tone begins to corrupt into a ferrous tone. This means you're deep and maybe dealing with an old coin.

This is what makes the super deep Explorers such a challenge and thus the big learning curve.

See lots of people buy a Minelab or other deep brand and all they listen for are those clear-as-a-bell COIN tones. This is why some of them dig mostly clad.

I'm experimenting now with Chinese low cost machines that have tones (2 or 3) and using them has helped me a lot with the Explorer. The 2 tones cheap machines are great trainers to learn the transitional change from nonferrous tone to ferrous.

My little gumball machine 1023 can pull nonferrous objects from 10-12 inches deep because I've learned that a heavy ferrous tone with a tiny bit of nonferrous high tone spiked into it can be a very deep nonferrous object of some sort. This same basic process is used by the Explorer masters but they also consider the position of the crosshair plus the sound made.

Hope I didn't confuse you too much.

Badger

 

[BuckleBoy]

Just to add a little more confusion, I regularly dig targets with low cost machines that my Explorer XS and the others in that class missed.

I made a thread here about this back a couple years ago.

I figure the super power machines tend to null out over deep trash while the shallower low cost detectors ride over the deep trash and see the coins and rings nearer the surface.

Deep trash masking is a very real problem. I mean old rusty junk 15+ inches under the target.

No detector will see a coin if it's too close to large iron. But a lower sensitivity machine with smaller coil can see these targets closer to large iron than the high power machines can.

See, power (depth) sometimes works against us.

This is why we dig out all the BIG iron!  This is 100% correct.  You can't hear anything but the iron until the iron is removed.  I have yet to see a machine that can ID deep iron underneath or over top of a brass button accurately.  I've gotten teased by KirkPA and Company about digging the iron, but I seriously doubt that "the iron would stay in the ground and the finds would still be in their pockets" at the type of Iron-infested spots I hunt.   

You're exactly right.  It's one of the reasons I like the stock coil on the Tesoro Silver uMax so much--it limits my depth in undisturbed ground--where all the deepies are big junk anyway!  I used to use my 1266-X in those spots, and dig the iron, and now I hit it with the uMax and stock coil--and when I return with the Fisher, there is nothing but deep trash left. 


Regards,


Buckleboy